blonde poker forum

Someone had a very good idea on the other P4C thread. The original purpose for it had been served, and for this reason, there was an indication P4C were not going to answer any more querys on that thread.

Well here's a new thread....

Regarding the 70% administrative costs of Poker4Charity/Game4Life.

The primary thing that seems to be aired by those speaking for P4C at the moment is to blame the UK poker players for not having donated enough.

My problem with that is that it's not too constructive, and as someone who's organized a P4C tournament locally for no expenses, doing an expense-less sponsored STT drive for P4C, attending tournaments run by P4C in Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales, as well as making considerable other personal doantions to P4C, that argument just isn't going to wash.

I could have done more if I sold all my clothes, but maybe I'm just selfish like that.

The other main argument, that some good work was done and we should be happy with this, that won't work with me either. When they were given enough money to do three times as much stuff, when it is me and my friends who have been giving a lot of this money, we are within our rights to demand answers surely?



My questions.....

Are P4C taking this seriously, or do they just feel as if people are attacking them for the sake of strange-ass vindictiveness?

What (if anything) are P4C intending to do about it next year? What are they going to do to ensure that more than 30p in the pound, raised and donated by volunteers, goes to the kids in need of it?


Anyone else got questions?
Anyone got suggestions as to how to go about fixing this?
Anyone got any answers?*

*I understand the charity's one full-time employee is seriously ill at the moment. I'm not demanding answers from him. One would think any serious rescaling or restructuring in an attempt to fix these issues would be down to the trustees, and it is to them that I address the answers thing.
Or to anyone who reads the P4C site, if P4C announce anything relevant there, for someone to copy it here.

as its been two years of 30% in the £ donations, then I think change would be sensible

Until such time as the chairty has sufficient scale to absorb costs without dramatically affecting donation levels then I would suggest downsizing the costlier areas like live events and concentrate instead on online events, smaller scale fund raising efforts and then build up to live events in time

I would welcome transparency on the breakdown of admin and other costs, which I assume is in the recently filed accounts, as was stated repeatedly on the other thread


I post as a P4C platinum member, and donator at live events previoulsy

I'd like to support the charity again, but currently feel unable to do so until I see change that would enable my donation to substantially reach the causes for which I intend to give.

I would also hope that in future P4C people and volunteers do not claim expenses for attending events where those expenses take from the net sum given to the good causes.

The whole thing needs, IMHO, to resemble a volunteer led organisation rather than a trading company.

I do think this part is an unrealistic thing to expect, if people are volunteering their time its not unreasonable to expect to be reimbursed for travel etc.  Whether its deducted from the money at the event or other dontations then these expenses have to be met.  Its more managing the volunteers to keep those costs down eg having Newcastle based people run the Newcastle event so accommodation isnt required etc.  I also suspect that expenses are not the bulk of the costs incurred.

There are always going to be some costs and overheads to fundraise and those costs always have to be met from monies raised, I think thats a bit of niavity people have around charities (as was shown in the other thread), I think even big events like Children in Need have huge costs (3 miilion quid I think) and someone has to meet them.  Even Hospices (I did the accounts for our local one for a time) have to pay money to raise money (they had a lottery officer who was paid to grow that element of the business) and had overheads like shop rental etc.

I suspect though that unfortunatley this is the end for P4C, a charity needs goodwill to operate and I suspect this incident and the revelations of the costs will put off a lot of people volunteering or wishing to participate in events, unless they demonstrate a real change in the cost base or fund raising strategy. 

To a point I do hope I am wrong as there are organizations that could do with the money they could generate, Hopices in particular cry out for funding as they have to generate a lot of cash each year to keep providing the wonderful service they do.

you make some good points, perhaps I should have said keep expenses to an absolute minimum. Of course some expenses incurred in running any organisation are inevitable.

In that event, the end of P4C doesn't mean the end of UK poker players working for childrens charities.

If another organisation steps in to fill the gap, if they are more efficient, then this whole thing needn't be unfortunate. It'll be quite the opposite.


Not saying the charity definately should disband. The point you raise though, about the goodwill or lack of thereof. I think that option is worthy of consideration.

not in the ratio of 70% vs 30% going to the cause.

I think that is universally accepted....

Personally, if I am to donate £10 to a charity and £7 of it is being spent on overheads and costs, then I would like to know exactly where that £7 goes, down to the very last penny.
Only then will I consider donating.
I don't think that's an unreasonable request from someone who is handing money over.

As it happens trevor the last £10 you donated mate 100% has gone straight to the good causes

keeping costs to a minimium should be high on the cards for any charity so that the maximium amount of money raised can goto good causes

keeping volunteers local at live events will help
as will insuring costs of travel for trustee meetings are miniumised by using technolgy
wages should be offered as a % of money raised with a cap on it

ALL EXPENSES should be made public
so tha people donating know exactly where every penny is going

£1,860 donated on the day

£1,100 paid out to good causes on the day

£925.40 in expenses

Total collected = 1,860
Total paid out = £2,025.40

£165.40 more paid out than collected.

This matter is now no longer 'Blonde only business' and we would appreciate it if you would refrain from copying P4C accounts to this site.

Could these details please be deleted.

It is part of the T&C's of the site NOT to copy any content.

All are welcome to view these accounts on the P4C website.

Thank you.


EDIT:   Thank you James.
            Jonathan could you please also delete your post.  Thanks.

Buffet costs £316


Were the sausage rolls nice?

i was asked nicely to take down my last post as i was told it was not in the terms and conditions of p4c to post them this was from a p4c administator.

 rotflmfao rotflmfao            but     ;smackedbottom;

I have not copied content, I have simply pointed out what may be an error in the accounts, which are now in the public domain due to them having been posted on the P4C site. To say 'x' amount was donated is not copying content and without mentioning the amounts, how can any discussion on them take place?

benard has spoken. thou shall all obey.

I agree nothing wrong with what Jon has posted, it is not a C+P job.

Pathetic!

and can i say just because its not "blonde only business" doesn't mean its not blonde business. Ranting on here about questions being asked is not doing the charities already shredded reputation any good at all.

i was fed up tonight but you just made my night lmfao
wd red you only use 1 word where it takes me 100000000000

Who's ranting darling?

As it now seems quite clear that Trace has been appointed the official spokesman for P4C can I maybe speculate on their next appointment.

Finance Director- Nick Leeson??

Like the new avatar Trace.

I'm sure Roy Chubby Brown does a joke that goes something like

"They say you are what you eat. Well, I'm a ****!"

Maybe they can appoint you? As you have done so well with "sponsorship" money  ;nana;

i would just like it to be know TRACE didn't ask me to take what i posted down coz if she had....lmao i would have ignored her  AS SHE SAID HERSELF I AM NOT A SPOKESPERSON FOR P4C ,,,,,,,,,,,,,just a stirrer for them? maybee.......

 ;popcorn; ;popcorn; :cheers: ;popcorn; ;popcorn;

I have managed to return nothing to my corporate sponsors in the last year or two in fact I have given them very little value for money at all, you could even say I've had them clean in effect. You're right I would be perfect for the job, where do I send my CV to?

Wish you lot what take as much time in posting on the birthday threads   ;grr; ;grr; ;grr; ;grr; ;grr; ;grr; ;grr; not that i'm bitter or anything ..... and i havent got pmt........... at the moment  ;nana;

EXCUSE ME

I HAVE SAID WHAT? ? ? ? ?  ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

is this anything to do with charity?

Oh hang on wait though, the sponsors money went on buyins where I covered my own expenses etc so i didn't actually touch a single penny of the money myself. Maybe I wouldn't be any good for the job after all.

no , but this is blonde Sofa and threads may be taken over when wanted  ;D

you have openley said on here your not a spokesperson for p4c

No, but I am sure the sponsors now see it as charity!

lol

Please find these posts for me!

Ok I will stop now.

All light hearted fun u know ;)

Its ok Pauls gonna be kicked in the teeth any minute now  ;grr; ;grr; being a MAN he has to have his 5 pence worth  :)

So are you saying you are a spokesperson for P4C?

Trace, just wondering by your last comment, are you now implying that you are spokesperson for P4C?

it is very difficult to fin d a post when it may already been taken down ,,maybee i shoulda just found it and put it up first,,,,,,,anyway ARE YOU A SPOKESPERSON FOR P4C??????????? EASY QUESTION ??/

PMSL

not so quick to  answer she must be on the phone or msn...lmao

Thought ud like that one James ;)

I read James' post as saying that I have said on here "Im not a spokesperson but a stirrer..."

if you think I mind people taking the mick out of me M3boy you are sadly mistaken- I am more than used to it. If Betfair or whoever had been donating the money to charity instead of donating it to a prizepool I would have made absolutely sure the money was put to good use ( a lot better use than putting me in tourneys anyway). As I have never been a sponsored player this isn't an issue anyway.

