blonde poker forum

Hi folks, I'd really appreciate some input on this hand, so if you could tell me what you'd do at each point, that would be really cool and help me to learn how perhaps the hand should have been played.

So, what would your action be here and why?


(STEP 1)


***** Hand History for Game 5489792374 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, December 08, 01:42:39 ET 2006
Table Jackpot #1304230 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6

Seat 1: Pavel55 ( $256.55 )
Seat 3: snoopy1239 ( $530.15 )
Seat 4: A_Reza ( $116.82 )
Seat 6: No_remorse1 ( $712.45 )
Seat 2: JOSJOJO ( $83.20 )
Seat 5: neverfold678 ( $40.50 )

snoopy1239 posts small blind [$1].
A_Reza posts big blind [$2].

** Dealing down cards **

Dealt to snoopy1239 [ Aspades Ac ]
neverfold678 folds.
No_remorse1 raises [$6]
Pavel55 calls [$6]


ps. Please assume that you know nothing about your opponents.

I put in a nice big raise here. I will often be raising without AA so I like to do the same when I do have it. I also notice that I make quite a lot of money from others when they call or put in a small raise with AA so it makes sense to do the opposite.

Assuming the button folds, I make it $28 to go.

byron raises to $24 cos he is oop and likes to make his later decisions as easy as poss and cos he likes to squeeze a lot so he can get paid off here every once in a while.

what's the betting that tricky trappy checky scoops smooth called?

still waiting on button to act, if button folds make it $30 to go. inital raise seems strong to me. 3xblind from mp

Cool, how much would you make it Bongo?

Could be fun to see how much everyone wins/loses.

ps. Oddly, the hand history ignores the button player (maybe he was sitting out or something), so please assume that he folds.

ps. Please assume th

Well, to be honest, they don't have much to go on as I hadn't been playing with them too long.

They will have seen me clean one guy out though, A-T vs 7-7. I limped from the blind, he raised, I called. Flop = T-T-5-6-8. Action on every street until I bet the pot on the River and he called.

and another hand where I raised pre-flop with 9-Ts and hit a 9-T-x Flop.

That's how I reached $500+

As to what they thought of me, you can only assume that they were watching the above hands as nobody in this particular pot was involved.

Has no remorse bet out of turn? 

Iassume the action is

a_rez folds

No remorse raises

jos folds

neverfolds errrr folds - you can't trust anyone.

Pavel calls

then you to act?

Anyway there are two ways to play this hand

- put in a humungous reraise and hope that someone calls you.

- put in a standard raise and play weak tight post flop

AA with a 265bb stack is no way to make an easy living.

Just to confirm:

neverfold678 (under the gun) = folds
no_remourse1 = raise to $6
Pavel55 = calls $6
JOSJOJO = folds
snoopy1239 (small blind)
A_reza (big blind)

I'll post step 2 up tomorrow, but are there any more opinions before then?

allin>suckout

In a bad position here so I pop it up to $25.

Actually no , this is cash and we have the best hand so lets make it a bit cheaper and give our foes the chance to make a mistake. $18 to go.

$26

Standard pass surely?

 rotflmfao rotflmfao

$15 in the pot just out of personal preference i double it up to $30 dolla

Jens taken my laptop to Luton (it has the hand history on it), but I'll post the next step when she returns later tonight.

re-raise - 24-30

Well, it seems as if most people are agreed that I need to be re-raising to $25-30. I made it $26 to play, but looking at the size of the pot and the size of everyone's stacks, I would like have pushed it up to at least $30 to make sure that I don't get mutliple callers.

Okay, me to speak first, what would you do and why?


(STEP 2)


***** Hand History for Game 5489792374 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, December 08, 01:42:39 ET 2006
Table Jackpot #1304230 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6

Seat 1: Pavel55 ( $256.55 )
Seat 3: snoopy1239 ( $530.15 )
Seat 4: A_Reza ( $116.82 )
Seat 6: No_remorse1 ( $712.45 )
Seat 2: JOSJOJO ( $83.20 )
Seat 5: neverfold678 ( $40.50 )
snoopy1239 posts small blind [$1].
A_Reza posts big blind [$2].

Dealt to snoopy1239 [ Aspades Ac ]

neverfold678 folds.
No_remorse1 raises [$6]
Pavel55 calls [$6]
JOSJOJO folds

snoopy1239 raises to [$26]
Bongo raises to [?]
Longines raises to [$28]
byronkincaid raises to [$24]
johnmul99 raises to [$30]
jezza777 raises to [$18]
booder raises to [$26]
Suited_Jock raises to [$30]
tantrum raises to [$27]

A_Reza folds.
No_remorse1 calls [$20]
Pavel55 calls [$20]

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 3s, 8c ]

snoopy1239...

you don't want 2 callers with AA?

the pot is 80 right?

