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Benitez recently called Everton "a small club". But what makes a club big?

IMO it's trophies/history, fan base, disposal income, in that order.

A combination of the above. I feel that being successful for more than one decade is important.

Benitez was an idiot saying that. Everton are a small club compared to the big 4, but compared to the other 88 teams in England they are pretty big!

When was the last time Liverpool went to Old Trafford and play an attacking game? 1990 maybe ;)

can i just add i believe everton were the 7th or 8th richest footy clubs in the world in 2006!

edit* i belive they were actually 17th!! o well!

He didn't say "Everton are small". It was more like "small teams come here to frustrate us and defend".

Moyes has used "we have a small squad", "we dont have their resources", " we cant compete financially with them", etc etc etc for 4 years now! You cant have both ways! They're small club when it suits them!

In response to your last line, how about last season when we lost 1-0?

Back to the point of the thread why is more than one decade important? Some clubs cant even manage that!

Look at Chelsea. How can they be classed as a bigger club than Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal etc...

Who do you think are the 10 biggest clubs in England?

Chelsea are a tough one.

Money galore but none of it made in profit.

Back to back premiership titles after being a 5th to 10th club since forever.

Stadium full every week when they were getting 12,000 back in the eighties.

Very hard to judge.

This is for 2004-2005 season
1(2) Real Madrid £186.2m
2(1) Man Utd £166.4m
3(3) AC Milan £158m
4(5) Juventus £154.9m
5(4) Chelsea £149.1m
6(7) Barcelona £140.4m
7(9) Bayern Munich £128m
8(10) Liverpool £122.4m
9(8) Inter Milan £119.7m
10(6) Arsenal £115.7m
11(12) Roma £89m
12(11) Newcastle £87.1m
13(14) Spurs £70.6m
14(17) Schalke £65.8m
15(-) Lyon £62.7m
16(13) Celtic £62.6m
17(16) Man City £60.9m
18(-) Everton £60m
19(-) Valencia £57.2m
20(15) Lazio £56.1m

That is just turnover. Doesn't include history, trophies won, fee paying members/subscribers, ground capacity, season ticket holders/waiting list...etc

Chelsea bigger than Barcelona!

I thought Chelsea made a loss last season?

Oasis weren't very big in the 80s either.

I think you've got to give it to Chelsea at some point.

Very true. Only one other team has back-to-back premiership titles.

But as a big club how do you judge where they stand vs the others?

They did £83.3million

If Abramovich bought Tottenham instead and we won b2b EPL titles - would we be bigger than Arsenal, Liverpool?

No, I dont think Chelsea are now, but at what point do they become bigger?

Define who are bigger out of say Spurs and Newcastle? Or Arsenal and Liverpool?

Surely the only way to find the biggest club is to judge it like a franchise in american football. Surely the biggest has to come down to the turnover. This shows which one makes the most from ticket sales, tv rights, merchandising, etc. It cannot be put down to wins, titles and so on whcih must be said to go hand in hand with increased profits. You will not see a successful team that consistently wins titles that isnt one of the richest in the world.

Liverpool dominated the world for 3 decades, they were the biggest club up untill 1990's

Newcastle are like west ham in my eyes.

Or would you judge a clubs size by how much it's name has penetrated and registers in mainstream society.

Go round shopping centres up and down the country, asking teenage girls to name 5 premiership sides.

History is a factor, but I think often weighted too heavily in these evaluations.

Benfica? Massive history and European titles but dont turnover much. Saying they aren't as big as say Valencia or Newcastle becuase of their inferior turnover is harsh.

IMO Benfica and Porto are like Celtic and Rangers in stature.

The answer is so debatable and have to take in so many factorials that there can be no definative answer! I think its fair to say that liverpool has been the biggest club over the 30 year period but cannot say that it now stil holds that position. Man U are seen to be the most commercially successfully and chelsea the most successfull in titles and cups in recent years. No 1 team can be put on the podium!

Your right Baron. It cant be based on turnover alone. It is harsh to eliminate certain teams due to lesser turnover

But the view of teenage girls who aren't really part of the typical football fan demograph surely cant be considered a realistic measuring system over a club's history?

I agree with this.

I'm interested to hear people's views on it though.

You asked for bigness though

Todays society likens big to fame. You'd probably be better going round the world, than round this country.

True. Popular culture (such as the clubs with the best looking WAGs, the players having the best weddings etc) will probably dictate who gets mentioned more though.

I have no problem taking a clipboard to Japan if anyone wants to pay my airfare.

1 question, how can you "turnover a loss" turnover is just the money you have coming in.

I would think this works both ways though?
Will the best looking WAGs not gravitate to the bigger clubs.

Better get off the WAGs now I supppose, Nem will be blowing a gasket.

