blonde poker forum

im just wondering if anyone is due to fly in the next few days.in light of todays events would it put you off,it would me.
i wonder what its going to be like for all the brits returning from vegas.

Mrs Jagster is due to be speaking at a conference in Cincinnatti early in Sept  (Thats the US city not the Scottish poker club!   lol)

She was already saying she didnt want to go this morning!

I'm glad I'm not flying, simply because of the delays.

The threat does not put me off flying.  It never will.  

Agreed.

I don't personally see what difference todays events make - there was a threat before today, there will continue to be a threat after today.  The threat itself won't stop me going me anywhere by any form of transport.

I agree too- the flights are probably going to be the safest they've ever been just now because of the threat

'Intelligence'? Wonder who's thesis they've ripped off this time? This is all a fabricated smokescreen to take the focus off of Israel/Lebanon IMO. I'd fly anytime anyplace, no fear.

Yea, I agree.  It is scary, but if we let these nutters control our lives, that's them won in my opinion. I will carry on as normal.  Unfortunately, they will be around for the rest of my lifetime at the very least, it is the sad reality of living in today's society. Unfortunately a peaceful life is not the case anymore.

We're just LUCKY we happen to live here. We can talk about a peaceful life but there's always a war going on somewhere and the poor buggers who pay the price have had eff all to do with creating the chaos.

Loving the news reports. "Tension is growing in the airport, it's mainly women not being able to take their handbags on as hand luggage"  :D

lol :)

you sound just like someone i know,i agree its convinient.

true but im a nervous flyer anyway

Tis a bit. Sickens me to think of all the civilians gettin blown to bits and all the soldiers returning home  minus their limbs for no good reason. Safe journey when you do make your flight. :)

If the 9/11 or 7/7 bombers had been apprehended in the days leading up to the attacks some people would have been jumping up and down and saying how wrong it was blah blah blah. It seems the only proof acceptable to these people is actual video footage of the terrorists  doing the job but by then they already blame someone for not stopping them. Never anything to help stop it or help it not happen again.

Sandy

I`m just back from glasgow airport where i was put through the security wringer and then on and off the red aye to heathrow after 2 hours of waiting from 5.30 this morning

no hand luggage , only allowed wallet and change. which was daft cos then you went into wh smith bought a book and took it on the plane...

mobiles, books, papers, keys all had to go hand luggage and be checked in...que the scrummage at the conveyor belt getting it back...although i had to laugh at all the identical dell hand luggage going round the carousel...best of luck there folks.

cant stand london for work anyway so i`m not too unhappy....although BA were keech at information.

 '' those who give up their liberties for security deserve neither liberty nor security. ''

 dont listen to the fearmongering propaganda bullshit.

 is this the same intelligence service who said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq capable of attacing us in 45 mins?

 or the intelligence services which shot Jean Charles de Menezes 10 times in the head - an innocent man.

 or the intelligence services who shot the lad in the house in London yet found no '' Biochemical weapons '' inside the house. ?

 why are they called intelligence?

 nothing they do ever seems intelligent to me.

doesnt all of the above just mean they're due to be right soon?

And if they're only right 1 time in 5, or 1 time in 10, won't that be enough?

 '' doesnt that mean their going to be right soon ''

 '' if their right once out of 5 thatll be enough ''

 that makes it ok then.

 roll on ID cards , biometric scanners , armed police patrolling every airport , train and bus station , cctv watching us 24/7

 its all worth it if they stop the big bad terrorists , why should we have a life?

 why should we have privacy and freedom , when '' they '' could strike at anytime.

 you give up your freedom if you want , but I for one certainly wont be.

and yet when challenged by armed police he decided to be on his toes at a time when everyone was quite nervous/triggy happy- he was definately an intelligent bloke.

Maybe if they had acted on "intelligence" before 9/11 or 7/7 thousands of people would still be alive. Carry on reading your Guardian tomatoes and maybe one day you can fulfill your dream and  march on parliament waving your CND badge.

 sure, and you keep living in your little bubble , and believing everything the government tell you, theyll keep you safe.

If thats what it takes, a minor inconvenience, to make sure I dont get blown up while taking a flight or train journey then so be it. Its not going to take my life away it is trying to protect my life you cretin. More and more people seem to think the government are to blame and not "them" (meaning the terrorists). Any man who is willing to give up his own life in taking yours is very hard to stop, if the intelligence gets it wrong a few times yet stops just one attack they have done their jobs. 20 people have been nicked today- in standard cells or 4 or 5 people thats 4 or 5 planes (around 2000 people) could have been brought down.