I bet 68

Not in cash and especially with stacks of that size. Aces is a hand where you can do the lot, so I don't fancy putting $500+ on the line with just top pair against 2 other players.

With 2 players, I find it more difficult to work out where I stand.

Just out of interest, what do you do if:

(1) Your $68 bet is re-raised by one of your opponents
(2) One of your opponents calls and the Turn comes a blank.
(3) One of your opponents calls and the Turn comes a scare card (eg. spade)

why do you not want 2 callers? i'm happy with the 2 callers, there is a poss flush draw but the only hand i'm worried about is a set of 8s or 6s, With $80 in the pot im putting out a feeler bet of $35, to see if anyones hit anything. with a reraise im first thinking pocket 10s or jacks and i raise again, with a call im thinking a slow played set or flush draw if i have 2 callers now then i would be very cautious IMO

1) repop and find out whether he has a set or make him really pay to hit non nut spade draw. Problem is JJ could push there too to your repop. With no info, its a tough spot...will a pusher all in have 99-KK or a set?

2) fire again, pot bet

3) check call, with nut flush draw, and try to keep pot as small as possible until the river then reassess


You are potentially doing your whole stack in any of the three scenarios


I actually don't bet $68 post flop, I might bet $120 making it look like AK (overbet appearing weak) either of the other two might take you for weakness with his TPTK or overpair in range 99-JJ  and then you have them

If they flat call I am more worried about a set than if they raise to that overbet. If it then comes a blank turn I am probably getting stacked to a set. If it comes a spade on the turn I can play the percentages and take him for a spade or a set if he fires strongly if I feel so inclined

I try to play a bit laggy preflop cos it makes it easier to play on later streets, people will stack off with over pairs and Top pair cos they think you're at it all the time. I always C-bet pretty much unless it's some kind of scarey board with a ton of callers. this board ain't that scarey ATM IMO 2 pair seems unlikely poss set yeah but there always is right?

I'm looking to stack an overpair here or charge them for their flush draws.

1) I'm pretty happy to be 3-betting here and looking to get all in against one opponent.

2) Sometimes I bet, sometimes I check raise. Again looking to get all in.

3) We got the As so maybe I check/call maybe I just bet out again dunno it just depends on how I'm playing and he's playing i guess.

It is very difficult to analyse this hand tbh, as without any info on your opponents in NHLE you will never know were you stand.  

You can put them on any range and only presume the situation, if one of them likes to call with suited connectors then your hand might or might not be good here. You got 2 callers now and you don't know anything about them, so it is time to find out.  

The play post-flop is mostly dependant on your reads on your opponents.  You say that there is no info, it is your first hand in this cash game?

NHLE is 70% of reads 30% of maths according to some of the top players out there.  

If 2 callers call it means that one of them might me looser then the other one, so bet out (pot bet) against 2 opponents and see who stays.  

I think pavel will stay and he is prob ahead there if he calls.
No-floper - I presume if he was raising from e.p he is the one with big pair.

This is providing that they are pretty standard players.

So I would say you are ahead against no-floper
and prob behind pavel

(but might be wrong here

a lot of people 8 table and don't get many reads

The way I play I prefer to have a better idea of where I stand. I don't like playing big pots against 2 players because you end up making too many guesses or assumptions. Just my personal preference, some people have no problem playing huge pots against multiple callers, but I'm not a fan.

This is one of my biggest worries, it could cost me my entire stack to find out. Do I really want to re-reraise only to fold if he moves all-in?


If they have the set, then they'll probably move in here, but they may also do the same with an overpair, so, once again, it's going to cost me my whole stack to find out.


I agree, I don't think I'd have much choice.



That's why it's such a tricky hand and why I'd prefer to play against just one player - so as to minimise the chances of doing my whole stack.


The biggest problem I see here is that the flush draw could encourage someone with a set to push in on the flop, which is what someone with Jacks or Tens would do.

I agree with you snoops, with no notes or prior knowledge thats why you probably should stack off here as an overpair and a set may play it the same way. Without the nut flush draw, I don't hink an oppo holding spades does

bigger pre flop raise to isolate 1 player??

Yes, that was definitely an error (one of many, lol) and as I said on the previous page, I should have made it at least $30 to play.

now on this flop, with possible set, flush draw and even 4s 5s for straight flush draw or an over pair. just less than 1/2 the pot looks good as a feeler bet. i think pocket knigs would have raised again pre flop, raise to $6 with queens seems to small ( i would look for an initail raise of $8-$10 with queens) so 9s 10s or jacks looks about correct for no remorse poss ace king. which i cant see him continuing with. Pavel however. with no info he could hold anything. small pair suited connectors, poss  9s Ts which he has already seen you win with, who knows.

with out getting too deep $35 on that flop should give you a bit of a feel if it has hit pavel but i wouldnt worry if remorse plays back at you.

Well, this is what I did next...


