Title: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 17, 2006, 11:20:47 PM It's simple, Chavs get right on my wick and i'd like some input into the way they should be dealt with!
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Sark79 on September 17, 2006, 11:22:46 PM Is a Chav the same as a Ned?
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 17, 2006, 11:23:43 PM What's a Ned Sark? lol
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Swordpoker on September 17, 2006, 11:24:03 PM Ned Kelly was a chav?
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Sark79 on September 17, 2006, 11:24:39 PM What's a Ned Sark? lol lol, it might be the same as a Chav. What is a Chav mate :D Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: mikkyT on September 17, 2006, 11:25:34 PM There is a difference but in simple terms, yes.
Ned is a non educated delinquant. Same as a scally in manchester/liverpool or chav in the north east and south Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Sark79 on September 17, 2006, 11:25:46 PM Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 17, 2006, 11:26:10 PM They can't help what they are. All those punishments seem a tad harsh.
We just need to stop them breeding, cut their nobs off. ;topofclass; Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Sark79 on September 17, 2006, 11:26:35 PM There is a difference but in simple terms, yes. Ned is a non educated delinquant. Same as a scally in manchester/liverpool or chav in the north east and south ok, I got you. Now I can make my vote Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 17, 2006, 11:31:07 PM I could be here all night trying to define a Chav rotflmfao
They can often be found wandering our Town Centres dressed in fake designer labels or sports tracksuits. The Chav woman tends to wear a gold necklace with a clown dangling on the end of it whereas the man's necklace will be finished off with a lovely pair of golden gloves! They are usually unable to construct a sentence using more than 5 words, and when they do use 5 words it's because they've used 'urrrgh' 4 times. Their diet consists of McDonalds and Cider in between visits to Argos to obtain the latest must have item from the widely acclaimed Elizabeth Duke Jewellers They're grrrrrrreat! Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 17, 2006, 11:32:24 PM They can't help what they are. All those punishments seem a tad harsh. We just need to stop them breeding, cut their nobs off. ;topofclass; Love it! ;applause; Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 17, 2006, 11:33:03 PM It's simple, Chavs get right on my wick and i'd like some input into the way they should be dealt with! next time they get on your nerves smack em round the ear with your walking stick and tell them how brave you were in the first world war. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Sark79 on September 17, 2006, 11:33:52 PM I could be here all night trying to define a Chav rotflmfao They can often be found wandering our Town Centres dressed in fake designer labels or sports tracksuits. The Chav woman tends to wear a gold necklace with a clown dangling on the end of it whereas the man's necklace will be finished off with a lovely pair of golden gloves! They are usually unable to construct a sentence using more than 5 words, and when they do use 5 words it's because they've used 'urrrgh' 4 times. Their diet consists of McDonalds and Cider in between visits to Argos to obtain the latest must have item from the widely acclaimed Elizabeth Duke Jewellers They're grrrrrrreat! I have seen them :D Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: SupaMonkey on September 17, 2006, 11:34:38 PM I think Chav is supposed to be spelt Chev (or this is how it was originally spelt) because it stands for Council House Environment.
Please can you add 'all of the above' to the poll. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 17, 2006, 11:40:17 PM They should be dealt with the same as anyone else, and not pre judged because of their background or their appearance.
Pre Judge Prejudice Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: SupaMonkey on September 17, 2006, 11:41:35 PM What about because they put bricks through windows, are racist and steal car stereos.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 17, 2006, 11:41:43 PM They should be dealt with the same as anyone else, and not pre judged because of their background or their appearance. Pre Judge Prejudice :goodpost: ;iagree; Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Gryff on September 17, 2006, 11:41:46 PM I think Chav is supposed to be spelt Chev (or this is how it was originally spelt) because it stands for Council House Environment. Please can you add 'all of the above' to the poll. No. Its a shortened version of Charver. You've been had my friend. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 17, 2006, 11:42:45 PM They should be dealt with the same as anyone else, and not pre judged because of their background or their appearance. Pre Judge Prejudice Have you ever had to stand near these people in a McDonalds? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 17, 2006, 11:43:51 PM What about because they put bricks through windows, are racist and steal car stereos. PRE judged!!!!! you KNOW that EVERY single one of ,who you would call a "chav", has behaved like this? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 17, 2006, 11:44:31 PM They should be dealt with the same as anyone else, and not pre judged because of their background or their appearance. Pre Judge Prejudice Have you ever had to stand near these people in a McDonalds? "these people"...............what a disgusting thread!!!!!! Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 17, 2006, 11:45:21 PM What about because they put bricks through windows, are racist and steal car stereos. PRE judged!!!!! you KNOW that EVERY single one of ,what you would call a "chav", has behaved like this? Definately bolt!! As that is the behaviour that qualifies them as a Chav Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: SupaMonkey on September 17, 2006, 11:45:30 PM Dammit, you're right.
I heard the chev thing on a documentary. Oh well, i'm confused :dontask: Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 17, 2006, 11:45:37 PM They should be dealt with the same as anyone else, and not pre judged because of their background or their appearance. Pre Judge Prejudice Have you ever had to stand near these people in a McDonalds? With respect, with my background, I have been described as "These people" all my life. I don't like it. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 17, 2006, 11:47:49 PM What about because they put bricks through windows, are racist and steal car stereos. PRE judged!!!!! you KNOW that EVERY single one of ,what you would call a "chav", has behaved like this? Definately bolt!! As that is the behaviour that qualifies them as a Chav maybe we have a conflict in symantics then because thats not my understanding of the term chav Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 17, 2006, 11:49:33 PM That sort of behaviour certainly isn't unique to Chavs but I would say is a trait they possess
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Colchester Kev on September 17, 2006, 11:51:28 PM Dont blame the kids, they are the sons and daughters of people who have no parenting skills, they dont know/care where their kids are or what they are doing... Just because kids wear the same sort of clothes , it doesnt make them all bad .
Read your posts again and think back to the 50's with teddy boys, the 60's with Mods and Rockers, the 70's with Punk rockers... I am sure people were making the same sweeping judgements then ... Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 17, 2006, 11:51:38 PM That sort of behaviour certainly isn't unique to Chavs but I would say is a trait they possess And that, my friend, is exactly what prejudice is. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 17, 2006, 11:51:52 PM That sort of behaviour certainly isn't unique to Chavs but I would say is a trait they possess which is it then, a trait or a prerequisite for definition? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: SupaMonkey on September 17, 2006, 11:52:49 PM Red-dog, i'm sure you are not a chav.
I used to live in broxtowe nottm, the place was full of chavs and they lived up to their stereotype. There were some non-chavs and you could instantly tell they were different just by looking at them (they were often picked on by the chavs). In my eyes the definition of a chav includes someone who breaks into your car etc. The guy who lived next door to me had his wheelie bin burnt and a brick thrown through his window just because he was asian. The kid who did it lived right across the street and he couldn't do anyhting about it. They all stick together and do these types of things together, that is why they are stereotyped. If they did not exclude themsleves from society, form their own groups and then do these types of things, it wouldn't be possible to stereotype them. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 17, 2006, 11:56:16 PM Can I still chop the junkies?
(http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/340614/2/istockphoto_340614_antique_tailor_s_scissors_open_with_path.jpg) For the record, I don't brand someone a ned or chav because of where they live, or what they are wearing. I reserve the right to judge people by their criminal behaviour though. no excuse for terrorizing a community. Kids will be kids, it's the over 25s that I have a problem with. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 17, 2006, 11:56:27 PM Dont blame the kids, they are the sons and daughters of people who have no parenting skills, they dont know/care where their kids are or what they are doing... Just because kids wear the same sort of clothes , it doesnt make them all bad . Read your posts again and think back to the 50's with teddy boys, the 60's with Mods and Rockers, the 70's with Punk rockers... I am sure people were making the same sweeping judgements then ... Point taken Kev, for sure, but I wasn't around to experience whatever went on back then and can therefore only vent my frustration at what goes on now. I agree that it is down to the parents.... so make your vote and decide what we shall do to these parents! Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Karabiner on September 17, 2006, 11:57:11 PM As I understand it the term applies to wannabe yuppies, like Delboy and Rodney.
