blonde poker forum

Just came upon this while browsing another forum.  It appears that from January onwards that Grosvenor casinos will no longer be charging a registration fee but will instead be charging a "Session" fee according to the scale below:

Upto £5 entry = £2 Charge
£6 - £15 entry = £3
£16 - £50     = £5
£51 - £100   = £10
£101 - £1000 = 10% capped at £50
£1000 and above = 5% no cap

Can anyone confirm if this is true ?  £5 entry for a £20 rebuy seems very steep.

Yes it is true

 ;woohoo;

I've moved this onto the main board from Live Poker so that more people are likely to see it.  I'm sure no-one is going to be too happy about it (I believe these are the charges that Dik9 has been forewarning of previously).

Sheriff

strangely, there's been no advance notice of this in my local Grosvenor!


not going to be popular

James (sofa king) started a thread about it

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=18225.0

i told flushy but he was a non beliver lol

yeah but what you said appears to be incorrect, it says £1000+£50 on the events you claimed were £1000+£100

Seems to me like hardly any of them will be 10%

No, they opted for 40% with some of them!

I am surprised at the surprise really.
From a business perspective they are still offering a loss leader. I don't see how any operation can make money providing tables, chips, dealers, etc. at these cost limits.
Never see anyone moan about the 20% upfront and 10% from the prizepool charges in some US casinos. 

the swimming with devilfish book gives the impression that most of the prize money gets given back at the roulette table.

Not just steep, unbeatable in the long run.

Unless you have more than a 25% edge on the field.
lol.

I couldn't disagree more.

It's not 25% on the pool, its 25% on the first buyin. Average spend on a £20 rebuy is easily over £50, lets say £60, £60+5 seems like a good deal to me.

Thats true, and lessens the effect but on FO's its true.

Good thing most comps are rebuys then!

I want to play Tournament Poker in Venues where....

It's clean, & warm.

There is free tea, coffee, soft drinks, bikkies & sarnies.

The tables, chairs, chips & cards are half-decent.

The sort of Events I enjoy playing are facilitated, and they (The Venues) are open to well-intended suggestions from the players.

Well-trained House Dealers are provided.

A "controlled playing environment" is provided, including a comptent Card Room Manager who affords players the protection & implementation of the Rules.

I get an enjoyable Evening's fun & entertainment in reasonably convivial company & relaxing surroundings.

To pay a Registration Fee to ensure I get all that seems most reasonable to me.

A point made perfectly, we have been very lucky to have such cheap fee's for a long time.

When this debated first started a while back when the rules changed there was a question of would you pay i think £5 juice on a £10 rebuy, i still say yes as the service provided is easily worth more than £5.

play online then     :D

Behave, Boo.

To be fair, most Venues do indeed look after us pretty well, imo.

Could someone explain the difference between a registration fee and a session fee please.

No idea snoops, sounds like semantics to me.

When you pay a 'session' fee in cash games, you pay by the hour. I hope they aren't considering a similar scheme (ie. you pay every 3 hours) in the tournaments too.

SESSION FEES are a cash game terminology

REG FEES a tourney terminology

thus far in the UK this has been the case

however Session Fees, if applied to a torurnament, allow the venue to charge by time, eg by the hour, in tournaments

You forgot to mention Muzak and the odd stray Drifter.

Crapola, £3 juic for my weekly £10 freeout seems absurd. They make shitloads having 100+ more peeps there on an otherwise quiet night.

Defo think twice if it goes upto this level out of principle.

so are the rates given in the opening post going to be hourly fees?!

These session fees are being charged because the casino's can now legally charge what they want. They have run at a loss for such a long time that it seems fair that they should now be able to charge more, which can only be in players intrest. The more revenue the casino make the more money they can invest back into the game and equipment/ staff. These charges will only be a one off ( not charged hourly). If you try playing any specialist past time such as snooker would you grumble at paying £3 for 8 hrs useage of equipment, staff free food/ drink. i think it is a very fair charge.

1 off fee's

They can charge for entry to the cardroom as well i believe.






Yeah £3 for a whole nights service, how dare they!

Welcome to blonde.

I agree with what you say, in the grand scheme of things, it would be a fair price, especially when many don't play the 'house games'.

However, when these fees are implemented then surely the standard of service will have to increase too...

ps. I'm not sure casinos are running at a loss though.

Welcome to blonde, Sir, & the tone of your Post suggests a vested interest, & I think you may be in for a bit of grief for your views!

However, largely speaking, I agree with you.

"they have run at a loss for such a long time" is, I suspect, badly worded - you really mean that Poker Tournaments & Fessies have been run at a loss - which they obviously have, if we exclude indirect benefits. (Increased number of players playing the House Games).