(STEP 3)


***** Hand History for Game 5489792374 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, December 08, 01:42:39 ET 2006
Table Jackpot #1304230 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6

Seat 1: Pavel55 ( $256.55 )
Seat 3: snoopy1239 ( $530.15 )
Seat 4: A_Reza ( $116.82 )
Seat 6: No_remorse1 ( $712.45 )
Seat 2: JOSJOJO ( $83.20 )
Seat 5: neverfold678 ( $40.50 )
snoopy1239 posts small blind [$1].
A_Reza posts big blind [$2].

Dealt to snoopy1239 [ Aspades Ac ]

neverfold678 folds.
No_remorse1 raises [$6]
Pavel55 calls [$6]
JOSJOJO folds

snoopy1239 raises to [$26]
Bongo raises to [?]
Longines raises to [$28]
byronkincaid raises to [$24]
johnmul99 raises to [$30]
jezza777 raises to [$18]
booder raises to [$26]
Suited_Jock raises to [$30]
tantrum raises to [$27]

A_Reza folds.
No_remorse1 calls [$20]
Pavel55 calls [$20]

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 3s, 8c ]

snoopy1239 checks.
byronkincaid bets [$68]
johnmul99 bets [$35]
TightEnd bets [$120]

No_remorse1 bets [$44]
Pavel55 folds.

snoopy1239...


Before I am ambushed with criticism, I admit that win or lose, hindsight informs me that I made some incorrect plays on this hand, and this check could well be one of them.  Either way, I can at least tell you why I decided to check.

With two callers I stand the chance of losing my whole stack if I run into a set, yet perhaps only winning a small pot if I am way ahead. From my experience, most players on my chosen site check a set when the pot is so huge, believing that on the Flop or Turn, someone will make a bet and commit themselves with a dominated hand that they will find difficult to fold, such as Aces.

If they do indeed have a smaller overpair such as Tens or Jacks then I fully expect them to bet around 3/4 of the pot, especially considering the scary flush draw and the fact that I have shown weakness on the Flop with a potential A-K.

IMO, offering a free card isn't too much of a problem. For me, many hands can be played more effectively on the Turn as people realise that they have only one more card to see. I also find it easier to decipher between hands on the Turn as the betting alters dramatically from what it would be on the Flop.

The bottom line is that if I reach the turn for free, I will have a better understanding of where I am whilst simultaenously keeping the pot small as possible if they have indeed hit a set. Of course, they could hit a flush, but I doubt they would have folded that on the flop anyhow with so much already in the middle.

Having said that however, if I check raise and am re-raised again, I still won't know if they have a flush draw, open ended straight draw, overpair or set, so I agree with those that suggest this is perhaps one hand that I can't get away from whatever I do. If I stick any money in, I honestly don't think I can fold to further action due to the amount of possible hands they could hold.

Perhaps this is why I checked, an attempt to keep the pot small.


Anyhow, that may all be bollox to you, but either way, what would your next action be after that bet?


ps. Thank you to every for your input. I feel I leanr a lot from hearing everyone's views. That's why I'm such a big fan of the hand analysis board.

cheers

push

all-in?

raise him by $150

ask him the question


if he pushes then he can still have a set, 99-KK or spades so its a close your eyes and count to ten moment whilst you call him

if you wanna keep the pot small then obv you can check/call all the way. personally I am thinking what can I beat here and what am I losing to. You're beating flush draws, straight draws and over pairs and losing to a set. I'm still looking to get the money in here but quite often I do check/call down with an over pair especially this deep.

if u wana gamble then move in cuz u cannot put him on a hand so boviously its a big risk.

personally i wud call him down i no if he has a draw u are givin him cards bt wats to say he wont call u if u raise an he has got a draw

raise to $200, see what he does. he calls, push on a non-scary turn, if he pushes, good luck to you and call.

there was a similar hand on high stakes poker,doyle brunson had aces, and daniel negranu (pardon the spelling) had  flopped a set of 8's. Doyle couldnt wait to get his chips in. and negranu (i know spelling!!) called a won a monster pot. I think all in is the correct play reduce his pot odds if he is on a draw. and if he has the set, never mind, thats poker!!

Assuming that I'm not going to fold, I don't understand why I'd want to bet out and give him the chance to fold a smaller overpair?

To be honest, I don't think I should worry about giving the draw their free card because they probably won't fold on the flop anyhow with that much in the middle.

He might well re-raise with that. If think if you check call all the way all your doing is giving him chances to beat you. I want to get as much money in the pot as I can while I think I'm ahead.

I like your check on the flop TBH..... I probably call here, and see a non spade turn and c/r him... If he checks behind, depending on the river i value bet/blocker bet and see what happens.

Everyone is saying what they would do, but few are saying what they actually put the guy on here.

What do you guys think he has from the bet he has just made?

Hmm,  i think he's got you in all sorts of bother with a massive draw... 9s 7s or 4s 5s or 9s 10s would be my guess. His preflop action's kinda swayed me to thinking this..