People who think that they are cool but are actually the complete opposite. But it seems that I may be wrong .... Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 17, 2006, 11:57:29 PM Red-dog, i'm sure you are not a chav. I used to live in broxtowe nottm, the place was full of chavs and they lived up to their stereotype. There were some non-chavs and you could instantly tell they were different just by looking at them (they were often picked on by the chavs). In my eyes the definition of a chav includes someone who breaks into your car etc. The guy who lived next door to me had his wheelie bin burnt and a brick thrown through his window just because he was asian. The kid who did it lived right across the street and he couldn't do anyhting about it. They all stick together and do these types of things together, that is why they are stereotyped. If they did not exclude themsleves from society, form their own groups and then do these types of things, it wouldn't be possible to stereotype them. Have you ever heard Gypsies described in similar terms? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Wardonkey on September 17, 2006, 11:57:38 PM Supamonkey you miss the point entirely.
Red is objecting to the bigotry displayed on this thread, not to being labelled a 'chav' himself. This thread say more about those willing to label someone as a 'chav' than it does about anyone else. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 17, 2006, 11:59:47 PM Red-dog, i'm sure you are not a chav. I used to live in broxtowe nottm, the place was full of chavs and they lived up to their stereotype. There were some non-chavs and you could instantly tell they were different just by looking at them (they were often picked on by the chavs). In my eyes the definition of a chav includes someone who breaks into your car etc. The guy who lived next door to me had his wheelie bin burnt and a brick thrown through his window just because he was asian. The kid who did it lived right across the street and he couldn't do anyhting about it. They all stick together and do these types of things together, that is why they are stereotyped. If they did not exclude themsleves from society, form their own groups and then do these types of things, it wouldn't be possible to stereotype them. rotflmfao very well presented justification for modern day prejudice including the advocation of stereotyping with a mind to disparage a particular group of people and uncorroborated examples of anti social behaviour ascribed to "chavs", astonishing! you've convinced me. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: lynx5.0 on September 18, 2006, 12:00:21 AM these Ned's/chavs stab and rob my friends for fun and steal are racist now not one of the options given can do justice i would happily pull the trigger my self because these people are the scum of the earth i rate them the same as shit on my shoe.
an eye for an eye. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 18, 2006, 12:01:51 AM I'm baffled by the response to this poll. I am from Chatham where it is said the Chav culture began and it was a label that was originally given almost in a kind of jovial manner but has since become known nationwide and applied across all our counties. My poll was simply designed to create some humour and get some fun ideas, it should not be taken too seriously :)up
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 12:02:15 AM Jsut realised I get all my stuff form Argos.
Am I a chav? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 18, 2006, 12:04:25 AM Jsut realised I get all my stuff form Argos. Am I a chav? rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 12:04:45 AM these Ned's/chavs stab and rob my friends for fun and steal are racist now not one of the options given can do justice i would happily pull the trigger my self because these people are the scum of the earth i rate them the same as shit on my shoe. an eye for an eye. what you sitting around on a forum for then? sounds like you know the ones that robbed your freinds, go and get them. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 12:05:21 AM That is to say, I understand why this thread has caused offence.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Claw75 on September 18, 2006, 12:06:42 AM this thread is absolutely shocking.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 18, 2006, 12:07:57 AM Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 12:08:31 AM I'm baffled by the response to this poll. I am from Chatham where it is said the Chav culture began and it was a label that was originally given almost in a kind of jovial manner but has since become known nationwide and applied across all our counties. My poll was simply designed to create some humour and get some fun ideas, it should not be taken too seriously :)up You want everyone to get together and poke fun at a particular section of society. Don't be surprised if everyone dosen't join in. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 12:09:06 AM cos theres a poll that nemesis didnt start Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: SupaMonkey on September 18, 2006, 12:09:17 AM 11 replies have been posted while i've been writing this so it was supposed to be further up.
Ok fair enough, let me explain. The difference between a chav and a non chav is essentially ethics/morals. Chavs are generally kids who know they can get away with lot, they have no fear so they do what they like (unless they are by themselves). Chavs will stone your house/nick your car stereo where non-chavs know this is wrong and don't do it. As a consequence you find that one group do not like to hang out with other and obviously the two groups don't get on. One group does not like to be associated with the other hence they dress differently, act differently etc. I understand you are saying this is bigotry but then i must ask you why you thing this prejudice/discrimination exists. It is neither sexist nor racist and to my knowledge the term did not exist 3 years ago (ish). Therefore i think the stereotype must be warranted by its very existence. Red-dog, i don't understand your question (about the gypsies). Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: brad.strider on September 18, 2006, 12:10:12 AM theres this book "to kill a mocking bird"
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 12:13:23 AM Red-dog, i don't understand your question (about the gypsies). It's a simple one. Have you ever heard Gypsies described in similar terms to the way you described Chavs in your first post? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 18, 2006, 12:13:49 AM I'm baffled by the response to this poll. I am from Chatham where it is said the Chav culture began and it was a label that was originally given almost in a kind of jovial manner but has since become known nationwide and applied across all our counties. My poll was simply designed to create some humour and get some fun ideas, it should not be taken too seriously :)up You want everyone to get together and poke fun at a particular section of society. Don't be surprised if everyone dosen't join in. In hindsight, I can see how some people may see it as you do RED.... but I can assure everybody that it was not designed for that purpose Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 12:14:01 AM A wee bitty miffed with myself.
Didn't spot the inherently iffy tone of this thread and joined in. Sorry Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: lynx5.0 on September 18, 2006, 12:14:09 AM these Ned's/chavs stab and rob my friends for fun and steal are racist now not one of the options given can do justice i would happily pull the trigger my self because these people are the scum of the earth i rate them the same as shit on my shoe. an eye for an eye. what you sitting around on a forum for then? sounds like you know the ones that robbed your freinds, go and get them. sometimes we catch em sometimes we don't ;) Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: SupaMonkey on September 18, 2006, 12:14:16 AM I heard a discussion on radio 4 about the 'Chav' culture. I can't remember what was said but how non-pc can it be if bbc 4 are talking about it.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 12:15:22 AM I'm baffled by the response to this poll. I am from Chatham where it is said the Chav culture began and it was a label that was originally given almost in a kind of jovial manner but has since become known nationwide and applied across all our counties. My poll was simply designed to create some humour and get some fun ideas, it should not be taken too seriously :)up You want everyone to get together and poke fun at a particular section of society. Don't be surprised if everyone dosen't join in. In hindsight, I can see how some people may see it as you do RED.... but I can assure everybody that it was not designed for that purpose Thank you, well said. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Claw75 on September 18, 2006, 12:15:28 AM why? I think Red Dog has summed it up better than I could and I agree with everything he has said on this thread.
How many people would think it was acceptable if 'chav' was replaced with 'pikey' in this thread? In addition, these kind of discussons about vigilante 'justice' just wind me up. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: SupaMonkey on September 18, 2006, 12:19:04 AM Red-dog, i don't understand your question (about the gypsies). It's a simple one. Have you ever heard Gypsies described in similar terms to the way you described Chavs in your first post? The only time i have ever heard any derogatory about Gypsies is when i lived near Milton Keynes. Everytime the gypsies stay nearby (to the gym i went to) you were to told to make sures tyres (on 4x4s etc.) were put in your boot because everytime they stayed nearby those sorts of things went missing. However, the gypsies are a group of people who reside all over the world so it is not possible to make generalisations about them. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 12:21:55 AM Let's round up all the vigilantes and make them pay. ;goodvevil;
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 18, 2006, 12:22:26 AM This was the first poll i've ever started.....