Isn't it about time P4C stood up and just said we've completely made a **** up of all this and we will try and make things better instead of just trying to defend their position as if they have done nothing wrong? I for one would never dream of giving a penny to them or supporting any of their events after all this and I am quite sure many others feel the same way.

Before bernard or any of the others come on here to say I haven't supported them in the past there is a reason for this- I give to charities I feel deserve it. I was approached quite a while ago in Blackpool to be involved in the charity in some way but was put off instantly. We don't need to go into to many details on that but it didn't feel right.  

Funny enough, I was thinking something along the same lines.  :D

I heard his corporate sponsor was Enron......i wonder what happened to them after the deal.

After Enron, he got a deal with the BCCI ;)

Et tu, Brute?

I heard it was worldcom

more important to score points on me boys than let people point out how things have gone so wrong with a charity?

Lets let bernard explain how P4C are going to turn things round or if she is now their official spokesman when will there be more answers.

which reminds me, one of the merchandising items we are giving away at events next year is a self stirring mug...

We've also got 4 masseuses booked for the first event at Bolton and and the money players pay to get a massage will be going to charity. 100% of it. Blue Square are paying the masseuses wages.

blue square picking up the extras tab as well?

lolololol

Scoring points on you is more fun :)

all you seem to do is make matters worse for p4c,i personally have acknowledged that p4c have made some very bad decisions in what they were doing and you  are making it worse in trying to defend them i for 1 would think if davey newth would have come on here straight away (ok if he was ill) a real spokesperson for p4c his e.g his wife ange and hold their hands up and say we need help..... i can honestly say that this thread would be totally diffrent .to the sound of fair doos they really tried to do something here  okokok it was a bit of a cock up can people help us to put it right instead of ,,,some of the quotes coming from you...
Andy jags will put them up tomorrow hes KNACKERED
this thread was on about a little boys life........think about it
there were other things you said but to be honest your not worth talking to if your not the spokesperson....

LOL lets not go OTT Trace....

The point I was making is that you instantly reply to some posts that you choose to, but ignore others that would it actually be nice to have a answer to. So yes, it does seem like you have a conference before some posts. It would be much easier if an official spokesperson would post (but Angie won't, Davey can't)

Either you are a spokesperson or you are not.

lol

:goodpost: ;iagree;

In fairness I think all the back stabbing should stop until p4c have done what has been asked of them and printed up all the figures.

Only one event has been printed out so far and immediately everyone is up on high horses.

If you look at the figures they have for Cardiff it would suggest that they made just over 50% profit on the day as presumably the grants given out on that day was from previous donations/games.

I know the number of people that attended Cardiff was FAR less than expected and I for one can hold my hand up and say I didnt go when I posted I would.

The amount raised could/would have been far greater if everyone on the list had turned up.

Can we just wait till we have a bigger picture before jumping to conclusions.

THE BEST POST ON THE SUBJECT BY FAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The key thing to remember about Cardiff is that the best player won at the end of the day........

Also that i knocked Rudders out...

far too sensible Suzanne

Anyone need a good PR guru?

You only won it coz I wasnt there ;-)

ok so if this is the case sue.......it has taken 17 days and over 530 posts on this subject to get one statment (figures) up from p4c then i have worked it out on a ratio of one every seventeen days   (no posts to nag them)  it would take1 whole year to get 34 statments (figures) up you think this is fair ????  for a business

Card rack at the final table, your 36o outdrawing my 66 as I recall.

tut tut

If the grants awarded on the day were from previous events that would explain the discrepancy in the amount raised versus the amount awarded in grants/spent on expenses, but its odd that no explanation of this has been offered, just some figures that without knowing this, don't make sense.

What we should be told is how the £935 odd quid raised at the Cardiff event after expenses were then subsequently used. If the grants awarded on the day were predetermined and handed over from funds raised at previous events, they should not be included in any accounts for the Cardiff event.

Good memory you have their tank

NOW THAT IS THE BEST POST BY FAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 jon your so frikin brainy,,,pitty your pony and poker lol.....

All im saying is give them a chance.

For 17 days everyone has been asking for figures and as soon as ONE set of figures is up everyone is up on their high horse. I would assume that now we have 1 set of figures the rest will follow shortly.

Lets wait and see the bigger picture and THEN make constructive comments.

WHERES TRACE GONE?????
are you a spokesperson or what??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

No offence...im not the sharpest knife in the box but even I realised that money rasied would have to go through the books before it could be reallocated.

Thats why im saying we need to look at the bigger picture

I did actually wonder that myself Mr Raab. Now they have admitted giving only 30% to good causes then they backtracked and gave Maureen a lot more than the 30% (deservedly obviously) does this mean the money from some of the other events has in effect just paid for the shortfall? I would imagaine 2 or 3 other events have in effect done nothing but pay for the "missing" 70% in the costs that has been given to Maureen, Stacey and Reece. If this is the case the other events weren't charity events they would have been business events covering nothing more than operating costs- ie a business fundraiser.

We don't have any figures on here, and we are not allowed to copy them to here, why not?

listen sue thats all people are saying,,,i presume on behalf of p4c,,,why should people have to wait and see?it was their money they gave all they want to do is see how it was distributed ? its not bloody rocket  science....accounts, leddgers, petty cash, it should all be to hand asap

its all to cock m8,i think they may have thought if they pulled the wool over it may be forgotten...

My recall is ok.

Flushy actually had the 66, I had the 36o and moved in on his blind from early position in the final.

In the table before that, I'd gone very deep, helped by doubling through Flushy on my immediate left. Moved on his blind with ace rag, he woke up with KK. I lucked out.

Then I went short again just before the final, trying to bully a calling station. There were trophys for all the finalists, I was over estimating his desire to get his hands on one, and he called my huge KQ re-raise with AJ. It was a 3 way pot, Tighty with a very short stack was the 3rd player from the big blind, he had K8.

After that pot where I donked off the last of my chips with 36o, Flushy ran over the rest of the locals in the final and took the cup, it was a good effort.

Can't remember my Mum's birthday was last week though  ;ashamed;

Woooooahhhh....hold on a minute.

I am NOT a spokesperson for p4c.

I went to 3 live events (including the Reece game), played in the VC p4c rebuy frenzy league, am a gold member and even donated my second place winnings in one online game. I dont know exactly how much I have donated but more than I could afford to be honest being a single parent.

I am as keen as everyone else to know where the money went.

Im just saying give them a chance to explain.

I think either you are doing it intentionally or you are overlooking some matters here.

It's not as simple as "30% goes to good causes the other 70% is admin" if you walked up and gave P4C £1,000,000 then almost all of that would go to good causes.

Now i am not a spokesperson for P4C but i would imagine most of the admin costs are covered by the corporate donations. Then the money from the actual events, the money raised through poker players mostly gets spent on grants.

When we quote a figure of 70% for the year then try to apply it to specific events things don't add up because they are completely different.

ah ok mate now i understand. Some events (the ones where a fuss is made)  can get almost 100% of the money going to good causes but some dont. The overall average is a 70/30 split though on the year. Makes it a lot clearer for everyone that.

with all due R.E.S.P.E.C.T. sue they wont explain its been 17 days not once has the owner of the charity come on here to explain ok hes been ill ok his dads not well ,but bloody hell 17 days and cant find 10 minutes to post anything on this topic ? i think he deserves a kick up the arse personally,we all know that poker players are night owls and im sure 10 minutes to post anything would have been better than posting nothing at all.evn if solicitors are involved atleast get someone(a spokesperson)or even trace to say he cant say anything due to solicitors....just say something for christs sake instead of nothing..... ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated;

What i am saying is that 30% of ALL money raised has gone to good causes, this may work out as NONE of the corporate donations going to good causes and ALL of the event money going to good causes.

They have their fixed costs, and they try and raise as much as they can.

It's not as if they take all donations, and decide to spend 70% of them.


The issue as I see it is could these fixed costs be trimmed right down. A poker tournament raising 1.8k should be put on for less than 900 quid.

Fair enough flushy. If what you're saying is correct (you aren't a spokesman by your own admission so we don't know) then its the corporate charitable donations that are paying to run the business. I can imagine that the companies who have placed these donations would be pleased to hear this and the taxman maybe would as well as all corporate charitable donations are tax deductable (in effect none of the money would be going to good causes). I sincerely hope your assumption of how P4C works is wrong because if it is right it is contravening several laws.