Whether it is true or not is irrelevant.

The fact is there is heightend security and the level of awareness has been topped back up can only be good, and, for the cost of a couple of extra hours at an airport and not having your hand luggage! Seems fair to me!

As it happens I dont think there is any doubt they believe something was happening - which is obviously different to actually finding a load of explosives.

Throwing out patchy generalisations of who you perceive the other person to be really improves both your arguements...

Maybe we should be looking at root causes?

Instead of backing invasions of people we're not too keen on for spurious reasons?

Identifiable police? Or a bunch of white guys with short hair?

I wasn't saying this to justify ineptly executed attempts by the police to protect the country, just to highlight the fact that they're due a result soon down to trial and error.

What i will say is that i dont usually have cause to sympathise with the police but with regards to the charles de menezes case i thought they were in an extremely "difficult"  and unenviable position.

 they werent in a difficult situation , the intelligence service identified the wrong guy and executed him.

 rooky says its good the alert level went up , and fair to have to wait longer and have no luggage

 what exactly is good and fair about having your life controlled by fear ?

I don't know why people put Iraq and this in the same argument. I don't think we should have gone into Iraq let alone still be out there. The things that our being done worldwide by extremist groups aren't anything to do with wars, there are a small number of religous nuts who will do anything to prove their beliefs.
Many years ago I was in a building blown up by terrorists. The IRA was really a business and although they "fought" under the banner of religion it was still run as a protection racket/money making organisation. The terrorists nowadays just want to cause as much carnage as possible and dont care who they take out, as long as you are an infedel you are a fair target.

Maybe the fact that we were terrorised for many years by the IRA explains our willingness to accept the word of our government in dealing with these would be mass murderers.

If a few hours hassle at airports and extra security checks in place at big events lessens the chances of me or my loved ones being cold bloodedly murdered, then it is worth EVERY SINGLE SECOND !!

 and it isnt just a couple of hours extra in an airport ,

 they are searching old ladies shoes for bombs, making young mums drink baby milk to prove its not anthrax etc etc.

 what kind of society is this?

who is trying to control our life with fear?
Is it the government who is trying to blow things up or the religous nutters?
I would rather spend an extra hour in an airport and be sure of getting to my destination in one rather than a million peices. So what I cant take hand luggage on.

The type of society in which young men of 18 years think that strapping x amount of explosives to themselves and killing as many people as possible will take them and their families to martyrdom...  have you been living on a desert island for the past few years ?

well, I for one would much rather wake up to today's headlines than headlines that 100s of people have been killed in a series of explosions on planes.  I must admit my first thought was 'what news are they trying to bury today?', but I'm fairly satisfied now that the government appear to have done a good job today of foiling an attack.  Perhaps I'm being naive in the extreme, if so, so be it.

Is there any age restriction on being a terrorist? Mums aren't being made to drink milk to prove its not anthrax- the new wave of nutters were going to use a "liquid explosive". All fluids are now banned from being taken onto planes. Obviously they wont stop a mum taking milk on for her baby but lets just make sure its milk shall we. If they just stopped asian mothers people would be going mental so they have to have the same rules for all mothers. If they only searched the shoes of black men aged 18-35 (almost all the peole who do this type of thing fall into these parameters) then people would be shouting racist police. They have to check everyones shoes because of the PC society we live in.

Did the families of any of the 7/7 or 9/11 attacks back the invasions ? Did i ? Does it really matter/make a difference ?

I am neither involved in the "reasons" for the attack nor the attacks but neither am i after timing like the goons who know it all after the event or who never admit when a government/agency gets it right.

Sandy

Gonna quote your sources on that Ariston? Just because you believe something, or the government tells you it, or the press say it, doesn't make it a fact.

Lets' not get too political, correct or otherwise, please folks.

Goons? Fair enough... My point still stands.

As for your rhetoric, how many of the civilians killed in Afghanistan or Iraq backed the 7/7 or 9/11 attacks? (ps I reckon more of the survivors in both countries backed the 7/7).

My point which you missed was while we're trying to stop attacks, we are also creating the climate for more &  it doesn't make sense.

I had my shoes checked at Las Vegas airport, as did everybody going through security.  No problems with that, I had clean socks on.

I'm all for extra security.  I have nothing to hide.

wow I find its amazing how these threads seem to race off, everyone seems to have an opinion on how the goverments are doing things wrong, or how best to justify the madmen in their quest for carnage.

The last time I checked we lived in a democracy, we have the ability to change what we do not agree with, o if you want to take the risk of becoming incinerated over the Atlantic then we should ask the taliban or al queda to start their own Airline. Bomber roulette just for the people that want to rush through check in and leave their lives in the hands of maniacs.