Think i'll make it my last! rotflmfao Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 12:22:47 AM Red-dog, i don't understand your question (about the gypsies). It's a simple one. Have you ever heard Gypsies described in similar terms to the way you described Chavs in your first post? The only time i have ever heard any derogatory about Gypsies is when i lived near Milton Keynes. Everytime the gypsies stay nearby (to the gym i went to) you were to told to make sures tyres (on 4x4s etc.) were put in your boot because everytime they stayed nearby those sorts of things went missing. However, the gypsies are a group of people who reside all over the world so it is not possible to make generalisations about them. now i see where you're coming from, couldnt you have posted this at the start so the thread couldve been taken off and i couldve saved myself the time in trying to highlight your benighted prejudice. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Swordpoker on September 18, 2006, 12:23:44 AM I think there is a big difference between generalising about a type of community and a type of behaviour. Showing predujice about a particular community would be nasty and uncalled for but slagging off buckfast filled joyriders is fair game. Chavs are chavs because of what they do not because of where they're from.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Claw75 on September 18, 2006, 12:24:20 AM as everyone seems to have their own idea what a 'chav' is - from dictionary.com:
nothing about chucking bricks through windows as far as I can see... Main Entry: chav Part of Speech: noun Definition: the lower class; uneducated and ignorant people Etymology: perh. Romany chav child Usage: derogatory slang Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 12:25:11 AM these Ned's/chavs stab and rob my friends for fun and steal are racist now not one of the options given can do justice i would happily pull the trigger my self because these people are the scum of the earth i rate them the same as shit on my shoe. an eye for an eye. what you sitting around on a forum for then? sounds like you know the ones that robbed your freinds, go and get them. sometimes we don't ;) batmobile in for repairs that week? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Sark79 on September 18, 2006, 12:25:32 AM I thought a chav wore highland tweed jackets and dressed in fox hunting gear? I learn something new each day on here :D
I still want to know where Sam Becket is? He can't just disapear, he must be somewhere Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 18, 2006, 12:26:43 AM Everyday's a school day Sark ;topofclass;
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 12:28:26 AM I prefer the term Ned.
It's an ancronym for Non-educated delinquent. The non-educated part is a bitty dodgy. In itself that certainly doesn't make someone ungroovy. Look at Ironside, he's a good lad, never been to school. But the delinquent part makes it clearer what we're talking about. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Ginger on September 18, 2006, 12:32:13 AM The difference between a chav and a non chav is essentially ethics/morals. Chavs are generally kids who know they can get away with lot, they have no fear so they do what they like (unless they are by themselves). Chavs will stone your house/nick your car stereo where non-chavs know this is wrong and don't do it. As a consequence you find that one group do not like to hang out with other and obviously the two groups don't get on. One group does not like to be associated with the other hence they dress differently, act differently etc. Sounds like the perfect description of Chav/non Chav to me. Thankfully I have moved away from Chav Central now (council estate in Manchester) and no longer have these cretins on my doorstep every evening. I think it can be easy to generalise anyone under the age of 21 that wears fake labels or trackies as a Hoody or Chav, that isn't the case as they are and should be defined through their mindset/behaviour. I use to have a lovely girl babysit for me, and to look at her the word 'chav' would spring to mind immediately, actually she was a extremely bright girl doing VERY well in school, well manered (wouldn't use the PC or phone ever!!) and fantastic but strict parents. She simple use to like the clothes that they wore.... Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Sark79 on September 18, 2006, 12:32:27 AM When I was young ( about 5 ) we used to call Neds,Chavs,etc 'Casuals'. Back then they were probably viewed by adults as those mentioned in this thread are now. The difference was back then they generally didn't rob you and steal your MP3 player :D
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Gryff on September 18, 2006, 12:33:29 AM Some of the words used to describe the group of people we are discussing were originally used to describe Gypsies, its a misapropriation of the word ).
Its just a group of words used to describe the social subcultre these people belong to, yes its a stereotype but no more than "middle class". Any word can be made derorgatory but it depends entirely on the context. And damnit, we're taking Porchmonkey back! Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 12:34:35 AM Red-dog, i don't understand your question (about the gypsies). It's a simple one. Have you ever heard Gypsies described in similar terms to the way you described Chavs in your first post? The only time i have ever heard any derogatory about Gypsies is when i lived near Milton Keynes. Everytime the gypsies stay nearby (to the gym i went to) you were to told to make sures tyres (on 4x4s etc.) were put in your boot because everytime they stayed nearby those sorts of things went missing. However, the gypsies are a group of people who reside all over the world so it is not possible to make generalisations about them. You would be surprised how often entire races of people are described in derogatory terms. All credited with the same traits. Jews, Blacks, Asians, Gypsies... Or maybe not a race, but a group. Asylum seekers, Hells Angels, football fans, the poor, the homeless... All I am saying is, judge people as individuals Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 12:35:57 AM And damnit, we're taking Porchmonkey back! 4 Life 8) Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 12:37:18 AM BTW The word Chavvy, is the Romany word for child.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Wardonkey on September 18, 2006, 12:38:00 AM Any word can be made derorgatory but it depends entirely on the context. Please use the word 'chav' in a context that is not derogatory. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 12:38:36 AM BTW The word Chavvy, is the Romany word for child. Yeah, Claw mwentioned that too. I never realised, don't think I'll be using the word again. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: mikkyT on September 18, 2006, 12:38:45 AM I'm baffled by the response to this poll. I am from Chatham where it is said the Chav culture began and it was a label that was originally given almost in a kind of jovial manner but has since become known nationwide and applied across all our counties. My poll was simply designed to create some humour and get some fun ideas, it should not be taken too seriously :)up "Chav"culture did not begin in chattam. Chavs have been around since before the word was invented. They have existed in their various forms for decades. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 12:39:37 AM Any word can be made derorgatory but it depends entirely on the context. Please use the word 'chav' in a context that is not derogatory. Technically, you just did that yourself. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 12:40:23 AM I'm baffled by the response to this poll. I am from Chatham where it is said the Chav culture began and it was a label that was originally given almost in a kind of jovial manner but has since become known nationwide and applied across all our counties. My poll was simply designed to create some humour and get some fun ideas, it should not be taken too seriously :)up "Chav"culture did not begin in chattam. Chavs have been around since before the word was invented. They have existed in their various forms for decades. Very true Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Claw75 on September 18, 2006, 12:40:38 AM I'm baffled by the response to this poll. I am from Chatham where it is said the Chav culture began and it was a label that was originally given almost in a kind of jovial manner but has since become known nationwide and applied across all our counties. My poll was simply designed to create some humour and get some fun ideas, it should not be taken too seriously :)up "Chav"culture did not begin in chattam. Chavs have been around since before the word was invented. They have existed in their various forms for decades. yep - they/we were just called 'working class' before. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Swordpoker on September 18, 2006, 12:40:52 AM OK, I normally use 'ned' instead of 'chav' too. I was just trying to be cosmopoitan :D
I'll stick with ned from now on Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 12:41:50 AM Any word can be made derorgatory but it depends entirely on the context. Please use the word 'chav' in a context that is not derogatory. "freddie star ate my chav" Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 12:42:12 AM Me and sword can now consider ourselves educated delinquents.
Beg your pardon... Sword and I can now consider ourselves educated delinquents. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Claw75 on September 18, 2006, 12:43:15 AM Me and sword can now consider ourselves educated delinquents. Beg your pardon... Sword and I can now consider ourselves educated delinquents. Ed? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Wardonkey on September 18, 2006, 12:43:50 AM Any word can be made derorgatory but it depends entirely on the context. Please use the word 'chav' in a context that is not derogatory. You just did. Bugger. You know what I mean. The word is derogatory in essence. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: SupaMonkey on September 18, 2006, 12:51:35 AM now i see where you're coming from, couldnt you have posted this at the start so the thread couldve been taken off and i couldve saved myself the time in trying to highlight your benighted prejudice. I think your tone is uncalled for. I agree that a lot of prejudice is down to ignorance however this is clearly not the case because of the examples i have used. You may call it enlighted prejudice however it is not unwarranted. It is predjudice toward a group of people, for a person to join that group of people they have to fulfil certain prerequisites (i.e. nicking your car stereo). A lot of my better arguments are still unanswered. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 12:52:25 AM Just to say thanks to (almost) everyone for a good, level headed, fair debate.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Claw75 on September 18, 2006, 12:55:56 AM now i see where you're coming from, couldnt you have posted this at the start so the thread couldve been taken off and i couldve saved myself the time in trying to highlight your benighted prejudice. I think your tone is uncalled for. I agree that a lot of prejudice is down to ignorance however this is clearly not the case because of the examples i have used. You may call it enlighted prejudice however it is not unwarranted. It is predjudice toward a group of people, for a person to join that group of people they have to fulfil certain prerequisites (i.e. nicking your car stereo). A lot of my better arguments are still answered. it seems to me your problem is with criminals rather than chavs. some chavs are criminals and some criminals are chavs, but the two are not interchangable. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Wardonkey on September 18, 2006, 12:58:32 AM A lot of my better arguments are still answered. A lot of your better sentances can be understood... Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 01:02:20 AM Just to say thanks to (almost) everyone for a good, level headed, fair debate. IMO i dont think that the almost part is very fair or, with no elaboration on who is excluded, appropriate. Just my opinion though Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: SupaMonkey on September 18, 2006, 01:04:46 AM Oops, thanks Wardonkey.
