blonde poker forum

tournament example

Blinds at 1500/3000 antes 150, 30 players left from a field of 600

You hold Ad Ks in the SB with a stack of 85,000, average about 45,000.

The cutoff + 1 raises to 12,000, he has a stack 100,000. Player is solid but not super tight, a raise would mean some sort of hand.

On the last circuit he put in a raise in the same position and you stole it from him with an all in push when you were slightly shorter stacked with around 63,000.

BB has 32,000 and has been very tight, money started at 45.

Your move? and why.......

hmm tricky. How has the BB been playing when he's on the BB? If he is prone to folding after a raise and is one of the few that does so the raiser might have his BB marked and that's why he's raising.

I might be thinking all in again. He's folded to you before because he doesn't want to risk a massive part of his stack.
The money has already started, is there a massive jump between say 30 and 20-24? If there isn't then it's all in from me as I would now be playing to win the tourney and opening up my game, start making some more agressive moves and all that.

If there is a fair jump after 20 and you would be more then happy with the cash that would mean then I would fold as you should have plenty of chips left to make it to that stage without getting yourself into real trouble.

Essentially it's a money desicion....All-in from me (especially as he's folded to that before..that's always a big help) but you would be more than justified in folding here.

edit* didn't even mention the flatcall option...which i should have. at this stage I don't like to flatcall with AK because he might not pay you off when you hit. (IOW if the Ace or King comes on the flop and he's got J's or some hand he'll fold to you unless he's hit trips) I am not against being in a race against a  lower pair (lower then your K) at this stage as this would mean you double your chips and could win the thing. If he folds to you then that's fine to your all-in that's great to as you'd be establishing dominance over him and he'll be much more reluctant to raise again knowing that you aren't scared to stick them all if he makes it worth your while.

I flat call, here.  i want to see a flop as cheap as possible. 

You have the cut off on a fairly decent hand whats the range? 99 - JJ or bigger again?   

Once  I see a flop I can re-evaluate my options.  But if your putting matey on a QQ, KK, AA, you can pass.  But  he may well have AK or AQ in this situation as well.

Peter Two Gears - All in or fold  :D 

lol...yeah that's why I editted the post...I went  to the toilet and thought (I do my best thinking there)..."hey, flatcalling might be an option" lol...then I discarded that but thought I'd post why :)

I don't usually move all in with AK/AQ when squeezed between bigger stack and short one and my stack is of decent size.  Re-raise can be effective and safer option if you want to get rid off BB, if cut off comes over the top, then you have a tough decision to make but you can let go of your AK safely.  Flat call the raise is another safe option but as you are out of position your choices of play on the flop will depend on the read of your opponent.

fair point...but how much would you re-raise? If you re-raise another 12-16k raiser is likely to call or go over the top as that shouldn't scare him off with that stack (Lord knows I would ask you to stick all your chips in the middle if I was him). If you reraise another 25-36k you have half your stack in there and (with a running ante) thing will get a bit tight if you don't find a hand fairly soon as you only have 10x the BB left.

 :goodpost:   At this stage of the tourny for me its all about chip management, you are well above average so no need to risk loosing all your chips.  If you can get to see the flop then its a bonus.

If the BB pushes and the cut-off calls.  Then I think this is when your decision is tough, I think the Cut off's position becomes stronger, I would suspect that he has a big hand at this point.  But to the same extent your really priced into a call and this is when you risk loosing a fair whack of your stack if not all of it.

actually..if the BB pushes and the raiser calls you decision is fairly simple...it's a fold every time in that situation for me. BB MUST have a hand to reraise a raise (4x BB) from a guy in that position + a caller, as he will always get called by one of them and he knows this.. and if UTg +1 calls you should be way behind.

If I RR in this position which is highly unlikely then I make it another 20k to go.   I try thinking about it from mateys perspective and I am thinking to myself I stick in a raise, I have position on this guy and I have more chips.  What has he got?  What can I beat?