The most shocking part of the news I heard this morning was that the suspects are all home grown, British men of asian origin, If people do not like this country or its values, why not move to a place where you would enjoy their values.

I think its about time i gave up on the UK, Take my family to some place like the Canary Islands, nice and remote and self contained.

ATTN - Bin Laden,

Mission complete,

return to base

The media create the hysteria things and yes it doesn't make sense to have it hyped up so much. But the media don't care as they have a chance to increase numbers.

I don't actually think it matters who backs what. If the governments think it's right to do something they will. If a terrorist wants to do something they will. Reasons don't really matter to either side.

Many Afghans and Iraqis have been show on tv supporting the forces. Perhaps even those killed pre war in their own countries might have too.

Sandy

#
Piss off

Tomato ffs wake up, get off your high horse...

In the big picture the inconvinience anything today causes will not effect you or have any long term effect on anyone - if these thing had not been it place they could have had massive consequences for millions of people.

There have been roads closed just round the corner from my house.  I don't know too much at the moment as I'm at work.  From what I hear there have been houses evacuated in the area. 

It's not an area I go to much nowadays but I have a lot friends idown there and used to help with the community youth club.  Seems strange for this sort of thing to be going on lacally to be honest.

a very good point only those with something to hide will be inconvenienced.

yes the "intelligence" have made mistakes but we have to put faith in them to do thier job otherwise who else is going to do it? do we justsit back do nothing?

mistakes will be made but lives will be saved in the long term and i think today they have foiled a very serious impending attack on the scale of 911 where thousands of innocent lives couldve been wasted.

instead of ripping them apart the security of this country should be comended!

Ban him!

And whilst we are at it, lets hang all convicted of murder. Theres no innocent here, and after all, 1 in 10 is a good figure, right?

mrf which area are you talking about?

Ignorance abundant! Why do you think there are so much troubles in the middle east? It all started with this little thing called the British Empire.... strike that, it all started with the crusades......................

Of course the government is to blame. The US more than the UK but we are the yankies bitch so that makes us just as guilty.

I haven't even started on the oil.....

Yes they should be commended, and yes they do make mistakes, but a lot people seem to think that the intelligence services should be connected to the media. You hear about all the mistakes because it's a good story, you only hear about a minority of the successes because they either affect day to day life - such as this threat, or they lead to a prosecution.

And I think it goes back a bit further than the Crusades anyway.

High Wycombe, specifically Micklefield, also Totteridge, whcih are both by me but also Downley in the West of the town.  There was a Helicopter hovering over the train station this morning and there were more ni Micklefield.  It depends what you read and listen to but there are a couple of roads where mates of mine live that have been cordoned off.  And a local school that I do a bit of work with has been set up as an emergency post.

go hug a tree and read your guardian pinko

sky news say there have been a number of homes evacuated in that area

I don't read the guardian. I don't read any newspaper as a matter of fact, and I rarely listen to the news. The media has a lot to answer to in this country for causing far too many problems. BBC 24 is about my limit.

But take a look at the facts before you start your own ignorance fueled crusade. Religion has nothing to do with the problems we see in the world, it is always politically motivated. Religion is being used as a veil to shroud those motiviations and to brainwash the minds of young naeive men.

As for Newmanseyes comment, I do agree. If people move to this country they should be embracing our cultures and whilst I don't deny them their own religious beliefs and freedoms, they made the choice to immigrate here and if they don't like it then they should leave.

From the IRA to Al Queda, eventhing they do or did was for political motivation and personal gain, regardless of what banner they claim to be fighting in the name of their god through.

That's what I've heard.  I've read that it's a road that I know a few of the kids I have worked with in the last few years live on.  Apparently the woods that back on the houses there are being thoroughly searched. 

According to the local paper's website, the worlds media is descending upon Wycombe today.  Should be fun.

throughout history it has been proven that most wars and conflicts have been driven by religion.

how mickyt can say this one isnt is bbeyond me.

yes i dont deny that its also politically motivated but to say religion isnt involved is in my opinion pure blindness or ignorance!

There is some sense in what you say but starting it by stating,


isn't going to fill many people with confidence of your awareness of the bigger picture.

perhaps he should START reading newspapers and watching the news :)

Up until relatively recently politics and religion have virtually been the same thing, and in some cases still are.

Wrong Mikky - Religion was never used as a reason by the Irish Republicans - it was introduced as a divisive measure by the Government to divide the Land Leagues etc and divert them into fighting eachother.