 9s 9h,  Td Th or  Jd Js

Me too although I would also add QQ.  I can't see him betting out unless he has a strong draw or a PP.

If he had a set I would expect a bigger bet with the flush draw on the board and $44 into an $80 pot looks like a probe bet to me (especially if he puts you on AK).  I would flat call here in the hope he has an overpair.  If he is probing he will probably fold if you re-raise and if he has an overpair you may force him to fold a hand you are way ahead of which is a bad result for you. 

If you flat call and he is on a flush draw he may opt to take a free card on the turn which keeps the pot small but will also give you a better idea of his holding.  I would expect him to check after your flop call if he has a medium PP.  He had got to be thinking what you could have to check call the flop.  AK is very unlikely unless it is AKs, so he has got to put you on a big PP. 

My guess is that he has interpreted your check as AK and has decided to take a stab at the pot.  Check calling the flop keeps the pot at $168.  If he fires again on the turn (unless he overbets the pot) it will cost you a lot less to call.

i think he has QQ

Good point. Don't push yet. Because he probably has 10s or Jacks in my opinion, and he could fold this hand to a push.

And also, if he has the speculated massive draw, as Rookie said, then hes probably not going to fold to a push anyway. So no real benefit.

maybe poket aces as well??

For the reasons stated by Raindogs above, I decided to smooth call his bet. I don't see how this bet can represent a set and I think he'd be happy to check the draw and see a free card. Therefore, I put him on a smaller overpair and thought I could squeeze some more out of him by letting him think I was weak.


Given that I have taken this action, what would you do once this Turn card arrived?


(STEP 4)


***** Hand History for Game 5489792374 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, December 08, 01:42:39 ET 2006
Table Jackpot #1304230 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6

Seat 1: Pavel55 ( $256.55 )
Seat 3: snoopy1239 ( $530.15 )
Seat 4: A_Reza ( $116.82 )
Seat 6: No_remorse1 ( $712.45 )
Seat 2: JOSJOJO ( $83.20 )
Seat 5: neverfold678 ( $40.50 )
snoopy1239 posts small blind [$1].
A_Reza posts big blind [$2].

Dealt to snoopy1239 [ Aspades Ac ]

neverfold678 folds.
No_remorse1 raises [$6]
Pavel55 calls [$6]
JOSJOJO folds

snoopy1239 raises to [$26]
Bongo raises to [?]
Longines raises to [$28]
byronkincaid raises to [$24]
johnmul99 raises to [$30]
jezza777 raises to [$18]
booder raises to [$26]
Suited_Jock raises to [$30]
tantrum raises to [$27]

A_Reza folds.
No_remorse1 calls [$20]
Pavel55 calls [$20]

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 3s, 8c ]

snoopy1239 checks.
byronkincaid bets [$68]
johnmul99 bets [$35]
TightEnd bets [$120]

No_remorse1 bets [$44]
Pavel55 folds.

snoopy1239 calls [$44]
johnmul99 raises to [?]
TightEnd raises to [$194]
byronkincaid raises to [?]
hotdog calls [$44]
moritzey raises to [$200]
Wardonkey raises to [?]
RookieITB calls [$44]
Raindogs calls [$44]
Horneris calls [$44]

** Dealing Turn ** [ 4h ]

snoopy1239...

The important bit of this hand is now "what does no remorse think I have"

He probably puts you on a big ace, but a pair or an overpair is a possibility.  He can't entirely discount a set.

He also could have a big ace, more likely a pair and less likely a set.

The turn shouldn't have helped either of you - but we are very much into player read territory.

It's another check from me - pretty sure he checks the big ace, bets the pair most of the time and bets the set always.

Given what he thinks you can have, I think he rarely makes a pot sized bet with a pair (but read dependent) so I'm probably folding to a pot sized bet, but if I'm calling I'm going to try a block on the river.

I'm always calling a half pot bet.

If he checks behind, probably check calling any reasonable bet on river.

ps I agree with the flop check.  The player most likely to have had a small pair was pavel and he has been eliminated from the hand without you having to risk any chips.

I think you have to check here.  The  4h is a good card for you as it is unlikely he made a straight or a set of 4's.  You have gone down the trapping route and have to stick with it.  If you lead out on the turn it will look very odd as the 4 can't have helped you given the preflop action.  Your biggest risk is giving him a free card and seeing a spade drop on the river.  If your opponent has a PP then he may think his hand is still ahead and bet again.  If he has nothing your call on the flop should have scared him into checking the turn.  The problem with checking is that if your opponent is any good he should put you on a big PP after your flop call and in that situation he may well check behind you with hands that will outdraw you.   If you lead out he may call and you make more money.

I've changed my mind.

I think I want to see where I am now.  I've got my fingers burnt before trying to be too clever and if the guy has a flush draw I want to make him pay for it.  If he has J's or Q's he may call.  If he has the set this is where he is going to raise and I can get away (slight possibility).  The check is a more aggressive play but I think it also commits you to the pot as if he bets the turn I think you have to raise.