As I recall tanky you went to the Cardiff game so you will KNOW that there was a poor turnout.

If all had turned up the % would have been much higher.

If it was as straightforward as that, wouldn't this have been offerered as an official explanation before now...

like my post said that i took down this is similar and not copied from p4c site
    
£320 on a buffet i reckon that all wouldda rather-ed money go to good cause
nearly £270 on hotels and a room for a tournament director?wtf ,,,,wsop?
nearly £170 on 9 trophies for final table ...ridiculous in my eyes
nearly £190 on hire of a van and tables which p4c already own both of but they decided to hire them ????
this is almost £1000 i dont think should have been spent on this small tourney
if I'm wrong I'm wrong  but i don't think so.......
but as having had my own business since i was 14 this is not good accounting i

Of that i declare ignorance i have no idea bout the laws governing charity's.

I don't see how that would be the case though, good thing i am not a trustee! lol

My 2 pence.

£320 seems over the top for the buffet.

4 nights of hotel rooms seems fair, you can't really expect Angie, Davey and Mel to only spend 1 night in Cardiff.

£170 for 9/10 trophies seems reasonable to me

£190 to transport the tables from Newcastle to Cardiff and back again doesn't seem OTT to me.

why 3 people to run a small tourney???why 2 nights were they visiting?
why the hell 9 trophies and not just 2 you only get 2 in the wsop main event
they have a van just over the bridge with their tables in it  THE oneeye told us

I have to say that I was a bit taken back by the buffet charge as this is unusual.

On the 3 events I went to, 2 of them had snacks/meals that could be bought over the bar. The 3rd had an OUTSTANDING buffet that was donated by the casino and we were ASKED to donate a fiver to eat as much as we wanted.

Buffet charges are not the norm.

Must be some fkin bridge if it goes from Cardiff to Newquay !!

2 hours 30 min driving say 3 hours=6hours driving total around about ...£50 maximum in deisel £5 bridge
       i know i send a van there twice a week to jeff williams furniture (plug jeff lol)

OK lets put this into real basic terms so everyone understands.

After being shamed into giving the money to the people who deserved it from the Western gig is it possible there is still a "kitty" of cash awaiting distribution from other events? If so how much. If not where has the money gone.

 All this should be quite simple to clarify by simply making available the charities records/accounts (something If I am right in my understanding of the UK charity laws should be available for scrutiny if requested). If you don't want to publish the accounts on blonde that is understandable but at least answer the question- are there any accounts? Are there receipts for expenditure etc.

The spend on the Cardiff event was ridiculous IMO- how many other events were missmanaged in this way and run at a virtual loss?

17 days is a long time guys and people are getting even more restless and feeling more uncomfortable with this situation than we all were before.

Mel was the 1 person running the tournament, Davey does things like running an auction / sell us tat. Angie helps Mel out during the rebuys by being a chip runner and she also sorts the raffle out.

As for 2 nights, when exactly do you expect Angie and Davey to travel? They live in Newcastle, its quite a distance from Cardiff. I am fairly sure Mel is not local to Cardiff either!

You may be right about 9 trophies being too much, i have never thought about it tbh.

I am pretty sure the tables are kept in Newcastle or St Helens, it may be Cornwall but i don't think so.

With regard to the 3 people's hotel, even bearing in mind it was expected to be a larger comp, maybe one hotel room woulda been enough, and volunteer's  (either local or travelling anyway) can assist with the running of things.

Trophy's for the top nine is a nice touch, and I was quite chuffed with mine, I assumed it was a couple of quids worth though, didn't think it would all add up to as much as 170, that's a little OTT I think.

The buffet seems to be the biggest and most obvious way to cut back though. Did it come from a hotel mini bar?

I suppose, fair play to P4C for releasing these uncomplimentary figures. The others will be interesting when they come, and eagerly awaited.

you know what i feel like giving up with this but no,no,no coz the amount of personal messages i get everyday by people who are scared to speak their mind thanking me for keeping this thing live and asking me to ask questions on behalf of them.... NO I WONT STOP royal flush ireally think you should take a long look at the whole topic mate this started off by a woman who was embarrassed to ask for what was hers (in affect)for a sick child.it has taken 7 months to get some sort of payment after a fashion.
and now blonde members want to know where their money is gone ?do you think itsright that Davey wont answer on this topic??? people want to know ...to be really honest with all of you on Blondie i couldn't give a f-ck where the moneys gone  I HAVE NEVER EVER GIVEN anything to p4c and wouldn't from the off.all i was concerned about was  that Reece got what he deserved,but i am being asked by a lot of people to find out for them >>>  e.g WELL KNOWN PEOPLE PLEASE,PLEASE KEEP IT ALIVE DONT LET THE THREAD DIE, i cant ask coz blah blah blah well i will ask coz for one i ain't scared of ANYONE  and these people know it .this is why i ask i better go now coz i am getting angry and remember what the HULK used to say......................

"I've ripped my pants again?"

youd chit yours if you could see me now,im just starting to go green

If you hit me and I find out about it.......

Are you a spokeshulk sofa? ;)

When did i ask you to stop?

i would never hit you i like you in fact i think i love you xxxxxx your cool.....in a type of cool way....sort of    lol

I saw Tank's reasoned, eloquent & even-handed (imo) Post before I went offline this evening, in fact I approved it's publication, & it was agreed to put it on a new thread to keep it seperate from the sometimes over-emotional stuff elsewhere - after all, it's facts that are needed, not rhetoric.

I have come back online totally dismayed that the thread seems to have developed into a mud-slinging contest.

Clearly, Trace has become, the de facto Spokesperson for P4C, & let's be right, that's very noble of her. But to me it's unedifying, & smacks of a lynch mob mentatlity - I don't like it at all. OK, I know, emotions are running high, it's an emotive subject, but to see everyone attacking Trace I find just horrible.

Then again, how has this come to be allowed? Who, in their right mind, would allow a lone person, male or female, and not formally connected to the Charity or Ltd Company, to be almost the sole defender of what's happened, while an entire organisation stands behind her totally silent?

This is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

My relationship with Andy (Jagster) & Tony Banbury is just fine. We met, exchanged views fairly & honestly, & got started on clearing up the "mess"/lack of transparency. They both know, & agreed, that this issue is not, not NEVER, EVER, going to go away until some transparency arises. Facts & figures, lots of them, all of them, are needed, together with explanations.

The whole affair has been characterised by a quite startling lack of information from P4C. As long as this remains the case, one can only speculate as to why the silence. And the longer it continues "as is", the wider the concerns become disseminated, it's now starting to appear on other Poker Fora.

I do think that Andy (Jagster), &/or Tony Banbury, (BigSlick?) need to Post on blonde, come up with some facts & figures, & clean answers. They were, I believe, wholly straight with Tom & I when we met in Stoke last week, & done themselves, & P4C, much good by giving us some facts, even though some of the facts were unpalatable.

More of the same is needed, even if the answers are not what the blondes/donors want to hear P4C MUST give them something to chew on. This Corporate silence, interrupted only by the lone voice of Trace defending them (&, one imagines, being briefed by them on a Post to Post basis) is just not gonna work, & is so wrong.

I just cant get comfortable with this "baiting" of the lone defender. Equally, P4C should not allow that circumstance to arise. Come on, P4C, do the decent thing & make your case properly. We are talking Registered Charity here, so it's a must, & the Accounts of Game for Life Enterprises Ltd are, presumably, now in the public domain.

I don't want to see this "baiting" continue, but if P4C don't Post, it's tough to see what will stop it, even though I don't approve.

Come on Andy, Tony, time to step up to the plate, & lets get this affair put to bed. Until you do comment, the speculation will continue.

sorry but id already wrote it and i wasnt doing it again so you got the brunt of it sorry lol and you didnt ask me to stop.....

Ok and as for the topic as a whole we have talked through PM's and through the board and i think you know how i feel about things, i am just trying to help in the understanding of the cost the Cardiff event. Buffet too much, Trophies too much, hotels and van reasonable.

well done tony atlast a great question by the owner of this site..........you are right about trace but if she do stand as a forefront then things will be directed at her imho....your last comment was the best ive seen well done....i am now going back to a paler shade of fleshy colour....

I liked my Cardiff trophy, but no way is it worth its share of £170...

buffet too much

less of an issue with hotels and van.



I feel sorry for Trace too, she's obviously a passionmate defender of her friends and an organisation she believes in. I would criticise those that are leaving her out to dry.

The yearning for fully transparent figures is not going away.