Dont bring the IRA into this argument as you will show how little you know MikkyT. The IRA was completely different from these nutters and fought under completely different circumstances.  
You say its the governments fault (or the US governments fault). Please explain how Tony Blair or Dubya Bush caused British Muslims to blow up our tubes/buses or how they caused 20,000 + americans to be hit by 2 planes in the twin towers. Dont say I have ignorance fueled crusades on this, if you want a debate on terrorism lets have one. Explain why you dont think religion comes into the current troubles, religion has been used for centuries to control the masses- now its being used to kill innocent people by numpties who think they can be martyres.

Not true, religion is used as an excuse. The real reason is land/oil/riches/power or a combination thereof. You're right, religion is involved, but its not the motiviation behind the act.

More often than not its the vechicle used as recruitment into extremist groups however. But no holy book be it the Bible, the Torah or the Quoran teaches that violence is right. In fact all three of them preach the opposite and to be peaceable amonsgt your fellow man regardless of his status or belief.

Thanks for proving my point Rod, I owe you a pint. My point is that its nothing to do with religion. And I know I'm right, so really everyone should stfu cos Im right lol.

Thanks for proving my point!

Religion has been USED.

Wasn't Rod's point that the IRA never claimed religion as a motivation?

it has proved how wrong you are. You tarred the IRA and al queaida with the same brush when they are the exact opposite. What is happening now is all about religion. The young muslims believe by blowing themselves up and taking infedals with them they will be looked after in the afterlife.

rid the world of religion and the world will be a better place imo

I never said they had claimed byt the IRA, I said it was claimed and or used as an excuse or as a vehicle for recruitment - it doesn't matter who made the claim.

Total shite. The young men believe themselves to be fighting a religious jihad after being brainwashed by some clever mastermind with a grudge against the west. That mastermind uses religion as a tool to recruit these young naeive men into his little gang for political purposes, training for his various suicide missions against political targets in the west.

Religion is being used, religion is not the cause nor is it the fault thereof. Stop looking for excuses where there are none to be found. The world would be a better place without politics (and without people, but I think thats too much of a utopia to look forward to)

It may not be the leaders religion that is causing them to brainwash people, but it is the bombers religious beliefs that are being exploited which allow them to be brainwashed. Therefore it is still down to religion - without their religion they wouldn't be so easy to manipulate.

If the world would be a better place without people maybe you could make a start for us instead of spouting shit on a subject you clearly know little of.
We are all under threat because of the government obviously, its all Blairs fault (you numpty). I dont know how much you know about the troubles in Ireland but I can promise you they are nothing compared to the current troubles. The internal battles in Belfast/derry look like a childrens party compared to what Al Quaieda would do given half a chance. I dont support any government and am not religious in any way but I am glad the intelligence services are doing their best to catch these people and stop attacks. I have a 7 year old son and would like to think he can catch a bus without the risk of getting blown up.

And I don't think the IRA have ever claimed to be anything but political.

Gentlemen, whichever side of whichever argument you are on, please debate without flaming....we don't want to censor or delete and I recognise that religion is one of those subjects that is going to ignite passions

Even allowing for that, keep it civil please!

Thank you

Who mentioned blair? I mentioned politics and oil. I didnt mention the names Duyba and Blair, I think that was you....

Tighty I always try to keep it civil but when numpties come on as good as saying its our own fault we are being attacked I can't bite my lip. Of course its the governments fault our planes and trains are getting blown up- what a crock of shit. As long as people like that are allowed views like that it allows people to get away with stuff. People should know right from wrong and although I believe everyone is entitled to their oppinion they should realise that some people are just wired wrong. As long as people sympathise with the likes of the extremists they will be allowed to hide and ultimately thrive.

sorry u didnt say it was dubya or blairs fault you said it was the US government or the US governments bitches (ie blair). Suppose I shouldnt have jumped to conclusions. That one sentence says its our own fault we are a target in your eyes.

ariston...I am not apportioning any blame anywhere on this...People hold different views and they can be expressed on here in their entirety as long as they are not flaming others, racist, sexist or illegal

Please everyone keep it civil and cut the derogatory comments about others. Thanks

I have to agree with Russ, although not with his tone ;-)

Why people are worried about being on CCTV when they are out in public, or having ID cards, is beyond me. Makes our lives easier and more importantly makes the security service job's easier. I have nothing to hide, and because of that they are not likely to want to start spying on me!

You should be appointing blame tighty- this thread is clearly the governments fault ;)

Right or wrong has nothing to do with blame. It is our fault but I agree it doesnt make it right.