For the reasons doubleup states, I opt to check.

This is what happened...


For the reasons stated by Raindogs above, I decided to smooth call his bet. I don't see how this bet can represent a set and I think he'd be happy to check the draw and see a free card. Therefore, I put him on a smaller overpair and thought I could squeeze some more out of him by letting him think I was weak.


Given that I have taken this action, what would you do once this Turn card arrived?


(STEP 5)


***** Hand History for Game 5489792374 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, December 08, 01:42:39 ET 2006
Table Jackpot #1304230 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6

Seat 1: Pavel55 ( $256.55 )
Seat 3: snoopy1239 ( $530.15 )
Seat 4: A_Reza ( $116.82 )
Seat 6: No_remorse1 ( $712.45 )
Seat 2: JOSJOJO ( $83.20 )
Seat 5: neverfold678 ( $40.50 )
snoopy1239 posts small blind [$1].
A_Reza posts big blind [$2].

Dealt to snoopy1239 [ Aspades Ac ]

neverfold678 folds.
No_remorse1 raises [$6]
Pavel55 calls [$6]
JOSJOJO folds

snoopy1239 raises to [$26]
Bongo raises to [?]
Longines raises to [$28]
byronkincaid raises to [$24]
johnmul99 raises to [$30]
jezza777 raises to [$18]
booder raises to [$26]
Suited_Jock raises to [$30]
tantrum raises to [$27]

A_Reza folds.
No_remorse1 calls [$20]
Pavel55 calls [$20]

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 3s, 8c ]

snoopy1239 checks.
byronkincaid bets [$68]
johnmul99 bets [$35]
TightEnd bets [$120]

No_remorse1 bets [$44]
Pavel55 folds.

snoopy1239 calls [$44]
johnmul99 raises to [?]
TightEnd raises to [$194]
byronkincaid raises to [?]
hotdog calls [$44]
moritzey raises to [$200]
Wardonkey raises to [?]
RookieITB calls [$44]
Raindogs calls [$44]
Horneris calls [$44]

** Dealing Turn ** [ 4h ]

snoopy1239 checks
doubleup checks
raindogs bets [?]

No_remorse1 bets [$99]
snoopy1239...


What is your action now and what hand(s) do you put him on?

flat call and check call river

What do you think he has?

he hasn't got the nut spade draw obviously

I think 10-10 thru QQ


possibly a set


One change to my suggested line would be on a spade river, where I might myself put in a blocking bet that looks like a value bet as if I was drawing to spades.

If he has the overpair he might pass, or he might value call with the losing hand

if he has the set he shouldn't raise you in case you've completed your draw and you get to showdown cheaper by the blocking bet

 7s 5s this has to be some sick story so thas wat ime gona say cuz thats y  i thik u hav posted it on ere but if i was at the table i would def think that he had 10s thru to aces

I think he has pocket 5's

I think you should play on a site with faster software.

It's week now and the river hasn't been dealt yet...

Agree

I don't see how anyone can be afraid of a flush draw after I re-raised to $26 preflop and then checked the Flop and Turn.

Raise. 

You only fear 8's or 6's and his preflop raise of 3BB is not what you would expect from 88 or 66 (would have expected a bigger raise in early position 6 handed).  I guess it depends how loose and how aggressive he is.  On any given flop a set is always possible, but given he didn't know there would be a third caller of your preflop re-raise I think he has to have a decent PP to call an extra $20.   He might have called with AKo or AQs but unless he is really loose I can't see him calling with any other unpaired cards.  That really only leaves 88 and you can't be afraid of that.  The benefit of raising is that you are getting paid for your A's.  If you check call again, unless the guy is a fool, he will check behind if you check the river (unless he has K's).  If he has a flush draw he may call and you make him pay for his draw.  If he puts you all in he probably has either K's or 8's.  The big disadvantage with re-raising to say $250 is you are now comitted to the pot if he pushes.  If he calls and a spade falls on the river what then ?  With the pot at $668 after your re-raise to $250, you have only got $210 left which makes it very difficult to fold on the river.

If you check/call again he has got to put you on AKs or JJ - AA based on your preflop re-raise.  Your check/call on the flop looks strange for AKs (I would expect a continuation bet here with 2 overs and a flush draw).  The other issue is what you do on the river if you check call the turn.  If he has a PP less then KK (possibly QQ) he is unlikely to bet the river so to get full value for your A's you have to bet out.  If a spade falls there is no way I am betting out.  What do you do then if he pushes ?  If you lead out when a spade falls I don't think you are representing a credible flush, having made a big re-raise preflop and then check/called flop and turn.