Yes Claire you're right. Especially small crimes (even non-crimes like trashing the old ladies flowerbeds and playing football in your garden when you're not there). You know who did it but you can never prove it and they'll only be let off with a caution if you do (then they'll brick your house). They make a difference between a nice neighbourhood and an uncomfortable one. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 01:07:36 AM Just to say thanks to (almost) everyone for a good, level headed, fair debate. IMO i dont think that the almost part is very fair or, with no elaboration on who is excluded, appropriate. Just my opinion though Your right. To be honest I didn't think Linx5.0 was very receptive, but I didn't want to make a big thing about it. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Royal Flush on September 18, 2006, 01:45:40 AM Is this a Joke?
Red i really can't see why you are worked up about this. Chav's are not a race, they are not a social-economic grouping, they are the people who like hanging around McDonalds being anti-social, they like terrorising people. They happen to nearly always dress a like. The thread is not saying everyone dressed like them is a chav. Next you will say calling a prisoner a criminal is not allowed! Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 01:49:25 AM Next you will say calling a prisoner a criminal is not allowed! Not all prisoners are criminals If he was on remand and hadnt been convicted of anything yet then it would be slanderous to call him a criminal Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Swordpoker on September 18, 2006, 01:51:14 AM Next you will say calling a prisoner a criminal is not allowed! Not all prisoners are criminals If he was on remand and hadnt been convicted of anything yet then it would be slanderous to call him a criminal Or what about half the folk in Guantanamo Bay? ;goodvevil; Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Royal Flush on September 18, 2006, 01:52:06 AM Next you will say calling a prisoner a criminal is not allowed! Not all prisoners are criminals If he was on remand and hadnt been convicted of anything yet then it would be slanderous to call him a criminal The point though is clear. A chav is not a chav untill they do something 'chavy' Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Swordpoker on September 18, 2006, 01:52:53 AM Oh, and I don't mean the prison guards.....the other half :D
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 01:54:39 AM Is this a Joke? Red i really can't see why you are worked up about this. Chav's are not a race, they are not a social-economic grouping, they are the people who like hanging around McDonalds being anti-social, they like terrorising people. They happen to nearly always dress a like. The thread is not saying everyone dressed like them is a chav. Next you will say calling a prisoner a criminal is not allowed! It's the "Nearly always" bit that worries me. Look back over the thread, see how different people define 'Chav' and then tell me there is no room for the innocent to be tarred with the same brush. There are, and always will be, a lot of prisoners who are not criminals. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 01:56:05 AM Just because my opinion happens to differ from yours, doesn't make it a joke.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Royal Flush on September 18, 2006, 02:00:41 AM Just because my opinion happens to differ from yours, doesn't make it a joke. It's not the opion its the way evreyone jumped on this thread! Is yob a term that falls in the same situatuion then? Drunks? Druggie's? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 02:03:32 AM Is this a Joke? Red i really can't see why you are worked up about this. Chav's are not a race, they are not a social-economic grouping, they are the people who like hanging around McDonalds being anti-social, they like terrorising people. They happen to nearly always dress a like. The thread is not saying everyone dressed like them is a chav. Next you will say calling a prisoner a criminal is not allowed! It's the "Nearly always" bit that worries me. There are, and always will be, a lot of prisoners who are not criminals. Two very well made points with which i unequivically agree. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 02:09:14 AM Just because my opinion happens to differ from yours, doesn't make it a joke. It's not the opion its the way evreyone jumped on this thread! Is yob a term that falls in the same situatuion then? Drunks? Druggie's? I personally didn't like the idea of a thread solely designed to persecute a group. ANY group. What you are saying is if there are four brothers, all dressed the same, all talk the same, society will only label the one who steals something a Chav? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 02:09:47 AM Next you will say calling a prisoner a criminal is not allowed! Not all prisoners are criminals If he was on remand and hadnt been convicted of anything yet then it would be slanderous to call him a criminal The point though is clear. A chav is not a chav untill they do something 'chavy' Is it fair of my mate who got beat up in a private card game to say that all professional card players are nefarious, untrustworthy characters? This was a prevalent perception of card players at one time and he can back this assertion up with a corroborative experience of his own. Firstly is he right? i would say no Irrespective of whether or not he's right is it correct and fair of him to portray all professional card players like this? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: mikkyT on September 18, 2006, 02:10:35 AM Not all prisoners are criminals!
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Royal Flush on September 18, 2006, 02:19:43 AM I personally didn't like the idea of a thread solely designed to persecute a group. ANY group. Fair enough. I guess we cant mock losing poker players anymore! ;tk; Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 02:22:50 AM I personally didn't like the idea of a thread solely designed to persecute a group. ANY group. Fair enough. I guess we cant mock losing poker players anymore! ;tk; he said GROUP flushy, not individual, YOU FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISH :D Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Swordpoker on September 18, 2006, 02:25:41 AM Just because my opinion happens to differ from yours, doesn't make it a joke. It's not the opion its the way evreyone jumped on this thread! Is yob a term that falls in the same situatuion then? Drunks? Druggie's? I personally didn't like the idea of a thread solely designed to persecute a group. ANY group. What you are saying is if there are four brothers, all dressed the same, all talk the same, society will only label the one who steals something a Chav? Red, are you insinuating that I am part of society? That's a huge generalisation. You should treat me as an individual and not tar me with the same brush as all these other reprebates ;goodvevil; Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Royal Flush on September 18, 2006, 02:27:06 AM I personally didn't like the idea of a thread solely designed to persecute a group. ANY group. Fair enough. I guess we cant mock losing poker players anymore! ;tk; he said GROUP flushy, not individual, YOU FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISH :D lol ok. So as long as i don't say "oh yeah in the gutshot they are all fish" i am not persecuting anyone? I am off for a break, a few bad beats and this thread are close to pushing me over the edge! Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 02:33:10 AM I personally didn't like the idea of a thread solely designed to persecute a group. ANY group. Fair enough. I guess we cant mock losing poker players anymore! ;tk; he said GROUP flushy, not individual, YOU FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISH :D lol ok. So as long as i don't say "oh yeah in the gutshot they are all fish" i am not persecuting anyone? I am off for a break, a few bad beats and this thread are close to pushing me over the edge! You know the difference Flushy. Anyone can ridicule a good argument by suggesting that it encompasses nonsensical extremes. I had a valid point and you conceded it. Have the good grace to leave it at that instead of adding nit-picking proviso's Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Swordpoker on September 18, 2006, 02:38:40 AM But that's kinda my point, Red. I think you've gone to a non-sensical extreme. Just because we've slagged a 'group' of people off, doesn't mean that everyone who was ever called a chav should take offence.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 02:40:51 AM Not really for us to decide who should and who shouldn't take offence.