Free drinks and the use of tables, chips, cards a final table dealer etc are not enough?

the cardroom side of the casino runs at a loss for most events when you think every member of staff is costing £85 per night even for a £20 rebuy thats say 3 staff =£255, free teas / food and  equipment. To break even you need 100 runners. what money could the casino make if they filled the cardrooms with roulette tables or slots?

The point of running poker tournaments is to fill the casino with people who otherwise wouldnt be there, they more than make their money back from the pit games, alcoholic drinks etc.

As for filling the casino with tables/slots - they are rarely full as it is, what does adding more do?

Nothing.

The point is the casinos are adding 300-500 quid to their pockets while making freezeouts completely unbeatable in the long run except by a very small few.

A poker room will never turn a profit - its benefits to the casino are traffic it brings into the pit and more money from drinks sales.

Poker was almost dead in vegas with many casinos having shut down their card rooms pre-poker boom.

Sigh.

Check out a casino in London on a Friday or Saturday night and tell me it isn't full!

The problem it appears to me is that most of the 'new breed' of players, the ones pushing up the numbers, are not the same people who go and play table games, they come for the poker and thats it. So despite the increase in runners the increase in gaming is not proportionate.

If it's a one off fee, and you are charged the fee upon registering, then why isn't a 'registration fee' rather than a session fee.

I don't understand, surely all they are doing is increasing the reg fee.

The difference beetween reg fee and session fee is just the legal way of being able to charge over 10% . You will only be charges 1 fee for each comp. The session fee will just replace reg fee.

do you think Grosvenor/ blue square would have added £180,000 to the Gukpt tour next year without the extra money coming in?

Yes.


P.S. You seem to know a fair bit about the business of Grosvenor!

i am a regular at grosvenors but when i speak about the upcoming changes it concerns all cardroom not just grosvenor and i was at the launch of the gukpt at the vic just being nosey. 

AH cool.

Yeah i think these changes had any impact on the GUKPT, that was always going to happen with added money, such is the wish of Jon Raab to do something for the players.

There it is - "Session Fees" & "Registration" is just semantics, to appease the GC.

Tournament Pokerists have never been as well looked after as they will be in 2007.

Grosvenor, Gala, APAT, & I'm sure others all have Value-added Series, & I think that's tremendous progress, & I'm delighted. Just wish I was a little younger!

And the internet......added value every night....

Exactly, Poker Added Value everywhere! And still there will be those who are not happy. Sheesh, in my day, we'd have shot 'em....

Who paid for the bullets?

Come on Acid, don't be tight, £3's not much.

They must struggle to not lose money charging £1 juice on it at the moment, with the poker manager, valets, dealers for final tables' etc. wages to pay, and particular in the one we go to, as hardly any of the players bother with the table games.

Just get more free drinks. If you get 4 or 5 cokes, its worth loads more than £3 anyway.

The point is, whether they are charging £1 juice for a small buy-in, or £100 for a big buy-in, their outlay is virtually the same.

i disagree red when you think of a small 3 staff £300 a big comp (festival) 20 dealers £2000 staff from outside casinos  +(all need hotels, travel, overtime) we all love the big games but we have to accept the bigger charges.

Play a £50 comp at Grosvenor Walsall, & they give you a Free Buffet - a FULL MEAL jobbie. That alone must be worth more than the Reg Fee.

OK it's better value when we play a £50 comp than when we play a £500 comp, but on balance, I think they look after us reasonably well, value-wise.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying the juce at the moment is too much for the bigger buy-ins. I'm saying the smaller buy-ins lose money.

who cares about £5.. if you are gonna complain about such a pitiful sum of money, you should play a different game.

IMHO there is no such thing as a pitiful sum of money, it's all relative. but then perhaps you have to have known real poverty to understand that.

If I see 1p lying in the street, I still have to pick it up.

ok, I guess it came out wrong. £5 or £10 or £20 for a game of poker is dirt cheap. Poeple complaining about such things are getting bothered about the wrong things

I have had a PM suggesting I am somehow "in bed" with Grosvenor.

Err.....NO, I'm not! I have no commercial tie with them whatsoever. But I DO realise that without Grosvenor, in terms of UK Tournament Poker, the scene would be much poorer.

I think we should be grateful to them, & I am not ashamed or embarrassed to say so. They don't do it for Charity, I know, but they do it, & that'll do me, its given me and many others a tremendous amount of fun at a reasonable cost (in terms of Reg Fees).

i have read that to be able to charge more than 10% and a reg fee they have to make it s session fee and for a session fee you are entitled to a dealer dealt table

the the size of comps i play i am willing to pay a couple of quid extra if i am assured of a dealer dealt comp

I am afraid that this point is wrong the only guideline set out by the gaming board is that a dealer and experienced supervisor must be supplied for the final table only.

well if thats the case its going to lead to more clubs along the lines of gutshot and cincin setting up

if i am paying £5 session fee then i would want a dealer if not i will vote with my wheels

That's it Iron, you put your wheels down.