Althought I really am going safety first.   Then the flop comes K K 5 ohh happy days!  :D

The BB could have any two though Balde and may feel that by pushing in an extra 20k he can get two players off.  More importantly though for me if the BB pushes original raiser calls there is 82 k in the middle and its only 20 k to call to peel off a flop I think I am priced in to  making the call, feck it at this point I may even RR and stick it all in now and put our original raiser to the test!

From the raiser's perspective what shows more strength?

1.) A Shove.
2.) A flat call.
3.) A reraise of X2 his raise.

Id say option 1 looks like AK/AQ to me in this spot and he might take a shot with a mid pair for two reasons A.) You have done this to him before. B.) his not very good.

2.) A flat call here would worry me but I either hit the flop or I don’t and can make a C bet for about 16K and still get away.

3.) This looks very strong like you want me to play. I think you put me in shove or fold mode

How much does the fact that he made the same raise from the same position with a poor result on the last circuit affect your decision?

Is it likely that he would significantly reduce his raising range when i am in the blinds considering the last circuit?

oh that definetly helps for me....however...the question you should also ask is

Is it likely he thinks YOU would significantly reduce your raising range considering last circuit. (IOW...will he be thinking you're at it because you got away with it last time).

 
If i have callers/raises and so on my AK does not look very good here, so easy fold for me.  Sometimes the concept of being prized into the pot IMO is over rated.

So i would probably flat call the raise and hope to see the flop.  At this stage of the tourney with my stack, unless I suspect that I have a better hand then my opponent, I am not inclined to commit myself to the pot.  

  :goodpost:

So if i think his raising range may or may not have shrunk and his calling range has probably grown to include lower pairs and AQ there is only really 1/2 hands that i want him to call with, so a push would be wrong.

A x3 re raise commits over a 3rd of my stack to the pot, can i fold to a re re raise?

The call and evaluate (probably having a small stab at it) on the flop looks pretty inviting

point1; Not really, if you think his calling range has grown that's not necesarilly a bad thing. i wouldn't mind him calling with lower pairs ..actually I would kindoff like to see that (and AQ especially) as that would give me a fair shot at doubling up.

Any pair lower then KK is fine with me and therefore I'd push (that really is simply because I'm going for the double up and at this stage of the tourney I don't mind risking my stack to win it...if the prize structure supports making that move (IOW top heavy prize structure)

A x3 reraise would indeed commit your stack so I wouldn't like to fold after that reraise...it's also why I wouldn't reraise him by x3. and as I pointed out, less then x3 probably won't push him off...so why not move all-in if you are considering that.

the flatcall doesn't appeal to me for the reasons I mentioned before.

I think his calling range has widened slightly here. I can't see him passing 99+ or AJ+ here. He is likely to think you're at it again. He is also likely to have raised with these sorts of hands in exactly the same manner as last round because he thinks your shove range is huge imo.

If you min reraise etc. it looks like you are saving some of your stack so you can pass to a re-shove. I would say you are inviting/inducing the reshove so you don't gain any info by the manoeuvre.

I don't like putting 1/7th of my stack in and then folding, so there is only one move for me.

 ;all-in; ;all-in; ;all-in; ;all-in; ;all-in; ;all-in;

the more i think the more i am inclined to flat call the raise and hope to see the flop.  I really think overplaying AK is the easiest way to go broke in the tourney.

lol..the more I think the more I am positive the push is the right move lol.

It is not a case of overplaying the AK to push it, I think. ANY hand below K's that the raiser has will be fine with me in this situation...unless I think he has KK or AA my chips are in as I want to win the tourney. And overplaying AK would be to call a reraise by the BB and an all in by UTG here. you are the agressor in this and therefore aren't overplaying him as you don't really mind him calling but a fold will do nicely to :)

If you have 73k and the pot is 25k, your postflop play is limited to playing when you hit and folding when you miss. You are only reraising the guy another 6x his raise if you push preflop, i would prefer to take the 25k now.