It's all in the eye of the beholder. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 02:42:29 AM But that's kinda my point, Red. I think you've gone to a non-sensical extreme. Just because we've slagged a 'group' of people off, doesn't mean that everyone who was ever called a chav should take offence. ive never been called a chav, though i took a natural offence to the thread upon reading the first page. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Swordpoker on September 18, 2006, 02:43:35 AM I disagree. If I want to offend someone, they usually know about it. But if I say something in innocence and someone takes offence then I don't think I have done anything wrong.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 02:43:52 AM But that's kinda my point, Red. I think you've gone to a non-sensical extreme. Just because we've slagged a 'group' of people off, doesn't mean that everyone who was ever called a chav should take offence. People loath and fear the people they perceve as Chavs, sometimes to the extent that they would do them physical harm if they got the chance. Not so losing poker players. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 02:46:38 AM I disagree. If I want to offend someone, they usually know about it. But if I say something in innocence and someone takes offence then I don't think I have done anything wrong. Yes, but there's maybe still a need to apologise I think. Like if you accidentally knock some young lady over on a train. She drops all her eggs. It may have been no fault of yours, but you should probably give her a handy up, an apologetic word, and maybe some advice on scrambling. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Swordpoker on September 18, 2006, 02:51:53 AM I disagree. If I want to offend someone, they usually know about it. But if I say something in innocence and someone takes offence then I don't think I have done anything wrong. Yes, but there's maybe still a need to apologise I think. Like if you accidentally knock some young lady over on a train. She drops all her eggs. It may have been no fault of yours, but you should probably give her a handy up, an apologetic word, and maybe some advice on scrambling. lol I would apologise out of politeness. Though, technically, I would be apologising for the miscommunication and not for what I said. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 02:57:12 AM I wiil say though, It's great to see such emotive subjects debated in such a civilised manner.
Only on blonde. Thank you. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: SupaMonkey on September 18, 2006, 02:57:44 AM Actually tank, i agree with Swordpoker.
If someone called you a thief and then i started a thread titled 'all thieves are scum', would you be angry with me for starting a thread titled like that or at the person who called you a thief. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 03:00:07 AM Actually tank, i agree with Swordpoker. If someone called you a thief and then i started a thread titled 'all thieves are scum', would you be angry with me for starting a thread titled like that or at the person who called you a thief. Only if you suggested what a typical thief would wear, and how he would talk. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Swordpoker on September 18, 2006, 03:06:28 AM Actually tank, i agree with Swordpoker. If someone called you a thief and then i started a thread titled 'all thieves are scum', would you be angry with me for starting a thread titled like that or at the person who called you a thief. Only if you suggested what a typical thief would wear, and how he would talk. Then you would have to consider yourself to be a 'typical' thief AND have made the judgement that the remark was directed at you personally Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Royal Flush on September 18, 2006, 03:08:04 AM I had a valid point and you conceded it. I didn't know i had! Anyway no more from me! I have to stop posting in these types of threads, lol. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: The Dundonian on September 18, 2006, 03:13:14 AM Surely a chav/ned/scally defines himself by his actions, not by his race, creed , colour or financial background. The word we used growing up was a yob, people who made other peoples lives a misery by there actions, petty crime, theft, breaking into cars and houses, noisey rowdy behavior in residential areas, basically people who don't give a monkeys f#ck about anyone else but themselves and there habits.
I strongly agree with the majorities view about persecuting individual groups who are defined by ethniticity or class. This is so wrong as to be repugnant, however when your bad behaviour towards others categorises you into a group outwith the norm of society, then that is no ones fault but your own. I also grew up in a rough working class housing estate in Dundee and I'm very proud of the fact. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 03:19:43 AM If you put a man in a suit, and a man in tracky bottoms and trainers side by side and asked the general public to say which one was a chav, what do you think the majority would say?
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Swordpoker on September 18, 2006, 03:23:15 AM If you put a man in a suit, and a man in tracky bottoms and trainers side by side and asked the general public to say which one was a chav, what do you think the majority would say? Chav, because you have led the answer. Ask the same person simply to describe them and you'll get a variety of answers Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Wardonkey on September 18, 2006, 03:24:58 AM The problem is that people define chavs not just by their behavior. They also class people as chavs by the way they dress and talk, as well as where they live, socialise and the jobs they do.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 03:26:32 AM If you put a man in a suit, and a man in tracky bottoms and trainers side by side and asked the general public to say which one was a chav, what do you think the majority would say? Chav, because you have led the answer. Ask the same person simply to describe them and you'll get a variety of answers Which is exactly my problem with this thread, it leads people to make the same assumption Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 03:27:00 AM The problem is that people define chavs not just by their behavior. They also class people as chavs by the way they dress and talk, as well as where they live, socialise and the jobs they do. Thank you! Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 03:27:53 AM Actually tank, i agree with Swordpoker. If someone called you a thief and then i started a thread titled 'all thieves are scum', would you be angry with me for starting a thread titled like that or at the person who called you a thief. Analogies can oftentimes be a useful tool for making a point. The danger though, with drawing anaolgies while debating an issue is that no anaolgy is perfect.Every situation is specific and unique. Here for instance, a thief describes someones behaviour, and a chav can be (not always) used to describe someones background, and as has been pointed out, draws its entymological roots from the Romany race. Oh, and if you started that thread, I'd bring up Jean Valjean. He wisnae scum. :D Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 03:28:54 AM I had a valid point and you conceded it. I didn't know i had! I personally didn't like the idea of a thread solely designed to persecute a group. ANY group. Fair enough. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: The Dundonian on September 18, 2006, 03:33:14 AM In the 80's yobs were dressed in the best of gear, as someone else on the thread said they were called "casuals" up here. It's irellevent what you wear, it's your actions that define you into that group and not your dress sense.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 03:37:48 AM In the 80's yobs were dressed in the best of gear, as someone else on the thread said they were called "casuals" up here. It's irellevent what you wear, it's your actions that define you into that group and not your dress sense. Your actions define you, but the other factors define how people perceive you. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 03:42:30 AM Actually tank, i agree with Swordpoker. If someone called you a thief and then i started a thread titled 'all thieves are scum', would you be angry with me for starting a thread titled like that or at the person who called you a thief. Was it this guy? (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/8/85/180px-Burglar_with_swag.jpg) Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: totalise on September 18, 2006, 03:44:19 AM he is someone who is carrying a sack on his back. I dont like to prejudice and call him a thief just because of what he is wearing and carrying. That would be atrocious and an insult to political correctness
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 03:45:34 AM If only your actions define you, why did almost everyone in my village complain to the council, outlining their fears of what I might do, the moment I arrived.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 03:45:47 AM Also being angry and taking offence, while related, are not necessary always the same thing either.
Robin Hood man...he gave to the poor ffs. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 03:48:07 AM If only your actions define you, why did almost everyone in my village complain to the council, outlining their fears of what I might do, the moment I arrived. Were they afraid you would dance barefoot in the grass at 3am? :D Seriously though, out of curiosity, did the villagers prejudice dissipate over time? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 03:51:58 AM If only your actions define you, why did almost everyone in my village complain to the council, outlining their fears of what I might do, the moment I arrived. Were they afraid you would dance barefoot in the grass at 3am? :D Seriously though, out of curiosity, did the villagers prejudice dissipate over time? Yes, after a few weeks we were all friends, but some of them still nudge me with their elbow and say, "But your not really a real Gypsy are you?" Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 03:54:51 AM :D
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 04:04:24 AM Were they afraid you would dance barefoot in the grass at 3am? :D Actually, I do that when I win a tourney. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: happybhoy on September 18, 2006, 07:54:15 AM I've managed 2 pages on this thread before I had to give up before I lost the will to live.