Blaming the US government and the UK government does not infer blair or bush. I think the UK was first called the bitch of the US back in the 80's when Margaret Thatcher was playing lapdog to Ronald Regan. And the political problems during that time where also relics of history and remnants of the cold war, and going back even further... you know where I am going with this.

Don't put words in my mouth when I know fine well what I am talking about. Consequences of our actions are quite visible through the passage of time. Whilst it is quick and easy to claim no part in our nations history and political dealings and lump the blame squarely at the foot of religion, am I sorry to say that this is both wrong and ignorant.

Because this country has a history of making laws for one particular thing and then after a period of time they are used for a purpose they where never intended (nor even considered at the time of passing though parliment). Laws and devices intending to protect our security will no doubt be used for other purposes in 2, 3, 5, x years time...

not many ideas put forward by those disagreeing with government policy on how better to do things.

Everyone disagrees with certain parts of government which is relatively easy to do, but faced with the current threat of global terrorism what would you guys, if in a position of power, do, or like to see done differently?

And theres no underlying pop at any one person in this question I'm genuinely interested to know how you'd go about detecting, preventing, punishing, acts of modern day terrorism against the western world that differs from the current governments approach.

I believe back in the 80's that Regan was the bitch to Old Maggie, If my memory serves me correctly that is, I was forced to watch weekend world, and I'm sure that old Ronnie was maggies lapdog.

if I'm wrong start the flaming and build a wicker man!

Wasn't there a study which last week claimed that the largest factor in most conflicts had more to do with nationalism as opposed to it religious ideals???.

I'm not sure which is scariest, the guardian readers believing we are in a big brother state or the daily mail readers who are prepared to give the government carte blache to do anything it deems appropriate to battle the "evil of terrorism". Well actually I do know, I'm more scared of the daily mail readers  ;D. Obviously in this time of terrorism there is going to be height-ed controls and whilst this is fully acceptable lets not be naive to think that a government does not abuse such an opportunity to introduce controlling measures on it's citzens, you only need to see some of the bizarre laws the USA have introduced post 9/11 to understand that. You can also look back at the USA public records which show that in either the 50's or 60's they planned to bomb a Cuban ship as to ensure a tense political environment and one of fear for it's people. Fact is a governments greatest control tool is fear and as such they use it to their advantage. It is for this reason why we can't allow any government carte blache and must demand a degree of accountability. Got to say I love the "nothing to hide" argument, bring on compulsory DNA registration at birth and why not tagging for all  ::). And don't get me started on the joke of ID cards. Looks to me like it's the public that will help create George Orwell's vision to become reality.

Whilst I'm a strong believer in civil liberties I recognise in these times that cetain scarfices need to be made create a getter degree of public safety so can not critise all the measures the government introduce and accept there may be mistakes in achieving their goals. At least in this country I can express my concerns as and when I fell appropriate.

I truly believe that is a fantastic Idea, also it should apply to every person entering the country as either a legal immigrant or asylum seeker.

LOL i dont think so ...   

Seriously though imagine a database of evryones dna.... it would certainly speed up the crimes solved rate, and act as a detterent to future criminals.

ID cards are surely just around the corner, and i welcome them.

I would genuinely like to listen to anyone who is opposed to ID cards and hear their reasons why.

Because I would lose it

Then I would get arrested, and probably deported.

I am glad to live in a country that allows opinions such as those expressed here. For all our criticism of governments it important to remember that we live in a country that allows freedom of speech and that we are allowed to try and improve our way of life without fear of imprisonment or retaliation. I know we are not a perfect nation but I believe the majority of us want to live in peace. For this reason amongst many others I support any action that defends the innocent and prevents terrorism....Getting on a plane without hand luggage is not that great a burden.

I know the DNA thing is probably a bit off the track for the start of the thread, but I agree with a DNA register. How many rapes and murders could be prevented by having this information available? I know there will be the anti freedom lovies that will be against it, but the ones that would really lose are the wrong doers.
Going back to todays events, just thankful that the incidents have been prevented. Trouble is that terrorists normally want something that they know they can't have which makes negotiation a pointless exercise.

If they had your dna on file red they could issue you with another one easily enough. Why not have everybodies DNA on file? I would love to hear a realistic argument against this. Rapists, burglers etc could be identified immediately and law abiding citizens would have nothing to lose.

when you are born the government cant tell if your going to be criminally minded or not so when technology allows maybe the government can implant chips in our brains at birth that track our movements, just to keep an eye on those that become criminals later on in life of course!!!! ;)

We start life with basic freedoms that mean WE dont have to argue against the idea, YOU  have to argue for it!!!!