I think the key to this hand is how much you can narrow down his possible holdings.  If he is TAG then I think it reasonable to put him on a good PP or possibly a flush draw (although I would have expected him to take a free card on the turn).  Would he call a large re-raise with 8's ?  I think there are a lot more hands you can put him on that you are ahead of than behind.  If he is LAG you did not take the chance to find out how strong his hand was and now you don't know where you stand.  In this case I would continue check/calling and hope.

Why cant you have AQsuited/Aksuited?

why can't snoopy have Ace paint or bit of Spades and be trying to complete his nut flush as cheaply as possibly? from foe's point of view that is?

you might play the nut flush draw as check call on flop and turn? it would be passive, but it happens

you can certainly represent a flush if it arrives on the river, and it will serve as a blocking bet for you

This was my thinking

Snoopy re-raised from the small blind and is going to be out of position for the rest of the hand.  I can't see AQs doing that from the SB when there has already been a raise from early position (and a call).  That leaves only AK, a big PP, or a bluff.  Unless Snoopy has been playing fast and loose, his opponent is going to have a hard job putting him on 2 spades other than AKs.  If he was bluffing with 2 spades why would he check the flop ?  If his opponent makes a pot sized bet what then ?

 ::) ;whistle; ;whistle;

On the flop I am re-raising noremorse 3x his bet 132-140.  If he pushes I might call anyway.  If he has a set, that;s poker, the chances are he has a big pair.  no way i am flat calling here.

BTW I just saw Doyle Brunson going broke on the similar flop with AA, he went broke as he run into set.  so maybe if noremorse would push I would consider folding but then one cannot always run into sets, and my As might catch another spade, so I am playing this flop hard.

So your going to lose 250bbs with a pair.  How about 500bbs?  1000?  What is the max you are willing to lose?

I might win this pot there and then, why do I have to lose it?

what flat calling here will give me? hope for a miracle?
I mean one has to decide what you are going to do, flat call - and then fold on the turn if noremorse bets a pot on the turn? so you might as well fold it on the flop.

Sometimes one has to take risks, if you don't re-raise on the flop, you have no idea where you stand, and there are chances  that noremorse will fold on the flop to my re-raise. if he pushes i have to give him a credit for a set- but this will all depends on my read of the opponent as he might as well has KK/QQ/JJ. 

What is bad thinking?

deciding what you will do on the consecutive streets? or assuming that noremorse will bet the turn?

noremorse betting the turn is a guess as i have no idea what this player is likely to hold, but deciding what your actions will be on the consecutive streets surely can't be a bad thinking?

The problem that we have here is that we have no reads on our opponent and the stacks are very deep.  Despite efforts to make the pot small it is gradually getting bigger and we are going to have to make a tricky river decision.  What does he bet with each of tt jj qq kk and what does he bet with a set?

Against some players check raising the flop would have merits, but only if it's your last action in the hand i.e if called or reraised you know that your beaten.  I don't think we have enough info to make that judgement.  

I'm pretty sure that the only lesson that will come from this hand is when your this deep and out of position without player info, the best way to play is re-raising very big pre-flop.  

I don't

Flat calling tells you nothing about the strength of your opponents hand and allows him to draw to a flush cheaply.  It may also look weak to your opponent and encorage him to fire again on the turn with an overpair.  A raise (say $100) may take the pot down there and then, but confusion about your opponents hand in later streets may cost you your entire stack.  You have A's on a board with a flush draw, you have to raise to protect your hand.


I think you would need a very good read on your opponent to assume that.  He may also think that 2 checks means you are weak and another bet might take down the pot.  Even if he gets called there is a good chance that he will get a free showdown.


The problem I have with the way the hand played out is I am holding the A's yet I am the one worried about what my opponent has.  By not taking control of the hand I (not Snoopy) am now getting paranoid and seeing sets and raggy straights everywhere and have settled into check/call mode, hoping that my opponent will stop betting.  There is a potential set on every flop but that doesen't mean you should always assume the worst.

I wasnt talking about Snoops hand.... it was more an illustration (maybe botched??) with regard to someone elses comment above.

My comment was referring to Snoopy's hand and no other situation so I don't see how your comment can be applied here?




 Raindog has put it more eloquently the reasoning behind a raise or re-raise on the flop in this particular scenario then me.

I've deleted my comments in this thread, it is confusing the matter too much and sidetracking snoops post

Anybody think the A's held up ?

Are you going to fold to a reraise?  What are you going to do on the turn if your raise is called?

1. What are the chances that you are dealt at the short handed table AA and someone else has a pp?
2. what are the chances that this player has a pair and on the flop this player hit a set? while you are holding AA.

From what I am trying to grasp from al spach computations essays, the chances are slim, especially at the short handed table.

So I am raising the flop here, as most likely then not, the pot would be mine.  If the guy flat calls, i have to be careful, if he re-raise me here I am not so sure he has a set, i woudl put him on the big pair and probably, if he has a set or two pair go broke on this hand.  But this is a cash game, and poker and chances are that my AA is good here.