PS thanks to who ever provided this wee dude ;frustrated; Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 18, 2006, 09:33:38 AM Well I had to give up and go to bed just before 1 but it appears the debate ran well into the night. ;sleep;
I was expecting the thread to initiate laughter and good spirit and not the war of words it appears to of done. As RED pointed out though... it's good to see it has all been kept amicable. Only 19 voters though!! rotflmfao I jest i jest Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: brad.strider on September 18, 2006, 09:35:33 AM They should be dealt with the same as anyone else, and not pre judged because of their background or their appearance. Pre Judge Prejudice 'sorry this is mads post below strider did not sign out' i completely agree. ive not read the 10 pages of replies yet but couldnt stop myself replying. this is a subject close to my heart as i really hate bias and stigma. these young people you are talking about dressed in burberry which is not always fake, have hearts too. there is a big danger of tarring a group with the same brush although they WILL have different values and behaviours. why dont you do as Tank suggests and go the whole hog and cut off their genitals so they cant breed. point well made tank! its very interesting that punishments are being put forward without any crimes being committed. the real crime is the stereotyping thats gone on in the first post here. i dont know what its meant to achieve except to put down groups of OUR young folk. there could be folk on here who dress in burberry and feel pretty bad or angry because you are slagging them off without knowing who they are or what they think. and to say that all of these young folk are uneducated boggles the mind. utter crass in my opinion. open your mind and your heart will follow. having these views of folk serve to narrow the mind and stunt intellectual development. after all how can you be open minded and learn about life if you are unwilling to get past 'SUN' mentality rant over. im off to get ready for my week in the country in a log cabin no less. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 09:38:31 AM They should be dealt with the same as anyone else, and not pre judged because of their background or their appearance. Pre Judge Prejudice 'sorry this is mads post below strider did not sign out' i completely agree. ive not read the 10 pages of replies yet but couldnt stop myself replying. this is a subject close to my heart as i really hate bias and stigma. these young people you are talking about dressed in burberry which is not always fake, have hearts too. there is a big danger of tarring a group with the same brush although they WILL have different values and behaviours. why dont you do as Tank suggests and go the whole hog and cut off their genitals so they cant breed. point well made tank! its very interesting that punishments are being put forward without any crimes being committed. the real crime is the stereotyping thats gone on in the first post here. i dont know what its meant to achieve except to put down groups of OUR young folk. there could be folk on here who dress in burberry and feel pretty bad or angry because you are slagging them off without knowing who they are or what they think. and to say that all of these young folk are uneducated boggles the mind. utter crass in my opinion. open your mind and your heart will follow. having these views of folk serve to narrow the mind and stunt intellectual development. after all how can you be open minded and learn about life if you are unwilling to get past 'SUN' mentality rant over. im off to get ready for my week in the country in a log cabin no less. Very well said Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 09:46:55 AM Enjoy yourself mad
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Sark79 on September 18, 2006, 10:15:07 AM Right, who is having a laugh and how did you get my email address? :D
Dear Sir/Madam, One of the biggest dangers facing the future of gardening and botany in the United Kingdom is the growing chav culture of which I'm sure you are aware. During the 1980s disadvantaged females gave birth at alarmingly young ages as they were too poor to indulge in activities beyond the obscene. They were ill equipped to rear their young in a civilized manner, as such our streets today are filled with people who love nothing more than to uproot plants in nice people's gardens whilst they are whooped up on alcoholic apple beverages. This problem, as it relates to gardeners, is twofold..... - Existing botany enthusiasts are losing valuable plantage. - Potential future botanists are put off from taking up the hobby. What's the point in nursing marigolds and chrysanthemums to their beautiful maturity when some yelpie will just decide to intrude upon your property and wear it as a hat on Friday night? In our society, the usual solution to a problem regarding unlawful acts is to contact the local constabulary. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to do any good. - It is hard to catch the perpetrators in the act. - When you do, the punishments they receive for murdering herbs are hardly my idea of justice. Still, it serves to further enrage the chavs into more serious criminal damage upon your garden. In some extreme circumstances, they have even been known to uproot bush. Our organisation proposes a different solution to the problem. Instil a sense of plant love into today’s working class youth. For just £150, we can send a chav to a botanical museum in the South of France for 4 days. During this time, our sincere hope is that they will subconsciously become more inclined into loving and respecting all livings things. They may still piss in the street (as poor people are prone to do) but we can be free to plant symmetrical patterns of posies, free of the fear that they will be tampered with. It is expected that these folk will jump at the chance of a free holiday, so that should not be a problem. My name is John Partridge, and I am based in Oxenholme. Please contact me if you are interested in setting up a fundraising group in your own area. My e-mail address can be found below. We are also looking for volunteers to marschall the bus trips to the South of France. Your duties include leading the chavs in song, and keeping the driver alive. This position is not recommended for the over 70s. Naturally, if you have any ideas about this problem, or questions about our proposed scheme, we are always happy to receive feedback. We are called the BRP (Botanists Reforming the Poor) and we have lofty ambitions. We need your help. Thank you for taking the time to read this e-mail Regards John Partridge (BRP founder) johnpartridge@dcemail.com Please feel free to forward this e-mail to your friends, or post it on any public forums that you frequent. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: madasahatstand on September 18, 2006, 10:22:21 AM sark
i think your stalker is back again. how did you get on at uni by the way? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Sark79 on September 18, 2006, 10:31:12 AM sark i think your stalker is back again. how did you get on at uni by the way? lol, I think they must be. I did ok and I am fairly sure I passed. To be honest over the next few days I am going to decide whether or not to return for 3rd year. I can't stand the course I am doing ( Geography ) and it is too late to change now. The thought of two more years and approx another £8,000 - 9,000 debts for doing something I dislike is not very tempting. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: charmaine on September 18, 2006, 10:39:05 AM I have the same email Sark , never even posted in the chav thread :blonde:
But as I'm here ........... lol I have one son that is a cross between a Greb and a Punk , and two that if you wanna class them i guess they would be chavs. They can be a pain in the arse granted , but have no trouble police wise , they don't mug old ladies , abuse people for there race/colour of there skin . I hope I've taught them that we're all equal . We come from a Gypsy background and my kids are very proud of this and are for ever telling people about there family's life in a caravan . I think people need to see behind the bling and clothes , punk gear and Mohican's , theres good and bad all around , just sometimes we're not seeing which is which . My Penny's worth :) Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: yt on September 18, 2006, 10:45:38 AM I work in an office, wear a suit etc etc. However, the people I work with are generally middle class uni grads. I am born and breed in Harlow and therefore talk a bit rough innit. ;) The people in my office have often made jokes towards me about being a chav because of where i live and how i talk. I just laugh it off.
To me a Chav is young, wears dodgy sportswear and plenty of bling. They generally hang around shopping centres in groups and intimidate people. They don't actually have to be commiting crimes to be a Chav. It's more of a LOOK they go for more than their actions. That just how I see it. So I have one opinion of what makes a Chav and my work collegues think I qualify as a Chav. This doen't help this discussion at all! It's just my observations Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Colchester Kev on September 18, 2006, 10:47:48 AM I think people need to see behind the bling and clothes , punk gear and Mohican's , theres good and bad all around , just sometimes we're not seeing which is which . AMEN Best post in the whole 10 pages. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: North Angel on September 18, 2006, 10:54:33 AM Yep I also received the same email.........didn't have a clue about this thread.
Ang x x Not happy about people spamming my email addy. ;tk; Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: AndrewT on September 18, 2006, 11:07:43 AM A nice big long thread for me to read on a Monday morning.