While I agree with what you say tony if Trace has put herelf in the crosshairs shes going to get shot down every now and then. It isn't fair that she is the lone voice on here for P4C but she's a big girl and has decided to take on the mantel herself. Some of her posts have been less than diplomatic so we respond accordingly. If we got the answers that we seek then maybe they could salvage something out of the debacle. Please step up and do the right thing P4C because if you leave it much longer it will be too late to salvage anything.

I've had a few PMs asking me why I keep referring to her as bernard and it is not anything unflattering about Trace it is just me continuing the comment on the other thread about her being less diplomatic a spokesperson than bernard manning or chubby brown. If I had started referring to her as chubby people would've assumed I was being offensive for the sake of it so I started referring to her as bernard (as in manning). Trace does get the "joke" as she has changed her avatar to chubby brown and if she had thought I was being offensive to her for the sake of it she would have pm'd me I can assure you.

Why should (IF Trace decides to speak for P4C) she be attacked on a personal level?

This to me seems unfair to say the very least, and does NOT help things. All it does is start s slanging match again, which no one wants, or should want.

I posted on here (yes at Aristons expense) to "lighten" the tone of the thread.

ok m8 im sorry i think you just got the brunt of it... i had to go back to the 9th of dec you last pm  me and i see what you say,ive had ssssssoooooo many pms on this you wouldnt believe

NP i know you mean well!

I think a word about Flushy is in order, too.

He's aligned himself with P4C for a long time, & done, I'd guess, more to promote their cause than almost anyone, & probably donated as much as anyone, also.

This "affair" is hurting him badly. He's not implicated in any way whatsoever, let's be quite clear on that. He's trying to keep things in perspective, trying to keep "balance", to help Trace defend the cause maybe, but this is just wrong, too.

He & I chatted when this first blew up. All I can say (publicly) is this - he knows how many beans make 5, and my respect for him has increased 100% - he's still trying to defend what seems, without the official facts, the indefensible.

More reasons, it seems to me, for Andy or Tony to take over, & comment officially. It's wrong that guys like Flushy have to do the job, he's done enough already.

does anyone else find it interesting that almost all of the time this and the other thread has been running there are always "hidden"/guest users viewing them. Come on join blonde and give your two penneth worth, maybe you have been to one of the events and have questions.

then again there may be a more obvious answer as to who the guests are, I wouldnt know ???

I played in two P4C events at Newcastle.

For one, Thomas Kremser was TD.

Now, I like the "other" tk. But failed to see the reason for flying him over from Austria paying him and Marina wages and expenses to run a £10 rebuy comp. I said so at the time and I say so again.

I also found it astonishing that when they when P4C ran a tournament in London Gutshot charged them over a grand (can't remember the exact figure) to hire out their cardroom.

I think P4C overreached itself. It tried to be too big, having tournaments and events all over the country, when it would have been better served as a localised charity.

Even better, P4C should just have run online tournaments where expenses would have been virtually zero and all the money raised could go to charity.

Live and learn. Assuming P4C folds, hopefully a more streamlined organisation can take its place, because running charity poker events is a great way to raise money for good causes.

My respect for him has also increased 100%. It now stands at 0.02  :D

Has anyone from P4C recently recieved a Peerage or Knighthood by any chance? ::)

I was one of the FIRST if you look back on Maureens thread to say WTF is going on and I like the rest of the forum have waited for answers.

Maureen/Stacey and Reece have now received what they were owed due to the issue being raised on Blonde and a big thank you have to go out to all who were involved in putting this right. There was I agree a HUGE question mark as to why they did not receive the money sooner and this has obviously done p4c damage that might be irreversible but I hope not.

They will in the near future put up account figures and then its down to the individual as to whether they will continue to support p4c or not. I will make up my mind when I know ALL the fact.

I would like to say though that quite honestly whether your intentions be good or bad I for one am getting a bit tired of the Ariston - sofa---king tag slagging off team going on here.

You have both admitted that neither of you have given a brass farthing to p4c so why dont you both back off for a bit and let those that do/have supported p4c decide what they want to do.

Over and out...wish me luck in the 2.5k xxxxxxxxx

^^^all above was typed before I crashed out.

Nice post tikay

hits a very large nail on the head!

OoooooooooK........

I dissappear to play online games and comeback to this!

I think i will leave well alone as anything i contribute will only fan the flames.

Billy

Just to mention about the van in cornwall and tables connected with cosmo clubs cornwall, i believe (don't quote me) that cosmo clubs may have been started after the cardifff event. Although i may be wrong.

Didn't Grosvenor ban the P4C owners because they were taking punters out of the their casinos for the occasional charity do? Doesn't AlrightJack work either directly or indirectly or at the very least have strong business links with Grosvenor?

Most people commenting have genuine questions about what their money has been used for. Is that only the case with AlrightJack?

Just wondering.

It seems to be common knowledge that some principals of P4C are banned by Grosvenor, but it's unlikely that there has been any official reason given for this, as Grosvenor are not in the habit of justifying or explaining the reason for bans they place on Members.

Lots of folks hold Charity Events without getting banned by Casino Groups.

Yes, Alright Jack (Jonathan Raab) is closely connected with Blue Square, who are in the same ownership as Grosvenor Casinos. I believe his "interest" in this matter is entirely genuine, & wholly unrelated to his business relationship with Grosvenor. You may not be aware that Blue Square were a Sponsor of the P4C ICHUC Events, & as such, donated a lot of cash to P4C, mainly via paying travelling expenses, hotel costs, & buying shirts, for those taking part. This enabled all the money raised at these events to go straight to P4C (& their Charity Partners), as Blue Square had picked up all the expenses. Sadly Blue Square parted company with P4C recently, when, if I understand it correctly, Blue Square felt unable to continue to support P4C.

So I do think Alright Jack has a genuine reason to have an "interest" in this matter, he has contributed a great deal to P4C.

seems weird to me that a company would ban them with one arm and sponsor them with an other.

The first time that I met Jonathan was at the Xmas P4C event in Nottingham 2004, he actually went on to win that event. He has also played at other events in the past, so like many of us he has personally donated to P4C.

Well that's not quite correct, it's not like that.

P4C are NOT banned by Grosvenor, one or more individuals connected with P4C ARE.

And Blue Square, who used to sponsor some P4C Events operate entirely autonomously from Grosvenor, & I imagine the Gaming Commission & Compliance would ensure the reltionship was squeaky clean.

I am not sure where this "line" is going, but I believe Alright Jack & Blue Square have behaved entirely properly, there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, & no lack of transparency whatsoever as to what they have done, when, & for how much.

I'm rather busy at the moment and will comment fully later, but Tikay's posts are largely correct regarding my/Blue Square's relationship with P4C.

now your beginning to sound like P4C..........

 ;goodvevil;

(just joking ;))

lol

18 days and counting. nah, i'd have forgotten the question by then.

what question ???

:dontask:

Thar jonothan raab is a shady character, i personally witnessed him cheat in a blackjack tournamnet, against  helpless old woman,  shocking

i agree - taking chips off the table mid tournament only to replace them towards the end was shocking.

I know, to pull extra chips from his pocket midway through the tourney was a disgrace!

Or was the fact that he denied it even worse?!?

LMAO

In that case I'd suggest you tell the people pming you to send the pms to a mod instead. The witchhunt is turning into bullying lately, just because other people are egging you on does not make it right.

wtf bullying lmao....you really think that ?...a witchhunt...are you serious ?

The silence from P4C is deafening and as each day passes their credibility diminishes.

100%, not solely to you, but to a few. Both Flushy & Suzanne have made sensible posts and ended up practically accused of being P4C appologists. Tikay's asked for calm to no avail.

The sensible post that started this has been lost in a storm of bitching and backbiting, which reduces the impact of what Tank said. The current atmosphere seems more likely to NOT get answers IMHO.

to be honest rod thats it for me now then ok,you said not 100% me but yet you stick it in a replie to one of my posts,i have not had a go at sue or flushy,or" BULLIED" anyone ever in my life.
JUST THINK NOW ROD you have stoped me posting on this thread .so to all the people who pmd me to (in most of your words)please,please,keep this thread alive for us we want answers but we are to close to p4c to ask.let it be on your head.......ive had enough of being shot down for doing nothing wrong,but trying to get the TRUTH............1 last thing a lot of the mods on here are mods on p4c and they felt they couldnt trust them ok...

rod you can say whatever you want but you wont shut me up on this issue and I don't care if you are chief mod or whatever. I am supposed to keep quiet because I haven't given a brass farthing am I suzzane? never gonna happen. I too have a pm box full from people who can't speak up for one reason or another and dress it up however you wish rod but I say things as I see them, always have and always will. I ain't a bully just someone who speaks his mind. None of the mods have really given their own personal thoughts on p4c- wheres your balls?
I shall not be part of this just going away or being brushed under the carpet. Plenty people want answers and I am not afraid to ask. maybe we should give them another 18 days and sit here all nice and quiet?

