What's justice?

[yt]

When I was at university, the enemy of us students was the 'townie'. A Townie is, to all intents and purposes, what a chav is now. It was someone who probably lived and worked in the same small place they grew up, left school as soon as they could and got some sort of manual job. Many of them may have worn the same sort of clothes (Ben Sherman shirts) but it wasn't the way they looked, or what job they did, or their background which led us to hate them. It was their ignorance and, more specifically, the fact they revelled in their ignorance - it was a badge of honour to them. We'd gone off to university to learn more about the world, about ourselves, about other people - to broaden our minds. Their minds were closed. We were capable of having discussions with each other in a mature way, with reason and logic. Townies would seek to resolve arguments in their favour using intimidation and violence.

So you think of yourself as better than them?
This attitude can't have helped the students ingratiate themselves with the local population....!

Someone has to do those manual jobs mate and if they are proud of it good luck to them.

Why shouldn't they be happy and proud to live the rest of their life where they were born?

Did you really HATE them?

[thetank]

Andrew wrote that in the past tense yt. I think it is worth bearing in mind.

I thought that part was describing how he felt then, rather than how he feels now.

[yt]

I'm sure he feels differently now.

[AndrewT]

When I was at university, the enemy of us students was the 'townie'. A Townie is, to all intents and purposes, what a chav is now. It was someone who probably lived and worked in the same small place they grew up, left school as soon as they could and got some sort of manual job. Many of them may have worn the same sort of clothes (Ben Sherman shirts) but it wasn't the way they looked, or what job they did, or their background which led us to hate them. It was their ignorance and, more specifically, the fact they revelled in their ignorance - it was a badge of honour to them. We'd gone off to university to learn more about the world, about ourselves, about other people - to broaden our minds. Their minds were closed. We were capable of having discussions with each other in a mature way, with reason and logic. Townies would seek to resolve arguments in their favour using intimidation and violence.

So you think of yourself as better than them?
This attitude can't have helped the students ingratiate themselves with the local population....!

Someone has to do those manual jobs mate and if they are proud of it good luck to them.

Why shouldn't they be happy and proud to live the rest of their life where they were born?

Did you really HATE them?

Read it again. I specifically said that, whilst there were commonalities between their backgrounds, clothes etc, the reason we hated them (yes, hated) was their attitude. The aura of violence. The risk of attack on a Saturday night. The 'fucking bookworm' comments. The broken cheekbone from a punch when I told a group of teenagers to stop throwing stones at passersby. The four stitches in my chin when I was attacked outside a nightclub because I had the temerity to deride someone for thinking it was funny to deliberately knock people's drinks out of their hands.

You suggest I think I'm better than people who behave in such a way? You're damn right I do.

[AndrewT]

That last post shows just how easy it is to fall into the trap of labels - I used the pronoun 'them' without explicity defining who I was referring to.

It's the people whose personalities lead them to exhibit anti-social behaviour that I hate, not simply people who happen to wear a certain type of clothing, or come from a certain background.

[yt]

That last post shows just how easy it is to fall into the trap of labels - I used the pronoun 'them' without explicity defining who I was referring to.

It's the people whose personalities lead them to exhibit anti-social behaviour that I hate, not simply people who happen to wear a certain type of clothing, or come from a certain background.

So it's not the group of "townies" you hated just the individuals who caused you and others harm. That's good.

[thetank]

Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy?

[AndrewT]

That last post shows just how easy it is to fall into the trap of labels - I used the pronoun 'them' without explicity defining who I was referring to.

It's the people whose personalities lead them to exhibit anti-social behaviour that I hate, not simply people who happen to wear a certain type of clothing, or come from a certain background.

So it's not the group of "townies" you hated just the individuals who caused you and others harm. That's good.

Yes, I hate anti-social people who revel in their own ignorance. It seems some people hate those who wear tracksuits and sit outside McDonalds.

The second group may not necessarily fall into the first group. Though, of course,  the two groups are not mutually exclusive. Therein lies all the problems.

[bolt pp]

Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy?

without belittling your ordeal andrew i was thinking exactly the same thing

[AndrewT]

Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy?

At the risk of sounding incredibly sanctimonious, may I direct you towards Edmund Burke?

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

If the risk of a smack in the mouth leads us to hold our tongues, they win.

[yt]

Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy?

and the same to the stone throwing.
leave them to it unless you're wearing body armour and carring a rather large gun cos they ain't gonna listen - or care and they will react.

[AndrewT]

Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy?

and the same to the stone throwing.
leave them to it unless you're wearing body armour and carring a rather large gun cos they ain't gonna listen - or care and they will react.

I know you're right, and I know that many decent people have been seriously injured or killed simply for standing up to yobs, but I can be a real pain in the arse when it comes to a point of principle.

[yt]

Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy?

At the risk of sounding incredibly sanctimonious, may I direct you towards Edmund Burke?

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

If the risk of a smack in the mouth leads us to hold our tongues, they win.

While I agree with this in princilple, if you take on the "wrong" person he might be prepared to knife you or glass you or worse. Are you prepard to back that kind of response up?
If they are prepard to do what the other guy wont, they will win. They may go to jail afterwards but that wont be much comfort from your hospital bed.

[RobS]

Read it again. I specifically said that, whilst there were commonalities between their backgrounds, clothes etc, the reason we hated them (yes, hated) was their attitude. The aura of violence. The risk of attack on a Saturday night. The 'fucking bookworm' comments. The broken cheekbone from a punch when I told a group of teenagers to stop throwing stones at passersby. The four stitches in my chin when I was attacked outside a nightclub because I had the temerity to deride someone for thinking it was funny to deliberately knock people's drinks out of their hands.

You suggest I think I'm better than people who behave in such a way? You're damn right I do.
[/quote]

Did you go to University in Manchester by any chance Andrew? 

[bolt pp]

Not trying to be funny, or excuse violent behaviour in any way, but what reaction did you expect from the drink spilling guy?

At the risk of sounding incredibly sanctimonious, may I direct you towards Edmund Burke?

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

If the risk of a smack in the mouth leads us to hold our tongues, they win.

Are you fighting a war or is your continual use of the word "they" referring to an unknown quantity in this debate?