Depends on the opponent.

If I get re-raised I would be more inclined to fold to a LAG opponent that a TAG.  A tight opponent raising in early position is more likely to be raising with solid starting hands and would not call a re-raise (with the initial caller still to act) without a solid hand.  Having said that a push is more likely to be KK or 88 so its a very close call.  It also depends on how your opponent sees you.  If the opponent is LAG but a good player then I think I would fold.

If the raise is called you could narrow his possible holdings down to 88 for the set, KK or QQ, or a flush draw (the fact that Snoopy re-raised makes it unlikely his opponent thinks he has the nut flush draw).  The 4 hasn't changed matters (unless he has 25 or 57 for a straight).  I would check the turn here. The only hands betting after your check are hands that can beat a big PP which you have represented pre and post flop.  I can't see K's or a flush draw betting out unless you have been playing very agressively and stealing lots of pots (in which case your check might look like a white flag).  If your opponent is a bad player who likes to call all the way to the river on a draw then I fire again.

and what do you know about snoopy's opponent?

Nothing, therefore I have to rely on maths and probability of the event happening in order to proceed, using tools that are available to me to gain info.

Betting is one of those tools.  The chances are that he does not have a set or two pair, so by leading out with betting I might take the pot there and then.  Calling with an overpair will lead me to all sort of problems on the turn and river.  I don't want to go to showdown all the way to the river here.  Of course I suspect that the guy in this instance has a set or two pair otherwise Snoppy would not post this hand, but most of the time then not AA is good here at short handed table, and by being aggressive I give myself more chances to win this pot.

Raising the flop against an unknown opponent can lead to similar problems.  We want to get as much money as possible from a worst hand -that will probably never happen if we check-raise the flop.  I don't particularly like the position we are in by check calling, but at least we have TT putting money into the pot on the turn when it would have folded to a checkraise.


You do if he has KK/QQ/JJ/TT. 

fair point.


Still I would not check when F.T.A on the flop.  perhaps re-raise is not a great idea perhaps it is, but check and hope others will raise not so sure about it.  If i am against big pp i will be called all the way to river most likely.

I agree...

Almost there (promise, have been on hols so unable to update)...


(STEP 6)


***** Hand History for Game 5489792374 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, December 08, 01:42:39 ET 2006
Table Jackpot #1304230 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6

Seat 1: Pavel55 ( $256.55 )
Seat 3: snoopy1239 ( $530.15 )
Seat 4: A_Reza ( $116.82 )
Seat 6: No_remorse1 ( $712.45 )
Seat 2: JOSJOJO ( $83.20 )
Seat 5: neverfold678 ( $40.50 )
snoopy1239 posts small blind [$1].
A_Reza posts big blind [$2].

Dealt to snoopy1239 [ Aspades Ac ]

neverfold678 folds.
No_remorse1 raises [$6]
Pavel55 calls [$6]
JOSJOJO folds

snoopy1239 raises to [$26]
Bongo raises to [?]
Longines raises to [$28]
byronkincaid raises to [$24]
johnmul99 raises to [$30]
jezza777 raises to [$18]
booder raises to [$26]
Suited_Jock raises to [$30]
tantrum raises to [$27]

A_Reza folds.
No_remorse1 calls [$20]
Pavel55 calls [$20]

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 3s, 8c ]

snoopy1239 checks.
byronkincaid bets [$68]
johnmul99 bets [$35]
TightEnd bets [$120]

No_remorse1 bets [$44]
Pavel55 folds.

snoopy1239 calls [$44]
johnmul99 raises to [?]
TightEnd raises to [$194]
byronkincaid raises to [?]
hotdog calls [$44]
moritzey raises to [$200]
Wardonkey raises to [?]
RookieITB calls [$44]
Raindogs calls [$44]
Horneris calls [$44]

** Dealing Turn ** [ 4h ]

snoopy1239 checks
doubleup checks
raindogs bets [?]

No_remorse1 bets [$99]
snoopy1239 calls [$99]
TightEnd calls [$99]
doubleup [$99]
Raindogs raises to [$250]
tantrum raises to [?]

** Dealing River ** [ 3c ]

snoopy...


What is your action now and what hand(s) do you put him on?

I think the key here is what he bets with various hands.  He is more likely to have a pair than a set, so maybe the best way forward is to check and see if we can work out from his river action what he has.  He probably bets with KK, maybe QQ, but surely checks the rest.  He probably bets about 100 with these.  I think he bets a bit more with a set.

The other line is to bet 100-150 ourselves and fold to a raise.  I think this might be better as he probably calls a bet of 100 with some hands that he would check behind with.  So I'll go for that.

Could we fold to a re-raise for just $200 more with so much in the pot?

I'm pretty sure we are beaten if we are raised on the river.  I like it better than checking and folding to a bet of 300.