What I really mean is that, I am not a big fan of commiting my stack with AK preflop.  for me AK is just a hand like any others, and there are plenty of opportunites for me to win the tourney. I understand that you are becoming an aggressor, but If i don't commit my stack I can re-raise with any two.  Maybe I am missing something but if you go all in, you want either your opponnent to fold or call.  If they call you, they, unless total maniacs, will probably have better hands then you.  By saying this, they should have better hand then you to call the re-raise, but to find out if they do or not have a better hand I am not willing to put my tournament life on the line (unless short stacked)

Not if he thinks you are restealing.

yep

So we all agree its either a call, push or fold???

Anybody else fancy doing something different?

Well raise is out (except push) and IMO flatcall is out.

Good post, tee hee. You can do all the ICM forecasts and analysis and it nearly always comes down to this 'shove it or fold'.

So fold or push? ;goodvevil;

yes...and (if you don't see the BB drool over his cards) 95% of the time it's a push.

This happened last night in the first tournament i have played online for a few months, he was the only player who had me covered. I've got my finger on the all in raise button all the way but just before i did it i had a real strong feeling that it was a bad spot, i ignored my gut instinct and pushed, he called flipped aces and i exited.

I was thinking for a while about it last night trying to figure out what my subconcious had been so concerned about and i had ignored. It's definately a tricky spot and this is the umpteenth time i have regretted not listening to my instincts.

There was another really funky KK hand in the tournment but i will look it up in the hand histories when i get home and post it.

Ahh well done Boldie your out!  U pushed and lost the big pot this is what you seem to do in the Stanley accumulate all the chips early and then boom!  8)

The flat call was the best option and then you get away from a bet on the flop.

we have to agree to disagree.

I was writing the whole reply while ACE2M has posted his reply.

I stick with flat calling, as to compromise your tournament life to find out if your opponent has a better hand then you is -EV IMO

instinct is ever so important...as pointed out by tighty (I think) in a blog..but unlucky none the less....


lol @bandit...accumulate and then go out?..nah...I accumulate..then piss some away and then still manage to get paid or win it (that's the way it's been going last couple of times I played there. :)

my HU games online are messing up my tourney play, I have to admit.

But what would you have done if the K had come down on the flop and he bets it again (or checks it to you..making you think you're ahead and you then go all-in)

the guy had Aces so that's fair enough...the flatcall unless it's a low flop will do nothing for you. if you hit on the flop (unless 2K's come down) you are still screwed. (unless you could fold if you hit and then you shouldn't have been in the pot in the first place)

I reckon you made the right play at the wrong time ...that's all.

Ul, i still think your move was correct.

The top pair and big kicker is another way to go out of the tourney if your reads are not correct.  

At this stage, and providing that you are against good players and you are good at reading your opponents seeing the flop is a better option.  If  bet and he comes over the top then you fold, if you check and he bets, you can also let go your hand if not connected.   Why would you go all in with top pair anyway?

It is a tournament after all and with his chip stack he doesn't need to push the button yet. 

ok..but he acts first so if you do hit your king and he checks what do you do on the flop? how much would you raise?

The best way to find out his holding is to reraise, the stacks are deep enough for you to stick in another 20k and see what he does.
I definitely wouldn't push with a stack this deep.

I re-raise 20k more, then call if he pushes. If he just calls then i now have the initiative on the flop.

 ;frustrated;

That is the easiest push in the world.

I think I'm with you, but I'd appreciate your thinking behind that.  What hands do you put them on?

really? why? I am thinking that for the BB to push here he must have a hand as one of the two stacks will surely call. Especially if UTG +1 calls the BB's push one of them must be ahead of you.

You might be right of course but I'd like to know the reasoning behind pushing here.

;iagree;

But your still not leaving yourself any chance to get away?