If I have to apply for an ID card, I'd have to use my driving license or passport to get it, meaning that that one of the latters was a perfectly good form of ID in the first place. If I already have a reliable form of ID then why do I need an ID Card? If I don't have any reliable ID then how can my ID Card be reliable?

Does anyone know if you can take laptops as hand luggage, flying FROM USA TO UK?!?!

Not sure, but really do not want to put it in the normal luggage.

doubt you can mate.

certainly cant the other way at the moment

Wow Kev, I didn't think anybody would run with my tongue and cheek comment. Let's just say the car journey to BB3 might be interesting if we get onto this subject  :o. Personally I'd prefer to talk about pokergirlie  ;D

Why don't we hold details of our medical history on the proposed ID cards. Do we then present these upon request to a future employer for them to determine if you are suitable for employment based on your medical history. Maybe the future employer will make a decision based on your families medical history.

ID cards operate in Spain but didn't stop the Mardid bombings. Are illegals going to carry such cards, will the underworld not just learn to forge them. The benefits being claimed by the government are questionable at best and many have been shown to be false, that's one reason why the introduction of ID cards are being put on hold even by our totalitarian new labour government. Guess they are wanting for the public's fears to increase so they can then crowbar them into public domain, roll on another 9/11 or 7/7 or even a government created state of fear such as the planned Cuban ship bombing.  

ID cards work out to be nothing more than yet another stealth tax. For starters many people can't afford the true cost of the proposed card which some have suggested could be as much as £100 per person. Thats potentially £400 for the average family. Let's force people into the povety trap or maybe imprision them for falling to purchase a card. Some may be able to afford them but many can't. Anyway any quick cost to benefit analysis shows these proposed ID cards to be of little or no value.

Will ID help protect us is questionable, will they impose on our civil liberties, most defintetly. Fear factor is not good enough reason for me for the introduction of yet another government control tool.

It is also shown that the biometric identification won't work effectively (I think the figure was about 60% accuracy at best). And that every organisation involved in the areas which the ID card is meant to help with all agree that the ID card won't make any difference, (immigration, terrorism, organised crime etc.)

My fundamental objection to the ID cards is that I am a British Citizen - just because I am - I don't think the government has the right to say you effectively have to pay to become a citizen. The Roman Empire had a distinction between a citizen and a non-citizen, I would hope we've moved on a bit since then.

On a practical level some figures have been suggested that it might cost individuals up to a couple of hundred pounds to get one, I can't really afford to spend a couple of hundred pounds on something which isn't a necessity - and for the reasons I've put above, I don't think ID cards are a neccesity.

Good post Diceman, just read as I posted this.

its not a goverment control tool, its a joke.

How you gonna MAKE someone get an i.d card, put them in prison till they agree, then how you gonna make sure they carry them about their person, even then what difference will it make.

BTW you have to PAY for it aswell LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao

Are we not in danger in creating a state were you are no longer innocent until proven guilty but guilty until you prove your innocent. The problem is if you assume the worst from a society it is easier for the members of that society to live to those expections. Do we not already see this in the downfall of many young adolescent males who elect to rebel against society and live up to it's negative preconceptions. Naturally most of us grow out of this but it looks like people what to tarnish others for life for the most minor of crimes.

If this is the case the future looks bleak.

Paul, from what I saw on the news about what's going on in US airports you are better off putting it in your normal luggage.

 ;iagree;

Pay $4 and get your case wrapped in plastic so the contents are less likely to get nicked.

Tx everyone.

1984

Here I am in my hotel room, due to fly back home tomorrow. Today's Virgin flight to Gatwick will leave seven and a half hours late - hopefully things will have got a bit back on schedule by tomorrow.

As ever with things like this, views quickly become polarised. What is interesting from watching the US news, and comparing with what's on the BBC site, is how quickly the US government were to mention Al-Qaeda in connection with this. No British government official, police or security representative has said anything like this - merely stating the facts as they are (people arrested in connection with airplane plot). The main reason for this is not to jeopardise any potential trials.

Of course, it is highly convienient for the US government that they can put Al-Qaeda back in the forefront of people's minds. In the two weeks I've been out here, the US news channels have had continuous coverage of the Israel/Hezbollah confict - a conflict in which the US armed forces are not involved. Meanwhile, Iraq continues to descend into civil war, all the while with US troops on the ground, yet it warrants no more than footnotes on the news. Given how parochial US news normally is, I find it incredibly interesting that the news networks would volunteer to give blanket coverage to a foreign conflict above one in which US forces are involved. You can draw your own conclusions as to why this might be.