I'm sorry, but some of the haranguing in this thread and others has crossed the line into bullying IMHO, I'm not saying you did it deliberately, but this is getting a mob feel about it. If you feel insulted or slandered then I'm sorry, you can PM me anytime and we can discuss it.

I'd welcome anyone who has a problem asking their question to PM any Mod and ask them to post the question.

My balls are fine Ariston, nice comment to someone you don't know. The Mods (of which if it comes to seniority I'm the newest alongside Sheriff) have a duty to EVERY member of the site, and I try not to get as involved in the arguments as it's part of the role to moderate.

As someone who has attended P4C events I have my concens as well. If you want to start a slagging I'd suggest we go to PM - The balls comment illustrates my concern about the flaming & YES bullying that has ended up on these threads.

Em, no, none of them are. Glad to knw the trust is there  ::)

The main point being that if you attack P4C in a manner that falls far towards the bad side of the diplomacy spectrum, they will have the option to address the manner in which they are being questioned, and not the questions themselves.

40 pages of threads in the last couple of weeks provide evidence that this may be happening to a degree.

It's not my place to tell anyone to can it, especially when I'm not exactly canning it myself, and it's not my place to tell anyone to play nice, but I'll ask that we consider it anyway.

Well brand me a bully then. I got thick enough skin to handle it Rod. I will continue on this thread until P4C come on with satisfactory answers to the issues that have been raised or until you ban me. Read the other thread to find out who the bully was offering to meet me and tell me not to hide behind a forum. A bully is something I have never been because to have a bully you need someone weak who is to be the victim. If you really think P4C, Trace or any of those are weak you are mistaken. Lets not dress them up as victims please, they are the ones making this worse with their silence.

Ariston, sofa


IMHO various mods, myself, RED and tikay in particular have been critical in a lot of areas on P4C and have posted as such

However we also have a responsibility to this site as Moderators to ensure that we uphold the values of the forum, so we remain even handed and moderate as best as we can.

Believe me, these threads are not simple...for every person who contacts us to say "why did you delete that?" there is one who says "Why did you leave that up, it goes too far?" about another post.  

Last night some of the attitudes expressed on this thread went beyond what was acceptable to some but NOT to others. IMO the more P4C gets harangued relatively unconstructively, the longer progress will take.

That is why I hope that any criticisms mods make are expressed constructively, and I beleive that has been the case.

 :goodpost: ;iagree;

good post tighty and I will react to that one and tone it down better than one branding me a bully. The only time p4c was bullied was they were bullied into giving Maureen, Reece and Stacey what they were entitled to and for that I offer no apology.

and, to repeat what has been posted by myself and others earlier in this thread

It remains my view that I feel sorry for Trace who, IMO, has been hung out to dry by those in authority at P4C by having to post as a friend of the principals but isn't an official spokesperson. We might not agree with her, she might even say things in a way we wouldn't, but at least she fronted up.

The main failing here on this thread, beyond the wide concerns about P4C, is the complete absence of PR, damage control and updating from those within P4C in a position to do so. I accept that there are some reasons, including iillness, why thbis might be so to begin with but do not consider it acceptable to put Trace in the front line repeatedly.

My point, is that if you, we, in effect harangue them, then they will feel less inclined to answer.

This is a forum for people to express their personal views on many different subjects, its kinda lame to do things for others on a forum for whatever reason.

That go's against the very nature of a forum?

pss Pm all your nasty questions you want asking to stir up shit.

I have taken the mickey of Trace but not attacked her, there is a difference. As most on Blonde know I was good friends with her at one stage so there is no bad feeling or malice towards her. When she is the sole voice defending p4c on here she is bound to get some flack though. Shame on p4c for putting her up as the scapegoat if you ask me, its about time someone officially involved started to give answers instead of relying on "friends".

I have just spent some time reading this.

I feel that time is marching on and answers are still not forthcoming.

Rather than go back through so may pages does anyone, off the top of their head, have any idea as to when we were to be expecting further answers? Or are we expecting any answers at all?

Does P4C think that now that the Maureengate issue has been dealt with (ish) that they have no further responsibility to answer questions from this forum?

I ask this not to be provocative - just because I genuinely don't know where we are with this.

Are we entitled to any more information - P4C doesn't have to answer anything if they don't want to surely? I think it's a given that most members here won't get involved with the charity until they have more info, but some are keen to resume donations in some cases. Has P4C given up with the idea of wooing any blonde members back?

Depends who asks. Maybe the charities commision would get a better response than any of us. I am sure they will be aware of the issues raised on here by now as I know of several people who have informed them about this and the other thread.

Guys, COOL IT.

I said this last night (well, at about 0300 this morning).....


"......I don't want to see this "baiting" continue, but if P4C don't Post, it's tough to see what will stop it, even though I don't approve.

Come on Andy, Tony, time to step up to the plate, & lets get this affair put to bed. Until you do comment, the speculation will continue......"

Well they have not responded, but let's be fair here, maybe they have not seen it.

I'm gonna do something rather than just join in the moaning - I shall drop a note to Andy (Jagster) & Tony Banbury (BigSlick) & give them a link to this thread.

Please - PLEASE - give them 24 hours or so to respond.

I hate this one-sided stuff, I really do.

Wow, I asked for some time, & you gave us it - the POWER!

OK, I PM'd Andy & Tony, & Andy rung me. He is driving right now, but someone saw my Forum Post & contacted him presumably.

He is offline for a while, maybe until tomorrow, but he will Post then.

So please back off with the "why don't P4C respond?" until he does. That's not to say you can't continue the debate, you can, but they ARE going to Post, so that's good.

If someone wants to simply & even-handedly Post a little "bullet-pointed" summary of the questions that need answering -  fairly, not aggresively - I imagine that would help, too.

Thanks.

Andy also suggested that Davey Newth has a family member who is very unwell, & so he is down in Cardiff on "family duties". I think we should bear that in mind.

I am offline now for a good while, all evening maybe, but my Moby is on if anyone wants to speak to me urgently on this matter.

I feel I want to post on this thread for a couple of reasons.

I think the heartfelt/emotive posts by some people on this (and the other) thread are to be applauded but those posts need to be fair and I do think some of them have crossed a line in a small way. If progress and answers are achieved then some of this progress will have come from the hardline threads as well as the gentle requests so on balance providing nobody is personally insulted I think both styles have a place.


I have one uncomfortable feeling at the moment. The original charity event at the Western was to help a young man that is very ill and ease the pain of his family that are under extreme duress during these bad times. I know this hasn't worked out very well at all and I am saddened that Maureen's family have had to wait so long for their donation but please remember this, Davey is  ill at the moment and I imagine his family and close friends are having a bad time at the moment too.

 What I am trying to say is it wouldn't be in very good spirit to support a charity day for a person that is very ill, who's family are needing support from friends and then add more stress and hurt to a person(Davey) and their family and friends when they are also ill.

If there has been neglect of duties in running P4C I am sure this will come to light and as long as the finances are all present and correct we shouldn't be hard on a man and his family if the good work they have done has got out of hand and records have not been updated or as transparent as they could have been.

Remember, good has been done by the charity but I do share the same feelings as most regarding the issues and % per pound that has gone to these causes.

regards

Jon was very instrumental in getting money to P4C, he sponsored the first ICHUC aswell as attending a number of P4C events. Blue Square supported P4C AFTER Davey and Angie were banned from the casino chain, Jon is also not a direct employee of Blue Square any more so i believe his questions are coming from him and not a snipe from Rank. Also if you knew the guy you would know he is an honest fella!

I thought i would also add that at the WHU festival in Barca last year i came to Jon with a proposal that a few of us who were going down for it would wear BSQ clothing whenever we were playing poker in return for a donation to P4C. Jon had a very hard sell to BSQ to get them to agree to this as it was unlikely to yield much exposure for blue square, however, Jon somehow convinced his bosses after hours of trying and thus secured a sizeable donation.

I guess what i am saying is Jon is like a lot of people on this thread, in the past a big supporter of P4C who is now feeling a little confused and upset at the way P4C has been managed.


Anyhow peace out.


P.S. Bobby1, good most m8.

cheeers flushy

nice most pal

oh and  ;popcorn;

Hi.

I am not a big user of forums and never have been (see number of posts on this forum), but was made aware of this thread by a friend who contacted me, and am replying as soon as i could have done.