Are you potentialy check folding the flop? any bet you make at the flop commits you to it

OK so the BB was 32k on he is looking for a spot with his 11 BB's. He has a marginal hand like A9 or 55. He sees a LP raiser who is a big stack make it 12k, he knows that that range is quite wide. Now he sees another decent sized stack just flat call. Why would he just flat call, he doesn't have a powerhouse hand. Now the BB is looking at this pot, there are 2x 12k bets, 3k+1.5k in blinds and 1500 in ante's. So now he has a situation where there is 30k in the pot before it gets to him. He is already in the money and this is a great spot to gamble, the likely scenario is the original raiser passes for the 20k more leaving the non stellar hand on the button to call. That gives him a 74k pot with a good win %. The 2nd most likely scenario is that the original raiser re-raises to isolate, again a 74k pot. Although i admit this probably puts the BB in a worse position but thats ul when a LP raiser actually has a top hand.

So now lets imagine that we missplayed AK and actually flat called, now we have this re-pop from the BB and the orig raiser flat calls (presumably he is not to smart and wants to play a huge pot OOP) he so rarely has a hand there, we now re-pop with out AK destroying both players ranges. Happy days!

Just realised we are SB, the same still applies.


Why do i want to get away from AK? I am pushing the flop.

So you're going busto with AK at this stage of the tournemnt with fairly deep stacks whatever?

When i have 20 BB i am happy to go bust with AK.

then why not push pre-flop?

ok I get that BB could push in this situation also thinking he could double up or atleast get a bit out of it.

but, as you said in your following post, the raiser is an early position raiser..doesn't that change BB's reasoning? and if Early position raiser then calls surely you have to be behind (as he is still inviting you to push when you're in the pot...if he pushed after BB's raise he would more then likely be trying to isolate BB..)

Boldie, overbet much? - spring to mind?

Because to me that looks like AK. If i re-raise less i think i can convince JJ/TT that they might be behind. My main goal here is to get a fold.

We seem to have a mixup here, the raiser is the cutoff+1 (the hijack) that is late position, assuming this is a 10 handed table (30 left) if it is a 9 handed table then we are either 7 or 8 handed and again this makes our hand even stronger.

Do you think your resteal on the previous round is going to be a factor here. I think your 20k raise will make this guy re-pop you.




I don't think we are deep stacked here, we have 85k and it costs us 6k a round.

Btw, i'm still  ;all-in; Good debate though.

standard fold

With whole respect to all of the 'all in' supporters, you are looking at your cards and nothing else in this scenario. ACE2M has stated that he has executed the 'push move' before and the opponent folded.  If the opponent has any brain at all, nxt time he will raise ACE's blind, it will be a powerful hand, and the opponent will hope that ACE2M will push with AK/AQ/KQ and so on.  Perfect set up.  I don't think that ACE got unlucky here, as he did not have to go broke on this hand in the first place. And the fact that he sayd he had a 'gut feeling' must be a result of the previous actions of this player prior this hand.  With his stack he is able to find out by not going all in; if this is another steal or genuine raise.

He thinks you might know this so he can make this move to try and pick up the pot with rags. However, once you push he knows you are capable of doing this on a bluff so he will call with a range much wider than KK+. In short, when you push he probably isn't expecting you to turn over AK imo. Hope that makes sense.

I got a pm about this thread asking for my opinion on the hand, i would have shoved and ill give my reasons when i wake up tomorrow as im v tired and still a little hungover at the moment, :-)

Talk about showing a kid sweets...  ;goodvevil;

OK, i promised to give a more detailed response to this hand and naturally forgot, but after a quick nudge I will give my take on the situation.

You obviously have a hand that with just one raise to you, you are going to play. If anyone advocates an open fold in this spot, you shouldn't play tournament poker. So by the process of elimination there are two possible options flat call or re-raise.