I think Dundonian summed things up the best. There have always been people who are anti-social, who have had different names depending on the times (like 'yob'). Personally I hate the word 'chav' as the word entered common parlance through the middle classes, not through the people the term would actually apply to. History tells us that collective terms for groups of people that are not coined by the group themselves are usually derogotary. For many middle class snobs, chav = working class. The term gives them an easy way to turn their noses up at another sector of society. The problem comes from the fact that a chav has come to be defined by their clothes and their jewellery and suchlike, and problems always arise when you categorise people by what they look like. When I was at university, the enemy of us students was the 'townie'. A Townie is, to all intents and purposes, what a chav is now. It was someone who probably lived and worked in the same small place they grew up, left school as soon as they could and got some sort of manual job. Many of them may have worn the same sort of clothes (Ben Sherman shirts) but it wasn't the way they looked, or what job they did, or their background which led us to hate them. It was their ignorance and, more specifically, the fact they revelled in their ignorance - it was a badge of honour to them. We'd gone off to university to learn more about the world, about ourselves, about other people - to broaden our minds. Their minds were closed. We were capable of having discussions with each other in a mature way, with reason and logic. Townies would seek to resolve arguments in their favour using intimidation and violence. It is this aspect of their personalities which should define a chav, but unfortunately the focus has become Burberry caps, gold chains and tracksuit bottoms. The danger is that many good kids, who just happen to come from a working-class background, will find themselves sucked into playing up to the 'chav' stereotype. Going off on a tangent a bit now, I'm from a resolutely working-class background. My parents were Irish immigrants and my father still has a manual job. To a casual observer, I would appear to be middle-class (desk job, degree, bottle of Chenin Blanc chilling in the fridge). However, I would never classify myself as middle-class, because of my background, but I'm not really working-class either, because of my lifestyle (virtually all my friends are from university and are from middle-class backgrounds). The traditional 'working-class' label doesn't really apply to a whole group of people (like me) who have (thanks to the expansion of the universities in the 1960s) been 'educated out of their class'. It seems that those who have been left behind have got the chav label pinned on them. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 11:10:19 AM Very interesting points Andrew. :goodpost:
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: yt on September 18, 2006, 11:16:02 AM When I was at university, the enemy of us students was the 'townie'. A Townie is, to all intents and purposes, what a chav is now. It was someone who probably lived and worked in the same small place they grew up, left school as soon as they could and got some sort of manual job. Many of them may have worn the same sort of clothes (Ben Sherman shirts) but it wasn't the way they looked, or what job they did, or their background which led us to hate them. It was their ignorance and, more specifically, the fact they revelled in their ignorance - it was a badge of honour to them. We'd gone off to university to learn more about the world, about ourselves, about other people - to broaden our minds. Their minds were closed. We were capable of having discussions with each other in a mature way, with reason and logic. Townies would seek to resolve arguments in their favour using intimidation and violence. So you think of yourself as better than them? This attitude can't have helped the students ingratiate themselves with the local population....! Someone has to do those manual jobs mate and if they are proud of it good luck to them. Why shouldn't they be happy and proud to live the rest of their life where they were born? Did you really HATE them? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 11:17:18 AM Andrew wrote that in the past tense yt. I think it is worth bearing in mind.
I thought that part was describing how he felt then, rather than how he feels now. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: yt on September 18, 2006, 11:19:25 AM I'm sure he feels differently now.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: AndrewT on September 18, 2006, 11:30:18 AM When I was at university, the enemy of us students was the 'townie'. A Townie is, to all intents and purposes, what a chav is now. It was someone who probably lived and worked in the same small place they grew up, left school as soon as they could and got some sort of manual job. Many of them may have worn the same sort of clothes (Ben Sherman shirts) but it wasn't the way they looked, or what job they did, or their background which led us to hate them. It was their ignorance and, more specifically, the fact they revelled in their ignorance - it was a badge of honour to them. We'd gone off to university to learn more about the world, about ourselves, about other people - to broaden our minds. Their minds were closed. We were capable of having discussions with each other in a mature way, with reason and logic. Townies would seek to resolve arguments in their favour using intimidation and violence. So you think of yourself as better than them? This attitude can't have helped the students ingratiate themselves with the local population....! Someone has to do those manual jobs mate and if they are proud of it good luck to them. Why shouldn't they be happy and proud to live the rest of their life where they were born? Did you really HATE them? Read it again. I specifically said that, whilst there were commonalities between their backgrounds, clothes etc, the reason we hated them (yes, hated) was their attitude. The aura of violence. The risk of attack on a Saturday night. The 'fucking bookworm' comments. The broken cheekbone from a punch when I told a group of teenagers to stop throwing stones at passersby. The four stitches in my chin when I was attacked outside a nightclub because I had the temerity to deride someone for thinking it was funny to deliberately knock people's drinks out of their hands. You suggest I think I'm better than people who behave in such a way? You're damn right I do. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: AndrewT on September 18, 2006, 11:34:46 AM That last post shows just how easy it is to fall into the trap of labels - I used the pronoun 'them' without explicity defining who I was referring to.
It's the people whose personalities lead them to exhibit anti-social behaviour that I hate, not simply people who happen to wear a certain type of clothing, or come from a certain background. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: yt on September 18, 2006, 11:42:17 AM That last post shows just how easy it is to fall into the trap of labels - I used the pronoun 'them' without explicity defining who I was referring to. So it's not the group of "townies" you hated just the individuals who caused you and others harm. That's good.It's the people whose personalities lead them to exhibit anti-social behaviour that I hate, not simply people who happen to wear a certain type of clothing, or come from a certain background. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 11:46:21 AM Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy?
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: AndrewT on September 18, 2006, 11:46:40 AM That last post shows just how easy it is to fall into the trap of labels - I used the pronoun 'them' without explicity defining who I was referring to. So it's not the group of "townies" you hated just the individuals who caused you and others harm. That's good.It's the people whose personalities lead them to exhibit anti-social behaviour that I hate, not simply people who happen to wear a certain type of clothing, or come from a certain background. Yes, I hate anti-social people who revel in their own ignorance. It seems some people hate those who wear tracksuits and sit outside McDonalds. The second group may not necessarily fall into the first group. Though, of course, the two groups are not mutually exclusive. Therein lies all the problems. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 11:47:46 AM Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy? without belittling your ordeal andrew i was thinking exactly the same thing Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: AndrewT on September 18, 2006, 11:49:35 AM Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy? At the risk of sounding incredibly sanctimonious, may I direct you towards Edmund Burke? All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. If the risk of a smack in the mouth leads us to hold our tongues, they win. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: yt on September 18, 2006, 11:50:25 AM Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy? and the same to the stone throwing. leave them to it unless you're wearing body armour and carring a rather large gun cos they ain't gonna listen - or care and they will react. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: AndrewT on September 18, 2006, 11:52:57 AM Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy? and the same to the stone throwing. leave them to it unless you're wearing body armour and carring a rather large gun cos they ain't gonna listen - or care and they will react. I know you're right, and I know that many decent people have been seriously injured or killed simply for standing up to yobs, but I can be a real pain in the arse when it comes to a point of principle. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: yt on September 18, 2006, 11:53:48 AM Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy? At the risk of sounding incredibly sanctimonious, may I direct you towards Edmund Burke? All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. If the risk of a smack in the mouth leads us to hold our tongues, they win. If they are prepard to do what the other guy wont, they will win. They may go to jail afterwards but that wont be much comfort from your hospital bed. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RobS on September 18, 2006, 11:54:27 AM Read it again. I specifically said that, whilst there were commonalities between their backgrounds, clothes etc, the reason we hated them (yes, hated) was their attitude. The aura of violence. The risk of attack on a Saturday night. The 'fucking bookworm' comments. The broken cheekbone from a punch when I told a group of teenagers to stop throwing stones at passersby. The four stitches in my chin when I was attacked outside a nightclub because I had the temerity to deride someone for thinking it was funny to deliberately knock people's drinks out of their hands. You suggest I think I'm better than people who behave in such a way? You're damn right I do. [/quote] Did you go to University in Manchester by any chance Andrew? ;goodvevil; Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: bolt pp on September 18, 2006, 11:56:51 AM Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy? At the risk of sounding incredibly sanctimonious, may I direct you towards Edmund Burke? All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. If the risk of a smack in the mouth leads us to hold our tongues, they win. Are you fighting a war or is your continual use of the word "they" referring to an unknown quantity in this debate? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 11:57:50 AM A Burke fan you are Andrew?
Manners are of more importance than laws..... One can assume that you minded these manners when your derided that man. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: AndrewT on September 18, 2006, 12:01:54 PM Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy? At the risk of sounding incredibly sanctimonious, may I direct you towards Edmund Burke? All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. If the risk of a smack in the mouth leads us to hold our tongues, they win. Are you fighting a war or is your continual use of the word "they" referring to an unknown quantity in this debate? 'They' = the troublemakers, the people who make the world a less nice place to live in. As for fighting a war, maybe I just want to be Batman. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: thetank on September 18, 2006, 12:05:33 PM We're trashing you a bit, your valour was probably commendable that night.