As I type, a CNN reporter has heard from a 'US government source' that two of the suspects arrested met with an Al-Qaeda member out in Pakistan. 'Hey folks, they're still active - you're still in danger'.

On a completely unrelated topic, there have just been primaries for US senate elections, in which a prominent pro-Iraq war Democrat was beaten by an anti-war Democrat. Polls showed that the US public had turned against the Iraq war and were ready to vote against pro-war candidates in the Senate elections. Virtually all Republican politicians are pro-war. A heightened risk of terrorist activity can only help the Republican cause, as voters naturally rally around right wing parties in times of threats.

To those who are in the 'it's all a goverment plot' camp, Ariston's right - it's time to put the Guardian crossword and half-fat, decaf, cappuccino down and get out into the real world. There is a malevolent influence upon young Muslims in the UK. People who are very religious are, by definition, easily influenced and prone to not question information they are given by people in positions of power, and religious figures are very powerful in the Muslim community. Those who have political agendas can easily subvert their acolytes to do very terrible things in the name of their cause.

Long-term, the answer is to get people to think for themselves about things, and promote logical thought and personal information gathering as tools with which people make decisions about their lives. This will be difficult as long as people voluntarily infect their children with religion, which promotes a 'I will tell you all you need to know' agenda, closes people's minds and leads them to shun new information.

Are you referring to a Bejamin Franklin quotation here? If so, I think the old man's been slightly misquoted.

"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

The key part for me, is the word essential.

Exactly how essential is hand luggage?

That and it was written in the 18th century, by a rebelious colonial.  :D


As for successes of security services, how many jumbo jets blew up yesterday?

The Brasilian lad that the police shot to bits DID NOT RUN....he WALKED onto the tube..sat down then got his head blasted off. (I know how I'd feel/act if that was my brother)

I remember when the news broke and there was an 'eye witness' being interviewed on the scene saying that the guy ran into the station....this was a lie (may be the mystery witness just wanted to be on the telly or was paid, I don't know but his account of events was a fabrication and the beginning of the whole coverup once they realised they'd executed an innocent man).

IMO ID cards won't prevent the kind of terrorism we're facing. If all people were made to feel welcome I reckon communities/groups would police themselves better and identify 'bad apples'. As it is, the police turn a blind eye when told about scummy drug dealers and gun/kife carrying thugs so what chance of anyone coming forward with information on 'shady' characters who might be involved in, or know about, terrorist plots?

I've been thinking about growing a beard again, just for a change for a few months but last time I grew one everyone asked me if I'd 'turned muslim' so at the risk of looking like 'fair game' in the eyes of cops with guns I'll just keep reaching for my gillette. :)

Clean shaven, Will.

Why the fixation with planes? If terrorists wanted to create real 'mass murder' surely all they'd have to do is carry out a chemical attack on the tube.

As far as I can see, you can't defend against it. The only way you stop it is if they give you an opportunity to by behaving like nutters and running their mouth off over the phone etc. All I know is I'll walk any place, take any plane and if they get me, they get me. I won't be dictated to on that level.

If there were a nationwide DNA databse, I wouldn't want any info gained from it to be used as evidence in court.

It would be ridiculouly easy then, to frame people for crimes that they didn't commmit. Not happy with the police wielding the power of sending anyone they don't like down for whatever crime they can't be bothered solving this week. Just need to save some of that saliva from when they last spat at you.

It could point the authorities in the right direction though, to obtain more concrete evidence.

George Orwell's satire on CCTV and the like.

He was just afraid everyone would find out about his paedophillic tendencies.

Not really, I got that from a paper I didn't read.

 ;iagree;

They closed off part of another road last night, I've heard they were searching the house of a guy I went to middle school with.  I also heard last night that residents near the woodland area police have been searching have been contacting police for a while now about strange cars going in and out of the area, but have been told that the police were aware and not to tell anyone. 

Thing is I've heard so much now about all this stuff that i'm getting mixed up between what my mates who live round there have said and what has been released from the media.

But it doesn't really seem to have had a massive affect.  to be honest most people just thought they were drugs raids, it's all the norm round here!!

I think all the car activity in the woods was Collymore and co. :)

Nah that's not the dogging area round here. ;)

Just looked at the list of suspects and I'm pretty sure that it is the guy I went to school with.

I'll bow to your superior knowledge! :)

Re the school thing, I reckon we could make a weird and wonderful list of all the people we were at school with (not necessarily 'famous', in my case they're probably more 'infamous'...they have a point when they say it's the quiet ones you should be wary of!)

Agreed

Its not just the mass murder though - its the images they want too.