After the meeting with Tony & Tom we (Andy & myself) asked Davey for financial information to be sent to us. This has not been done as Davey is in Wales to be with his father who is very ill.

When Davey does return and sends said information Andy & I will, at the first opportunity, go through that information.  But please understand both Andy & I have our own business' to run and cannot - and I mean no offence to anyone - drop everything to pamper to members of this forum.  We too want to see this resolved as soon as possible, and will do this as quickly as possible.

I must express disappointment at the way Trace has been treated by some posters on this thread, and appreciate Tokay's comments on the matter.  I as a trustee have not "Hung her out to dry", and resent that accusation.  It is simply that I do not sit at a computer all day posting on forums.

As for the subtle digs at me personally, I too have broad shoulders !

May I wish you all a Merry Christmas & a happy New Year.

Tony Banbury

Happy Christmas and a peaceful New Year to you and yours Tony  :)

Have a good Xmas m8, hope you and the clan are all well!

Well that should calm things down a bit ...... Have a pop at people who use THIS forum, AND people who spend a lot of time at a computer.

Not sure if you could have come across any more pompous in your post.

Im Sorry to hear about Daveys Dad, and i wish him well.

So, just for clarification..we can with 100% confidence say that no one within P4E was telling Trace what to say, or asking her to post?

OK then.

Back to spending some time elsewhere on the forum, lol.....


p.s the word is "pander", not pamper.


Pomposity must be catching....

I am really sorry I spend so much time on the forums but I dont have a business to run, I am a poker player who spends maybe 14 hours a day online and uses the forums in between times at the tables. I will try and cut out this habbit as it is obviously wrong.

I agree with Kev on his post to an extent but I think he could be more pompous if he just put a little more effort in.

Thank you for posting and expect to hear from you again at some time in January (another 18 days or so). 

I'm off to pamper a panda now ;)

That's the excuse I've been using too.

Of late though, I'm finding it quicker just to tell people that I'm a dodgy wierdo.  :P

that reminds me.................anyone seen Sark lately ?             :D           (smiley inserted to show humour is intended)

With respect sir, the very people that have given £30k this year to the charity are the people that sit in front of computers for hours on end, I know you didn't mean this to be a direct insult but I would have thought a little diplomacy would have been more appropriate.

Regards

Or perhaps a bit training in customer services?   :dontask:

I promised I wasn't going to post again but I feel I have to after what has been written.

I for one will admit there have been mistakes made, and we want to do all we can to rectify these and try

and answer all of your questions, but please bear with me, as you know Davey is in Cardiff his father is very Ill,

and I am at home with 3 young children. So I will try and answer these for you,

but as Tikay said if you can make a list I will try and get through these questions for you as best as I can and as quickly

as possible.

All the tournament expenditure has been posted on the P4C site, if you wish I can copy it here, just let me know.

As for contacting the charities commission you are well within your rights to do, they do have access to Game For Life accounts and will answer any questions you have for them.

Ang

With regards to Tracy, I'm sure she means well in her support of this situation.

Some people imply that it is Tracy that is being bullied, from where I'm sititng, it appears to be the other way round.

I made one post on this thread that was of no relevance to Tracy, then was PM'd by Tracy shorty after trying to intimidate me into saying nothing more on the issue.

I took this as a threat, and it was not well received.

Fine she has her point, and wants to make it.  But by being aggressive and overly nasty is not the way to do it.

Also by trying to silence others is very out of order.  Everyone has the right to an opinion, and to voice it.

People aren't looking for excuses, they are looking for real answers.To give answers you need information.

It became abundantly clear to me in the PM I recieved from Trace T that her information is some what muddy.

Hey, ifm, you have 145 messages, 10 are new.

Why me?

p.s. I hate this thread (and the other), yes i AM reading them :D

yeah i PM'd you 10 times because i was bored.

I have donated to P4C in the past, but I am not a regular and have never attended any of their events, so I have refrained from complaining on these threads.

However, after reading about costs and whatnot, I thought it would do no harm if I just made a few observations:


Jen and I always share rooms to save money. Surely volunteers of a charity can do the same.

I see no point for trophies at all to be honest. Does a winner of a chairty comp really require a trophy?

A buffet can be provided cheap, people need food, not a Ritz dinner. That figure seems unusually large.

What would you have me smash instead?!?!

Lol, if anyone SHOULDN'T be critisising the cost of trophies it's Mr Raab after his juggling act in Luton.  ;hide;

Was the one in Hamilton a P4C event, Flushy?

Shut it luckbox

Lol, it was a serious question.

I don't think so, i might be wrong though.

I still haven't collected that bounty for killing of Chessa, that was a great fun game though.


I had 2 P4C winners trophies, both sat up nicely by my desk, i rocked back in my chair a bit to hard and knocked them both off. The one i really liked smashed (was from the event rob sponsored), the other, a somewhat cheaper trophy survived. :(

Definitely.

Quick final table though, huh?

As far as im concerned Trophies are important, the little tournys i run the trophies are what make people come back, as it happens i pay for them myself, which really i have to, because Its my job to get people in the seats. With regards to the buffet, in cardiff for instance im pretty sue that we paid for it in advance with a £10 fee. These tourneys that p4c organise go on for a long time, the christmas one in nottingham race course there wasnt a buffet and after 6 hours play everyone was starving. In the end davey managed to get the staff to russle ups up some chips,but only because satty kept on knawing at his leg.

Yeah was a bit mad, i think the silly filming they did at the beginning of the final took longer than the final itself what with all the giggling.

Thank you, hope you and your families are well.




1)   No “pop” at anyone. If you are into forums, that your choice and I respect that.
2)   I spend as much time as anyone on a computer as using them are a major part of my job.




Sorry about that. But what does it matter anyway, you seemed to have missed the point about what I am saying. And with regard to "pompous". So, I come across as pompous in the written word. I'll survive (hopefully long enough to get to the bottom of whats been going on with the charity).



It may be another 18 days, who knows?  But it WILL be done as soon as possible. I can do no more.



In short, give it a rest guys. I - along with Andy - really do want to sort this out.

Christmas is only 4 days away and i'm sure Jaggers and Tony have alot on there plate with just that , can we not leave the demanding till after the New Year ???

have to say you seem to be the perfect volunteer for a charity. If you pay for the trophies yourself and cover your own expenses etc I would suggest you should have been running p4c from the start yourself and I bet the 30/70 split would have been reversed as you wouldn't have had such exorbitant expenses at each event.

In answer to the comment above the buffet at most fundraisers we hold we are 'tied' to having the buffet provided by the hosts at a fixed price per person expected. Not always ideal, just the way it is.

So if the expected number of people don't turn up we still have to cover the cost.

No snoopy it wasn't a P4C Event.

Below are the figures from all the events held this year.



Donated from the Didcot event £1130 25/3/2006

Sobel House Hospice - £150
cushions and videos with a value of £125 were donated directly

Helen House - Screens for their Therapy room (2) £210
Aromatherapy oils and other equipment £341.66

Buffet £21.93

Raffle Prizes £43.15

Travel & Accomodation £172.98


Western Event 14/5/2006

Donated on the day £3165.50

Paid out so far to Maureen£4165.50 whilst £2000  is currently held awaiting instruction.

Digital Still Camera & Digital Video Camera - Keetch Cottage. £425

Travel and Accomodation £294.10

Stationery and Printing £25.96

Trophy £100


NECC 2006 26/08/2006

Donated on the day £2575

Tiny Lives  - £1000 - Donated on the day.

St Oswalds Hospice - £186.96 Xbox and a variety of games.

Travel - £20

Marketing - £125.00

Trophies - £137.75

Prizes - £27.50

Valet Gratuity - £100


NECS 2006 27/08/2006

Donated on the day - £2590

St Oswalds Hospice - £950 for camera equipment and a bath winch for the use at the hospice.

Marketing - £125.00

Prizes - £27.50

Trophy - £137.75

Excess money from this event went into the Game For Life general fund to be used in future grant awards, to pay governance costs.
However soon after this event Bannatyne's casino closed without any notice. Game For Life was due to hold a fund raiser at Bannatyne's 10 days
after the closure. Accommodation had already been secured by Game For Life in respect of this event and participants were due to repay Game For Life for this accommodation on their arrival. Due to the rearrangement of this event (no fault of Game For Life) a loss of £1500 was incurred by Game For Life.

Scarborough Event 9/12/2006

Donated on the day - £810.20

Trophies - £96

Travel and Accomodation - £201

Motherwell 24th June 2006

Donated on the day £485

Travel and Accomodation £80


£11,615.70 Was donated to P4C From Tournaments.