Nail/head.

Casinos traditionally didn't mind making a loss on poker as it was used as a loss leader to get extra punters through the door - punters who would be only too glad to wander over to the table games once they'd had a few drinks inside them.

Nowadays, there is an ever increasing amount of new players who have no interest in table games whatsoever. With the current charge restrictions, casinos are not able to make any money from these people, who pay their £3 reg fee and then help themselves to the free drinks all night before going home.

These new charges are simply the casinos trying to make the poker pay for itself.

I confess to never having spent a bean on Table Games in any Grosvenor since I began playing Poker.... So yes, Andrew has a point there!

I think everyone is missing the point entirely here.

If 0 people turn up at the casino/cardroom then the casino will make a loss  /  overheads, staff etc

If 10 people turn up and only 1 person plays they make money from food/alchahol etc but the one person may win so they make a loss, he may lose 10k in which case it was worth it, that is the only gamble a casino takes.

100 play a card tourny only 10 may play the house games, 50 may have a beer or two, 25 may have a sit down meal, 15 may play fruit machines, 20 may bring guests (and those guests will be doing something whilst the poker is on.

The Casino would if they could grab people off the street and give them a free £10 chip, the object is to get them in to have a shot at something, If a poker comp generates £10k that is £10k in the casino that they have a shot at.

The staffing issue is bllx, as how many staff as soon as tables are broke are dragged back into the pit? £85 for every cardroom staff? that must be London!!

As far as I can see, the gaming act hasn't changed, but some smart alec as studied the gaming act and found that a session fee can be charged.

" There is also provision under the Gaming Clubs (Hours and Charges) Regulations 1984 for a casino to charge an hourly rate for the use of the facilities. This could be in addition to any fixed charge. There is no mention of a maximum hourly amount in the Act."

This does not just refer to poker btw!! But the cardroom is where it is/will be implemented.

A £500 + £50 reg fee adds £500 in reg fee to the house as it is, take out the so called £85 for dealer and a cumulative fee of £15 for other costs i.e. TD runner leccy etc the house is in £400 profit per table and they want to charge you more? If you are happy with this then no problems, also if you would like to donate some extra dollars to my Blonde account please feel free :)up

This is without the money recouped from cash session fees, which some days run at £1500 + total @ £5 per hour in a well known club.

Or someone posts the info on forums for them to see ;hide;

 ;ashamed;

Damage looks to be already done Craig :(

Merry Christmas all BTW!!

Merry Xmas
You had warned of this for quite some time now.

As soon as i found out about Leicesters plans 4 months ago.

Wasn't me lol

I had already known the plans and knew it was to be gradually implemented, as I know that once this charge is accepted another may be put on.

Well, it's each to their own. Personally, I don't care how much money the Casinos make, not at all. So long as they provide me, at a reasonable price, with the criteria I set out on Page 2 of this thread, they (the Casinos) can make as much money as they like! I don't mind paying a fair & reasonable fee to get what I want. If I dont "pay my way" I'd worry that the Casino would put the space to more profitable use. As long as they earn a few bob out of poker, they'll continue to cater for us. If they don't earn out of poker, they will stop laying it on. It's that simple.

It's added money that I'm keen to see, & it's terrific to see the birth of the trend at Live Venues, whereby Online Rooms - at one time the new kid on the block remember - now sticking a few bob in the kitty for the "Live Boys".

The future for Live Tournament Poker has never looked better, & I'm delighted to be part of it, 2007 is going to be mega, with more Tourneys, variety, Fessies, better structures, clocks, & more added money than ever before.

If only I were a shade younger!

I for one dont mind the little extra, if the standard of service is maintained.
I feel the will be lots of changes throughout the card rooms, I just hope they get with the times on certain issues ,i.e allowing alternates and not having to be present when the tourny starts. Just be blinded off.

Also I really welcome the day they allow tipping the staff, then the turnover of staff wouldnt be so high,more pride in their work and  it would be a really sort- after industry to work in.

ps never believe casinos dont need cardrooms, just ask the rainbow. biggest bomb dropped since Hiroshima

Its thin edge of the wedge, first this then what else? what other service can charge you 300% more from one day to another, for the same thing?

Your correct dik9 they have poker in to fill the place and generate revenue from that.

Wether I am willing to pay £3 for a £10 freezout weekly is not the point.

?????????

They already earn?? Poker was fine even up to the start of reg fees, It was +EV to have the cardroom to benefit the casino.