It kinda bugs me how short-sighted the tarrorists are being. Governments will never give in, no matter how many civillians you kill. All that does is make martyrs & make the Government's position stronger.

Attack the economy & there will be peace talks quicker than you can say Stormont...... I rackon you could cripple the economy for a couple of days with 20 guys, some crowbars & some petrol cans and lighters. No deaths just a big loss.

I'm curious as to how you have peace talks with terrorists who express no goal or agenda other than to kill the "infidels"

These people are not the IRA.

That's the danger we're heading down - demonising the other's religion and motives while we are led by people who believe God wanted them to attack Iraq.....

I don't know of any group currently named as a threat who have declared their only agenda as 'to kill all infidels'.

I agree, i really don't see what people worry about.

I'd still like to know who the government is to approach for these peace talks.  Sounds like a great idea.

I'd think stopping support for Israel's invasion of Lebanon, getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan would be a start. The Spanish withdrew their troops and have had no trouble since.

It's hardly like the Muslim states are trying to dictate how our politics should be run is it?

I still like the idea of peace talks.  Around a nice big table, some coffee and biscuits, maybe a few ginger nuts?

So you're unfamiliar with the manifesto of the Hamilton Girl Guides then.

Watch out if a brownie gets on a bus.

Sarcasm's fine, whatever pickles yer gherkin, but as the Governments of the US & UK constantly claim to be targetting the leaders of the terrorist organisations, they seem to know who they'd need to talk to.

Of course we can just try to wipe them out, causing more fear among people who are not in a position to fight back (except by using guerilla tactics).

That's not what Rod P was suggesting and mockery won't make it so. Our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan only helps in creating a climate that helps the fanatics gain support at a grassroots level. I know who I'd be backing if I was an Iraqi who'd had his family killed/raped by a 'liberating force for democracy'. Labelling these people as insurgents is just slick media politrickery and I don't buy it. Our troops have no business in the region.

You're right, they should email Osama and invite him around for a BBQ and a few cold ones.  That'll clear the air.

That'll be the end of the discussion then  ::) Thanks for the informed opinions.

No, no.  Thank you.  If I were you I'd get on to Blair (when he's back from his hols) and Bush with your peace talks suggestion.

That's genius.

MrMoves, Rod is trying to have a discussion with you, and whether you agree with him or not, (and I'm guessing the latter ;)) you could show him a little more respect.

What's with the ridicule? It's not 'genius', it's simply what 'we' are already doing...or trying to...Osama isn't an Island so behind the scenes 'we're' in continual 'talks' with those who may have influence/information but there are so many conflicting/overlapping agendas in play that the picture becomes very blurred. Our military presence in the region and the bogus justification that supported the invasion does nothing to help the diplomatic process. IMO we're not going to agree on this as we have totally different perspectives and we'll look at the same data and come up with different stories. That's cool with me but there's no need for 'ridicule'. That'll just creat a climate of abuse. Kofi's never around when you need him!

Tighty, stick your blue beret on.

Primarily cost

 /:-| /:-|

Next best thing

Today, Matthew, I am a Nato peace keeper, patrolling the forum.

Hope you're wearing a flak jumper...   :D

< writing floppy's name on my "naughty boy" list >

hehe....lights, camera, cue music, wave to audience, dry ice (or whatever it is they use these days)  

Incommmmiiiiing!!!

 ;D Nice one Floppy - Usual Nato anyway - too little too late ;)

This is one of the most interesting threads I've seen here, shame I've joined in slightly late.

The form of Islamic extremism is not a terribly old phenomenon. The goals of Al-Qa'eda are difficult to define as it is not a rigid hierarchical organisation however this letter from Al-Zawahiri (described as Al-Qa'eda's main ideologue) to al-Zarqawi gives an interesting insight into their objectives:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/10/dni101105.html

Essentially this letter would suggest that having UK and US troops in Iraq is ideal for Al-Qa'eda both because it brings the "infidel" geographically closer to the training grounds but also in a wider strategic sense.

Long time since either of us has been classed as "too little"

Sadly true. :(

Still, with dazzling wit, sparking repartee and all, if we were slim as well no other bloke would have a chance  ;goodvevil;

So true my friend, so true.

Thanks Jinky, that's an enlightening letter.

helllllloooooooooo boys!

 rotflmfao :-*

It is a very interesting letter, it does explain a bit more than what you see on the news as to what their actual aims are. I liked his use of language it makes it much easier to read than the turgid stuff our politicians and religious leaders use, although I can't say I'm familiar with


I'm assuming that this is the literal translation of the Arabic rather than al-Zawahiri actually not knowing the proverb to start with.