£10,229.12 Was given out as Grants.

thank you for coming on to explain further Ang, it is much appreciated I am sure


Just out of interest, would the hotel not refund the £1500 to a charity where the cancellation was clearly no fault of the charity? I expect they resold the rooms, or at least they usually try to in such circumstances.

Seems a bit mean spirited (name and shame!!)

Im pretty sure they did sell the rooms i phone up to make a booking the next day and they said they had some available, the following day they told me they had none.
With regard to the trophies the only exspense we have had is we paid £75 for our player of the year trophies, also the van road tax was covered for £97.

But if you followed my thread on the other posts you will know that my setup costs and running over that period was over £4000 all which i covered as i had been doing very well online. The fact that we have made ovr £2000 just shows that even on  a small scale its hard work. But in the next year our running costs should be next to nothing at all.

In case your wondewring what the hell im going on about im talking the cosmo club that we set up.

Apparently the only reason we were asked for full payment of the hotel rooms was because it was on the same weekend as the Great North Run, although we did explain that we had nothing to do with that they still wanted payment for the rooms in full, and if I remember rightly this was just over £3000 for 14 rooms.

We were told if they could sell the rooms then they would refund the whole amount again unfortunately this was not the case and they did refund £1500 back to us. The refund took just over 9 weeks to get repaid to us. Thanks Premier Travel Inn!!!!

Thank you Ang...

I would have thought on Great North Run Weekend the occupancy in the region would have been massive and resale would not be a problem, maybe not though.

Thanks for naming them too. 

They flogged for shizzle, bastards.

Still without all of that we would never have had the caravan experience or the infamous Palestine's comment

That was what we thought, but they were messing us around telling us that the rooms had gone back on the internet for sale, but when a few of us checked there were no rooms available.

possibly the funniest weekend of my life.   where is Ian "at-it-at-lidls-drives-a-poofs-car" Bradley these days ?

I dont believe for one second they didnt sell those rooms. £1500 is a hell of a lot of money!
write to the MD of the Travel Inns.
Ask for confimation for occupancy that night.
if your not satsified with their answer .... theaten them with the small claims court.(this can now be done online and cheaply), and bad publicity.

i do not wish to fan any flames or cause further unrest on this thread , but are there any figures to show what profit was made on the Irish (individual and team) heads up events.if they have alreadt been posted somewhere,please pm me and i will delete this post.
thank you.

Ripple we all thought the same thing, we all tried and we all threatened them with the newpapers et etc they were having none of it, because we signed an agreement they were entitled to keep the money the £1500 was a gesture of goodwill on their behalf......so they say.

Hi Booder,

I only have access to the P4C events I'm afraid, until Davey returns home.

Ang

ok  thanks Ange.

Added to the list Tank

Ang

Working with the rest of us 9 to 5 ers - a bank in Kilmarnock i believe

Cheers.

Ok - I have a question - this link http://www.lifecycle-fundraising.org/display.php?op=showgallery&page=16 takes me to a project at the Bluebell nursery school which looks exactly like (in fact the pictures are the same) as the ironside project on Game for lifes web site.

What contribution has GFL made to this project - my assumption was it had paid for this to be rebuilt etc but Lifecycle (whose name is on the wall in one of the pictures on the G4L website) states "As with all the nurseries built from the 2005 Ball, funds have been put aside for all operating costs (including teachers' remuneration) for one calendar year."

It would appear that this charity has built the nursery and will be paying for ongoing costs. 

So my questions are:

1. Why have the GFL pictures have a different name above the door (albeit a temporary board)

2. What has GFL donated to this cause?

Thanks

Tracey

Thankyou for that, the Motherwell expenses look to be not as bad as I feared.

The expenses add up to just over £4.1k there, including the £1.5k lost to the Hotel and the £0.9k in Cardiff.

Earlier, we were told the total expenses for the year had been £20k.

With the £8k wages, and £4.1k accounted for here, a remaining question is what was the other £7.9k spent on. I understand if we can't get this inforamtion right now right now. We'll wait patiently, but firmly.

(Someone want to check my maths)

http://www.shivacharity.net/ (http://www.shivacharity.net/) << If you look at this link the guy who actually runs the charity you will see in total 21 different schools with Ironsides and Bluebird nursery.  Bluebird Nursery School is the first of Lifecycle's sponsorships, and replaces a Pre-school in Thirikkovil. Ironside's Game For Life Nursery School is situated just south of Batticaloa, in the middle of a Tamil community.
http://www.game4life.org/index.php?page=srilankaschools  (http://www.game4life.org/index.php?page=srilankaschools)

So I am not quite sure what you are implying.


The total cost for this was £2500 and £2500 for another school which is being built at the moment

Ironside has a school named after him ?   wow  Respect to the Scottish chappy

Tank,

Andy has not given out any figures for this year, so not quite sure where you have got that figure from, it was said by Tikay that it was an estimated total for 2006 but as for the exact figures I do not personally have access to those I'm afraid.

I am more to do with the running of P4C and not G4L.

Ang

I'm asking why it looks as if both of these schools appear to be the same.

On the G4L page with photos you can clearly see the name of the Lifecycle charity to the right of the door
So I'm asking what involvement G4L had with the project as it would appear from G4L photos that the project involved the other charity as well.

If would appear that you are telling me that the Lifecycle charity don't have anything to do with your project - so why do the photos that are on the G4L web site suggest that they do?

I then go on to the charity web site pictured in your photos and they have details of the project suggesting they have funded it.

I'm asking them the same questions, I'm not saying that G4L is at fault here, it's a genuine question as both charities seem to be taking responsibility for this project.

What does the £2500 do - does that cover the building of the school in its entirety?

Thanks

Tracey

My mistake then

What does the £2500 do - does that cover the building of the school in its entirety? yes it does.

I believe Lifecycle are a contributor and supporter of the Shiva charity, what form this supports takes I do not know, but I am prepared to make enquiries with Shiva, unless of course you wish to do so yourself.
Most if not all of the photographs of Shiva projects I have seen carry Lifecycle plaques.

Ang

Thank you Ang, & the mood on this thread is so much better now we have some info from "source", thank you.

I must say, I'm a little confused when you say you are more involved in P4C than G4L - surely, in practical terms, they are the same thing? Were the Heads Up things (ICHUC?) G4L rather than P4C?  I'm a bit bamboozled by what difference that makes. To "us", P4C & G4L are one & the same, & any suggested difference only muddies the water.

I shall be making two important (imo) Posts on this thread today, both intended to be construtive - and then I'm gonna consult with my fellow Mods & suggest to them that the thread be locked on Christmas Day & Boxing Day, & re-opened on 27th December. That will allow for some festrive cheer to take effect without "bad blood", & hopefully things will have calmed down by then.

I must say, FACTS are THE most important thing - it's good to talk, & Ang's appearance on this thread has worked wonders already.

Yes, the figure of 30% for 2006 came from Andy & Tony. They suggested the % would "not be better" than 2005, & I'm sure they will confirm that.

I note Andy has not Posted today, as he suggested he might, can we assume you are responding on his behalf?

Basically I have more involvement in organising poker events for P4C then the day to day running of G4L, although I am a volunteer for G4L as all funds raised from P4C go to G4L.

Ang

Ange, Thanks for passing the info on.

No I am not here on Andy's behalf, I am just here to answer any questions I can until Andy can get onto the internet himself.

Ang

Anyone want to bullet point it as Tikay suggested to help Andy out when he gets online this evening?

I would, but I'm not of sound mind right now. Have started early with the festivities.

I noticed the Lifecycle logo a while ago too, but after this had all kicked off I thought it was not a very good time to start asking what the deal was.

I think what Dingdell is referring to is that on Lifecycle's site they have stated that they are building 12 nursery schools (7 of which are already built), and one of these is named as Ironsides Game for Life school, basically it does look like they are implying that THEY have built the school http://www.lifecycle-fundraising.org/display.php?op=showgallery&page=33 (http://www.lifecycle-fundraising.org/display.php?op=showgallery&page=33)  As you know the school is also listed on SHIVA charity's site http://www.shivacharity.net/iron.htm (http://www.shivacharity.net/iron.htm) It certainly is very confusing and unclear as to who has funded what.

As I stated earlier maybe this will have to be taken up with the Shiva Charity.

Ang

Ahh, I see, thank you.

North Angel (Ang...) wrote.....

Basically I have more involvement in organising poker events for P4C then the day to day running of G4L, although I am a volunteer for G4L as all funds raised from P4C go to G4L.

Ang

This is the crux of so many concerns, we don't grasp the need for three "arms", (Game for Life Enterprises Ltd, Game for Life (the Registered Charity) & P4C (??) ) but we'll put that on the "ask Andy" list!