Option 1 - Flat call

This is a definite possibility, but you are out of position in the hand and everytime you miss the flop, which is more than likely, you lose the hand to a semi-decent player. Continuation bets are the norm so if u miss he takes it. I'm not prepared to call 12k of my 85k stack and then be forced to give up if i miss the hand. The flat call would be much more viable option if u had the button because if he shows weakness you can win the pot regardless of if you hit the board or not. If you flat call and hit the flop, hands like 99-QQ are not gonna play a big pot unless they hit a set, so u still lose the hand anyways. He has a big stack and has opened from the cutoff, you labelled him as solid, but not super tight which means he could easily have a non-premium hand that cant stand a re-raise, but by flat calling you would give him a chance to outflop or outplay you since he has position. There are going to be instances where he has AJ, AQ and the flop is A high and you will probably win a big pot. The chance of the perfect flop is pretty slim though, so all those times you call off 12k, miss the flop and fold don't really make up for the times you get a double up. To summarise, I don't like flat calling out of position for obvious reasons, position is huge in poker, especially in tournament format with ever increasing blinds where you cant afford to bleed off chips by playing weakly out of position.

Option 2 - Re-Raise

This is the more aggressive play and negates the positional disadvantage you have in the hand. I think the fact that you re-raised him last orbit is a reason to re-pop him again as he may get frustrated and make a bad call with AJ, AQ etc.....   You have 30 players left from 600, the big money is gonna be in the top 3 spots, now you have made it this far you need to looking to get in shape to win the tournament. Your hand is excellent and is in decent shape against the vast majority of holdings when you get to see all five cards. Even if you come up against kings you still win the hand 30% of the time. Even though the original raiser has you outchipped it isn't by a lot, so he is basically putting his tournament life on the line if he wants to play with you. As i mentioned before he could very easily have a hand that cant stand a re-raise and you win the almost 20k pot without having to make a hand, bonus!.  So in short id be more than willing to play this pot all in preflop, however i wouldn't just shove it all in on top his raise. I would make it 40k total, showing a lot more strength than pushing in but there is no way in hell I'm folding if he comes back OTT. A problem could occur if he flat calls the 40k, leaving you with 45k going to the flop, with a pot of around 90k. It would be a very tough spot if you didn't hit anything and not one id relish to be in. I think there is too much in the middle to give up on it now and would have to push in regardless, maybe the flop is Q high, and he doesn't wanna call the 45k with his JJ who knows.

I know you ran into AA this time, but thats life. You cant be results orientated on the outcome of the move, you need to play your premium hands aggressively at this stage of the tournament if you want to win it. If you are happy surviving to make a little extra money then by all means call/fold when miss out of position, not for me though I'm afraid. I would vary my play between re-raising and flat calling if i had the button, leaning more to-wards flat calling if, as you said, the player who raised was solid.

good post pab... theres one thing I disagree with :


I notice Flushy said the same thing... what I'm interested in is why you want to show strength in this spot? It seems to me that of the hands that you want to fold out (AA and all smaller pairs ) ....AA--1010 (roughly)  aren't going to fold  no matter what raise you make, and the smaller pairs (55 and below) are probably going to fold irrespective of your raise, so by selling strength, all you are doing is giving the hands you really want calling a better chance to fold (AQ---A10/QK etc) Maybe it gets hands like  99---66 folding which would call a jam, but given theres more ways of making high paint combo's then pairs, I dont know if its optimal to sell strength with AK.

I much prefer selling strength in these spots with hands like 88/99 which really benefit from getting overcards out the way, but when you have AK, I think the last thing you want to do is to try and engineer your betting so that the hands you want to call will fold, and the hands you want to fold will probably call or fold irrespective of your re-raise size, which is why I am a huge fan of the push here bc you let the hands you want calling to make hero calls, by selling weakness rather then strength

thats my take on it anyways, I agree that calling here is a pretty bad play, and you are prolly rite that a smaller raise is best, its just not something I would do.

Good post

I think if u shove, people automatically put you on AK, rightly or wrongly but its the assumption most ppl make. If i can take the pot preflop i would rather do that than have to race, and i think there is a greater chance to do that with a smaller raise as TT- 77 probably folds even JJ can fold preflop due to the strength you have shown.