I understand that casinos should make money, it is their business, but the casino's at the mo have the monopoly and can charge whatever they want as long as they know the other casinos will eventually charge it. The new "session fee" is a joke!

If everyone was charged an entrance fee on entry to casino, then thats fair, but this a liberty that is being taken with poker players.

It is worsened by the fact high profile players seem to be ok with it, it is the lower end of the scale that will suffer.

Is this APAts stance on the situation or just a personal point of view?

True, Craig.

Most of the "issues" you mention, are, to be fair, required by the GC, rather than the Venues. 

These are, obviously, my personal views. APAT's views on these issues will be formulated by it's Members.

Yes, sorry , I meant the GC, to come out the dark ages not casinos.

Agree with every word Craig. And yes, WE need THEM, & THEY need US. How it should be.

grosvenor need to take a leaf out of napoleons book they dont charge any rake wahoooOO!!! merry christmas!!!

But you can smoke at the table......! It's all checks & balances, eh?

i think it will be reduced back down within a month or so! bad move grovesnor!

I was surprised on my trip up to Newcastle that on the way back to my hotel, that the taxi driver stated that none of the casinos in Newcastke are actually making any money. However, I have no further information to verify whether that is true or not.

Personally, I don't mind paying a registration fee, as long as it's a reasonable amount, in proportion with the tournament buy-in. The casinos host tournaments to earn money, either directly, or indirectly through house games, food, drink, etc. If they don't make a profit, they go bust, which reduces the number of venues I can play at.

Agreed, it's that simple. We want & need the Casinos to want & need US, & they'll only do that if they earn an acceptable return on poker. If the Casinos get out of line, they know the poker punters will naff off & play online instead. The perfect "push-pull" balance.

i dont mind charges for a good service but if they dont supply dealers then i am not getting the service i want and thus i wont pay the charges

Quite right too.

The Broadway is still the best.

Well yes, it's good, VERY good, but to say it's "the best" is subjective.

Stunningly good, though.

this friday i am going to play in a local £15 double shootout there is no dealers everyone takes there turn but there is no charge, if the casino is not supplying dealers i dont see why they charge we are not charged for sitting and drinking in a bar which is in ensence what we are doing exepct we are playing a few cards amongst ourselves

Does the bar give out free food and drink?

i am talking about the bar in the casino

Poker players get very disgruntled very quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if Walsall lose a few players to the Broadway.

i heard that broadways were going to start adding a reg fee on all comps this year

Broadway only started charging reg fee since Oct 2006
Its 10% on all comps to a maximum of £25
We don't have customer dealt games and never will, Broadway is here to provide a service and thats what we do best.
Alongside the best dealers , we also have the hardest working and prettiest waitresses.

the reason why i like playing andbroadways and why i dont mind paying for the service

I can certainly vouch for the last point.

There you go - "we are here to provide a service". I, for one, am more than happy to pay for the service, especially if it's a good service.

I don't want something for nothing, & by paying for my "service" (dealers, waitresses, free drinks, sarnies, even buffets at many, including The Broadway, & Grosvenor Walsall) it gives us the right to give them a little poke in the ribs when things are not quite right. If it's free, we have no right to complain. In my opinion, that is.

sorry to add to such an old thread.  I've just been looking through the Vic schedule and noticed that some of the £50 comps are £5 'entry stake and entry fee' and some are £10.  Just wondered if anyone knows why there is a difference?  Are the £5 self dealt perhaps?

No need to apologise Claw!

I don't really know the answer Claw, but someone will, I'm sure.

But I know this. (wholly unrelated to your question, my apologies). If a venue charges no juice on the comp, & no Entry or Session Fee, it removes my right to complain when the service is poor, or there are no dealers, or no free drinks, bikkies  or sarnies.

But if they charge me a Reg Fee, and/or a Sesion Fee, then I have a right to expect decent Service, Dealers, comfy chairs & good Customer Care. Personally, I'd rather pay for the Service, as that means if I don't get looked after, I can complain, or take my custom elsewhere. I really don't want the Venues to give me something for nothing, as I don't wish to be beholden to anyone.

But many think the venues should not charge, & they are perfectly entitled to that view. It's really quite wonderful that we all think differently on these things.

Re: getting value for money from a venue, at the £5 + £2 self-dealt tournie at Walsall yesterday [1] I misdealt to the player in the ten seat which rather ruined her KK.

A little later after fluffing a riffle she asked how long I'd worked here and did I think I needed more training  ;D





[1] 8 tables, 200 rebuys, only 1 floorman and 1 waitress who didn't reach our table before the first break.

Well then you must & should complain. That's the beauty of being charged, it gves you that right!

I did.

Apparently I was paying £2 to deal myself to pay for the WSOP seats they offer, the ipods they give away in the leagues and all the other wonderful promotions.