Ok I will try and clear this up...I hope

Game For Life is the Charity.

Poker4Charity is simply a campaign of the Charity. Poker4Charity is just a name applied to poker events that raise funds for Game For Life.

Game For Life Enterpirses Ltd is a wholly owned trading company of the Charity Game For Life. 100% of its shares are owned by the Charity. It was set up on advice of the Charities Lawyers in case Game For Life  ever wished to trade in any significant manner i.e if it ever decided to open High Street shops, Internet Cardroom etc.

Ang

Thanks Ang, & that was pretty much my understanding. I think it's best left to Andy or Davey to deal with this aspect properly, as it's likely to get heavy. The key to all, or much, of the concern, I think we will soon see, is how transparently the movement of cash between each of the three "arms" is shown, & how "Admin" or "Management Charges" are calculated.

I think it unfair to expect you to be able to answer these.

Andy, it's up to you now!

Andy (following on from tikay)

Is there any guidance you can give us on the following?


If money is donated at events it is donated to P4C, who hold the events.

There is then a mechanism by which the funds are transferred to G4L from which donations are given to the good causes.

I think this is correct. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Can you explain (or perhaps it is in the accounts, i don't know) how the transfer works and how any deductions for admin charges (over and above deductions for expenses incurred on the day, as discussed elsewhere) are calculated as part of this transfer pricing process?

Thanks

Money donated at events is donated directly to Game For Life. I know this because when I donated at the Newcastle event the receipt that I was given was a Game For Life receiept. Which I also remember you received one at the Western event. I am sure Andy will confirm this.

Ang

cheers Ang.

Im a bit confused regarding Andy and big slicks involvement in the charity set up. As I understood it Davey was the head of the charity and organised the events. In the chain of command(for want of a better phrase) does Davey report to the other two guys or do they report to Davey?


regards

Bobby,

Andy is Chairman of Game For Life, Tony is a Trustee for Game For Life, Davey is CEO for Game For Life, and Davey is answerable to both Andy and Tony.

Ang

cheers Ang

Game for Life Enterprises Ltd, or Game for Life, the Registered Charity?

Ange,

When you and Davey were in Las Vegas at last year's WSOP was that trip paid for entirely or in part by P4C or was it purely a holiday and paid for by yourselves?

 ;popcorn; ;popcorn;

So who fulfills the role of finance director? I can't imagine this would be Davey as that wouldn't be a great corporate structure, chief exec and finance are normally separate entities.
Thanks

Tracey

I believe it to be correct for both.

Ang

That was paid for by ourselves as a birthday present for me from Davey, and also to attend Joe Beevers wedding.

TBH I think your question was bang out of order, I don't question you where you go for holidays.

Ang

Thanks

Bang out of order, downright nasty, and post should be removed!!


EDIT:  Nah leave it there!! 

I havnt really posted on these threads but have been reading them throughout.
I think the sooner the full accounts are available for all to see the better.
Once these figures are available everyone will have a chance to make up there own minds as wether to support p4c in the future.

i went to Scarboro on holiday this year      :D

Fair enough to ask as it was Poker related .

If P4C and G4L were a little more transparrent such question need not be asked.
You bring it upon yourselfs IMHO for what it's worth.

Regards

M

Not at all, its a legitimate question. I remember Davey saying something along the lines of "it wont be much of a holiday as i have some P4C business to do out here."

I don't see anything wrong with asking and frankly the way you are trying to label me and other people on this thread as being nasty in all this takes the piss. I think its you who looks daft telling everyone to remove posts left right and centre. I'm not baiting you in any way, I'm just fed up with your lack of ability to enable a sensible discussion of the facts to take place without chucking your toys out of the pram whenever you see something you don't like.

Davey did have a couple of meetings out there which I didn't mind, it meant I could have sometime to myself which is very rare with having 4 children, and it was our first holiday away from the children. The main reason for us going was for Joe and Claires wedding.

Trace probably read the post as I did, and I took it as an intrusion into my private life, which frankly is no one elses business but my own.

Ang

Are you forgetting i tagged along? lol. :D

Is now the right time to post the video of Davey dancing on Freemont street?

How about the one of you dancing in the Bellagio with Rob?? rotflmfao rotflmfao

Sssh we never speak of that video.

Fun times.

flushy.......................dancing


not 2 words you would normally associate with each other

Sorry - I've been working so I've only just got back on to this thread. I'm not sure if this has been answered and I've missed it - if so I'm sorry - if not can anyone help with the above?
Thanks

Tracey

I dont think its an issue. If you look at any Ltd company of a similar size to G4L they will not have a separate CEO to Finance.

Oh it's the 'What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas' ??

Ang

I'm still interested in who is the financial director.

I dont think they will have one. They have a Chairman of G4L (who I would guess is the director in terms of companies house for the enterprise company), a CEO of P4C (which wouldnt warrent having a finance director) and then they have trustees...

I know your thinking that a finance director would be needed to control the expenses but in all honesty it just wouldnt be needed. Once they have better control (recording and monitoring) they will be fine how they are set up. I say 'will', however it should probably be 'would have'....

Ok - so who takes responsibility for the financial decisions? (Probably a better question!  :) )

The CEO who is reportable to the Board (trustees and chairman). He would have full authority and accountability. I'm guessing but it seems logical to prevent having to make the whole thing even more ineffective.

Ok - thanks for that - but as you're not sure hopefully someone from the charity will be able to answer.
Thanks anyway
Tracey

Blimey - i know how to shut a thread up!! Nothing for hours on this!!!

It is if it involves 2 drunk blokes doing the robot.....

Has Andy been able to get onto the internet yet?

Maybe he's gone on holiday to Vegas?

You don't holiday in vegas you go to work mate. For holidays you should try caribbean etc (unless there is a tourney on then it classes as work again :) )

Any luck with Andy's internet yet?

I know how he feels if it isn't back on. Been waiting for over 2 bloody weeks for the man to come round to fix my sky dish.

Very frustrating.

i think its about time he sorted out a new ISP. The customer service he is getting on his current one obviously isn't up to much.

I'm awaiting the next P4A (poker 4 andy) event where 23% of every buyin goes towards a new broadband connection and new PC.

I bet I know what's happened.

I reckon BT were due to reconnect Andy today, but they cried off because of the bloody snow.

Typical.

Have you got too much time on your hands?? :D

Probably.

It's just that every time I think of this thread I get pretty annoyed.

I went to three P4C events and donated a minimum of £200. I am not suggesting anything untoward, it's just I wish I had given it to a different "charity".

For some reason I thought that all the figures got published in the end?

The outcome being that a fair chunk of money was being spent on expenses etc. meaning that the charities were only getting a fairly low percentage of the money collected from players at events.

The consensus was that this was far too low (and not transparent during the events) and so everything wound down.

it did untill you posted right now ::)

The misunderstanding that a lot of people made stemmed from the % figure that was quoted as ended up going to good causes (~30% iirc)

This was derived from the end of year (or whatever period) accounts. Their expenses were mostly fixed costs. A salary, equipment, petrol, buffets etc. Once these were covered, all the money collected went to charitable causes.
It wasn't a case of they had this 30% figure in mind from the beginning, and everytime someone donated £100 they decide how to spend £70 and send £30 on to do some good.

The problem was the expenses were too large for the scale of the charity. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that in that form, it probably shouldn't have existed in the first place.

For example, the charity footing the bill for travel and accomodation for the people who were organising and running a tournament is a pretty big scale thing. The tournaments didn't attract large numbers of people to justify this, and some of these events actually lost the charity money, or made them very little.

Charity poker tournaments go on today up and down the country on a smaller scale and many of them are very successful. The P4C model just wasn't meant to work.

One of the events I attended had Thomas Kremser as TD.

I understand, he was given pay (and not £5 per hour!!!) and expenses (not the weekend at the local Travellodge) for the weekend.

Thomas went down massively in my estimation for all this.

If you can't do something for free for charity, don't do it imo.

come on, bob hope desereved a couple of quid in his pocket

http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=109667

Ugh.

The world gets sicker by the day.

jeez,

the forums been happy vibe the past few days which you'd been moaning about  previously, then turn up and post on the one thread that's a bit of a downer about how sick the world is ::)

Fuddruckers.

Perhaps his fees/expenses had been covered by the event sponsor?  I do agree that people should "volunteer" their time for this sort of thing though.

I think The Tank explained the situation pretty well - there were certain big events which i'm sure raised a large amount of money for charity, but unfortunately certain ones (especially towards the end) were poorly attended and therefore struggled with running costs and adversely affected the overall figures for ratio of money taken to money donated.