I think the general feeling at the moment though, is that if you're going to be Batman, you better bring yer belt. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: AndrewT on September 18, 2006, 12:14:13 PM We're trashing you a bit, your valour was probably commendable that night. I think the general feeling at the moment though, is that if you're going to be Batman, you better bring yer belt. Exactly. The problem is, that if I use my belt, I'm the one who ends up at Her Majesty's Pleasure. The reason we're not supposed to need belts (and aren't allowed to have them) is because the police use theirs. But those speeding tickets won't issue themselves... Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 18, 2006, 12:18:02 PM But those speeding tickets won't issue themselves... Oh yes they do! Don't get me started..... :D Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: MrMoves on September 18, 2006, 02:09:29 PM I think this is a fascinating thread, plenty of hypocrisy, but fascinating all the same.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: charmaine on September 18, 2006, 03:51:07 PM I think people need to see behind the bling and clothes , punk gear and Mohican's , theres good and bad all around , just sometimes we're not seeing which is which . AMEN Best post in the whole 10 pages. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: ifm on September 18, 2006, 05:04:57 PM You must all live in dodgy neighbourhoods............
Daft thread BTW Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Nem on September 18, 2006, 05:31:05 PM The first option of the poll is disgusting
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Ginger on September 18, 2006, 08:10:07 PM The first option of the poll is disgusting I know, a 1990 Vauxhall Nova is never going to make it round the M25.... Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Royal Flush on September 18, 2006, 08:42:36 PM The first option of the poll is disgusting I know, a 1990 Vauxhall Nova is never going to make it round the M25.... PMSL Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Sark79 on September 18, 2006, 08:57:26 PM The first option of the poll is disgusting I know, a 1990 Vauxhall Nova is never going to make it round the M25.... lol Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 19, 2006, 09:16:50 AM The first option of the poll is disgusting I know, a 1990 Vauxhall Nova is never going to make it round the M25.... rotflmfao Very true You must all live in dodgy neighbourhoods............ Daft thread BTW Thread was always intended to be tongue in cheek and just a bit of fun... far too many people got their knickers in a twist IMO Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TightEnd on September 19, 2006, 11:20:52 AM though to be be fair, not many people are going to know you on here to provide some context, your first few posts on the thread display no evidence of irony or tongue in cheek-ness, and it is only about a third of the way through the thread that you claim to be joking.
By then the horse, riding an emotive subject, has bolted. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 19, 2006, 11:30:40 AM I take your point that obviously people aren't familiar with me on here yet but i'd say that the quite blatantly ludicrous options that I have put in my poll can not be seen as anything other than a joke???
I'm talking about building a raft out of Argos catalogues!!! C'mon pleeease, how can that be taken seriously? Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Colchester Kev on September 19, 2006, 11:38:26 AM I'm talking about building a raft out of Argos catalogues!!! C'mon pleeease, how can that be taken seriously? Now he tells me !!! I was just on the final binding, and preparing a launch date... My back is killing me from carrying all those catalogues home and now you say you were joking ..... Sheeesh ! ;) Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TightEnd on September 19, 2006, 11:39:42 AM only because your first couple of options sound quite nasty and believable.
I doubt whether many people got as far as the 4th before posting! Anyway, it turned into a decent debate, so no worries Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: mex on September 19, 2006, 01:46:58 PM I think this thread got taken so seriously because as i read it Reddog actually reresents the group Chavvy originally came from.
Now i know the definition has changed, but for Red (red i am making a huge assumption here you are of true Romany decent.) this is close to home. Red would have in fact been a Chavvy ( Romany child? ), I believe in Chatham, shop keepers use to throw Chavvy out of the shop for fear they had been sent to steal whilst under convictable age. That said i don't think the original post was intented to pick on individual or groups per say but as a piece of comedy, good comedy often comes at the expense of others, How many black comedians have based a career on taking the mickey out of racial differences? As a side point I was a skater (skate board) in my teen years, and it was amazing the prejudice you'd get, we were blamed for graffitti, people always thought we had a ready supply of drugs,and we shop lifted, the fact we were the most creative and artistic bunch,(ever read a skaters grip tape?). We were the chav's of our generation. Now every one assumes im a made casino hungry gambler because I've spent more than a month playing poker. As i see it we are all growing older on here and seem to be getting further from youth culture, (or Yoot as its now spelt) so its easy to group the young and write em off. BTW what do you call a CHav in a Box Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 19, 2006, 02:08:35 PM :dontask: what do you call a chav in a box?
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Royal Flush on September 19, 2006, 02:20:01 PM Innit?
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Sark79 on September 19, 2006, 02:21:13 PM I thought it was a joke post and it had no real nastiness about it. I am sure no real harm has been done :)
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: TheGreenOne on September 19, 2006, 02:26:31 PM ;sleep; We're all waiting eagerly for the punchline mex... although i suspect Flushy has got it right
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: Claw75 on September 19, 2006, 04:14:49 PM I guess, as with any type of humour, there is a fine line to tread. Personally, leaving the 'chav' stuff behind for a minute, I can't find humour in suggestions of violent actions to be taken against others. Whilst some say it should have been obvious that the original post was intended as a joke, there are plenty of people around in this country who not only condone vigilante action against certain members of society, but who go ahead and carry it out. Tony Martin springs to mind. I don't want to start off a debate about his case, but I remember being genuinely shocked at the level of public support he apparently had.
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: SupaMonkey on September 19, 2006, 04:22:21 PM So when do you think Argos will start selling, MaccyDs, cider and 1990 Vauxhall Novas then. ;goodvevil;
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: RED-DOG on September 19, 2006, 05:10:01 PM I think this thread got taken so seriously because as i read it Reddog actually reresents the group Chavvy originally came from. Now i know the definition has changed, but for Red (red i am making a huge assumption here you are of true Romany decent.) this is close to home. Red would have in fact been a Chavvy ( Romany child? ), I believe in Chatham, shop keepers use to throw Chavvy out of the shop for fear they had been sent to steal whilst under convictable age. That said i don't think the original post was intented to pick on individual or groups per say but as a piece of comedy, good comedy often comes at the expense of others, How many black comedians have based a career on taking the mickey out of racial differences? As a side point I was a skater (skate board) in my teen years, and it was amazing the prejudice you'd get, we were blamed for graffitti, people always thought we had a ready supply of drugs,and we shop lifted, the fact we were the most creative and artistic bunch,(ever read a skaters grip tape?). We were the chav's of our generation. Now every one assumes im a made casino hungry gambler because I've spent more than a month playing poker. As i see it we are all growing older on here and seem to be getting further from youth culture, (or Yoot as its now spelt) so its easy to group the young and write em off. BTW what do you call a CHav in a Box Actually, I didn't pick up, or object to the thread because of the Chav link to the Romany. In fact it didn't even occur to me for a while, so many Romany words have been assimilated into everyday use. I objected to the idea of a thread dedicated to attacking one particular group because of how society perceives them. I know it was only posted in fun, but as with all these things, it had the potential to escalate and the capacity to brand 'some' innocent people with the traits of others, and some people would make that assumption just by looking. based on what a person wore or how he talked. I only intended to make a passing comment, but, as these things do, it escalated in to a full scale debate. I am not really a kill joy, or a drum banger. and to my shame, I love black humour and un-pc jokes, but I have spent a lifetime on the other side o the fence, as part of a persecuted ethnic minority. I suppose I can be a little over sensitive sometime. I was very pleased with the way the debate was conducted though, and I am proud that we have so many members with 'receive' as well a 'transmit' buttons. Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: ericstoner on September 19, 2006, 05:25:52 PM When I was young.......a long time ago. A Chav was a slang name for a child among the few people I knew, of Romany descent. ;tk;
Title: Re: What's justice? Post by: BrumBilly on September 19, 2006, 07:44:02 PM The Tony Martin case is to my mind an example of a bankrupt justice system which on a daily basis makes it all to easy for men to find themselves in impossible situations.
He had and still has my full support. Just sorry he ended up going to prison. |