(Conlcusion)


***** Hand History for Game 5489792374 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, December 08, 01:42:39 ET 2006
Table Jackpot #1304230 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6

Seat 1: Pavel55 ( $256.55 )
Seat 3: snoopy1239 ( $530.15 )
Seat 4: A_Reza ( $116.82 )
Seat 6: No_remorse1 ( $712.45 )
Seat 2: JOSJOJO ( $83.20 )
Seat 5: neverfold678 ( $40.50 )
snoopy1239 posts small blind [$1].
A_Reza posts big blind [$2].

Dealt to snoopy1239 [ Aspades Ac ]

neverfold678 folds.
No_remorse1 raises [$6]
Pavel55 calls [$6]
JOSJOJO folds

snoopy1239 raises to [$26]
Bongo raises to [?]
Longines raises to [$28]
byronkincaid raises to [$24]
johnmul99 raises to [$30]
jezza777 raises to [$18]
booder raises to [$26]
Suited_Jock raises to [$30]
tantrum raises to [$27]

A_Reza folds.
No_remorse1 calls [$20]
Pavel55 calls [$20]

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 3s, 8c ]

snoopy1239 checks.
byronkincaid bets [$68]
johnmul99 bets [$35]
TightEnd bets [$120]

No_remorse1 bets [$44]
Pavel55 folds.

snoopy1239 calls [$44]
johnmul99 raises to [?]
TightEnd raises to [$194]
byronkincaid raises to [?]
hotdog calls [$44]
moritzey raises to [$200]
Wardonkey raises to [?]
RookieITB calls [$44]
Raindogs calls [$44]
Horneris calls [$44]

** Dealing Turn ** [ 4h ]

snoopy1239 checks
doubleup checks
raindogs bets [?]

No_remorse1 bets [$99]
snoopy1239 calls [$99]
TightEnd calls [$99]
doubleup [$99]
Raindogs raises to [$250]
tantrum raises to [?]

** Dealing River ** [ 3c ]

snoopy1239 is all-In.
doubleup bets [$125]

No_remorse1 calls [$361.15]

snoopy1239 shows [ Aspades, Ac ]two pairs, Aces and Threes.
No_remorse1 shows [ 8s, 8h ]a full house, Eights full of Threes.
The time at which hand ended:Dec 08 2006 01:43 ET
No_remorse1 wins $1085.80 from  the main pot  with a full house, Eights full of Threes.
#Game No : 5489793845

As you can see, I convinced myself that he had a smaller overpair and would call any bet. I also knew that I was going to fold to any bet that he made so thought I'd be best off moving all-in rather than allowing him to check the smaller overpair. Foolishly, I was also influenced by the River which made a flopped set of threes unlikely. Oops.

Thank you to everyone who took part.

I posted this not because I wanted to rant and rave at how I lost half a grand with Aces, but to find out if I played the hand incorrectly or not. From reading doubleup's review of the River, I'm pretty sure that my final bet was a poor one. As for the rest of the hand, I'm not yet sure. I'm going to have to read through the thread again and evaluate some of the wonderful advice given.

Once again, many thanks for offering your views, I try to take each and every one on board in order to mould my own game. I hope you got as much out of the thread as I did. It sure is eye opening to see how differently people will play what is a regular occurring hand in online cash - a set versus an overpair.

I guess that's why we love the game so much...

 ;angel;

I think threes were always less likely, as he raised pre. 

This was a bit of a freakish hand as the stacks were so deep and pretty well everyone would have lost a good amount.  I can't see how a standard 100bbs stack doesn't get lost here which is a more common occurence.  Maybe the only tactical mistake was not making a bigger reraise pre-flop as we were oop.  A 15% stack reraise only gets called by ak kk maybe qq.   

I think I said earlier in the thread that having a feel for opponents is more important that anything.  If we know that the opponent is a good player, a flop checkraise is probably enough to give us the info to fold.

I'm beginning to make a bit more progress in no limit by trying to protect my stack rather than the pot - ok this is exploitable by good opponents, but as long as I use the same tactics against them the effect is neutral.  This hand was a classic stack in danger situation.

With our stacks that deep, is there ever a case for folding at any point and finding better opportunites where I am more confident in my hand?

FFS  is this still going......................LET IT LIE ! :D

With all due respect, booder, I think that was uncalled for.

If you're not interested in the thread, then don't read it.

FFS if your not interested don't read.

Snoopy you always lose a lot here, the only debate is how much.

humour injection needed by mr beagle methinks

You need to put a smilie or something in there, booder. I wasn't the only one who misinterpreted the post.

post duely(is that a word?) amended squire.............no offence intended

How many times has booder made a bitchy post on blonde? My counter says 0. Surely it was obvious he was messing!

i did post some porn once    ;D

Thanks, my apologies fella.  ;nanana;

Like i say when has booder ever made a bad post, lol

Boo is evil (when do we get the uneditted porn?)

This flippin thread still going? FFS!  ;popcorn;