Of course, why else would LA Galaxy sign Beckham up for 250m dollars. I know he has the skills but he is worth so much more to them off the pitch. It will be the downfall of football in the end. Give it 3 -5 years and there will be an even bigger gap between the top 5 premiership gants and the rest of the teams.  

Chelsea definately made a loss last year so that table wasn't turnover.

eh?

Edited.

The table I put in is of total club income. It is for the 2004-2005 season not 2005-2006 season so would not obviously include the 83 million chelsea deficit of last year

Chelsea have operated at a loss for the last two years I think. Nemesis will know more than I will though.

this is extrated from same article i lifted the table from.
"As a consequence, Chelsea came fifth in the table with income of £149m despite making a record £140m loss last season"

so is this
"The Deloitte review does not include the cost of transfer fees or player wages and concentrates solely on day-to-day income from football business such as ticket sales, merchandising and broadcast revenues"

 

Back to the Spurs-Newcastle argument Nem, with the factors mentioned above, why is Spurs bigger than Newcastle?

Because Nem supports Spurs.

Full of useful info as ever Flushy!

Fan Base

Stadium

Success

History


Tis why Leeds and Forest are still big clubs, even though the success has gone. The other 3 factors remain.

I saw a survey where we were still the 7th best supported club in the country despite being bottom of the Championship.

In my opinion, Barceolna are the worlds biggest club.

Tottenham Hotspur have been winning trophies consistently for the last 50 years. We have also only spent one season out of the top division in the last 50 years.

Newcastle have consistently been shite over the last 50 years. They were a yo-yo club before 1993 and in the 80's their average attendance was 12,000. They have most probably spent as much time out of the top division than in it in the last 50 years. They also haven't won a major trophy in 40 years!

I too think that Barcelona are the worlds biggest club.

IMO England 10 Biggest Clubs:

1: Man United

2: Liverpool

3: Arsenal

big gap

4: Tottenham Hotspur

5: Everton

6: Chelsea

7: Aston Villa

8: Newcastle

9: Leeds

10 Manchester City

Buy a 7 pack and leave it on a radiator..............

I remember someone telling me Leeds had 300,000 applications for tickets for last seasons playoff final.

Nems top ten looks about right.

I think the notion of a 'big club' is something which can't really be tied down to things like turnover, fan base etc - it's a less tangible thing.

The best way I can describe it is this. You're a supporter of a small club that somehow manages to qualify for Europe. As you listen to the draw on the radio, your team's name is pulled out of the hat. As you hear who your team's opponents are, the more you go 'Ooooooh', the bigger the team is.

This is a really interesting debate. i think that Man utd are the biggest club in england. They have pretty much everything at the moment. ie massive ground, massive fan base, recent domestic dominance etc etc etc.

Alot of other clubs are close like arsenal, liverpool.

there are always arguments as to who is a big club some say arsenal are not as they have never won the European cup/ champions league. Liverpool have not won a league title for 17 years.

I agree pretty much with Nemesis top 10 although its clubs like newcastle that I'm not sure if they should be. it was only before Keegan took charge about 12 years ago that they were getting 12,000 crowds, compare that to Leeds now who are in a similar situation to what newcastle were pre Keegan and they get far more. That what really pisses me off when i watch newcastle on TV and commentatores say things like "these fans deserve success" why do they?? whey do they deserve it more than Man city, Villa, or even that Shiite from N17?




PS although i do agree recently NUFC have become bigger before all you goerdies bite my head off  ;hide;

Leeds aren't even the 7th best supported club in the Championship...

Average Attendance Rankings
 Team Pld Total Highest Average Capacity  Pct
1 Sunderland (7) 16 469573 40116 29348 48300  60.7%
2 Derby County (1) 15 372111 31920 24807 33597  73.8%
3 Norwich City (16) 16 392710 25433 24544 25500  96.2%
4 Sheffield Wednesday (13) 16 382036 29103 23877 39859  59.9%
5 Southampton (5) 16 365459 30548 22841 32551  70.1%
6 Ipswich Town (14) 15 336475 28355 22432 30311  74.0%
7 Leicester City (18) 15 331857 30457 22124 32500  68.0%
8 Birmingham City (4) 14 304679 29431 21763 30009  72.5%
9 West Bromwich Albion (3) 15 303890 26606 20259 28003  72.3%
10 Coventry City (17) 15 298479 27212 19899 23633  84.2%
11 Wolverhampton Wndrs (10) 16 317141 27203 19821 29400  67.4%
12 Leeds United (24) 15 292589 23037 19506 40204  48.5%
13 Hull City (22) 16 297213 25512 18576 25404  73.1%
14 Crystal Palace (12) 16 260601 20159 16288 26400  61.6%
15 Stoke City (8) 16 259206 23017 16200 28384  57.0%
16 Cardiff City (6) 16 250271 20109 15642 21432  72.9%
17 Preston North End (2) 15 215461 19603 14364 20600  69.7%
18 Plymouth Argyle (11) 15 191278 17088 12752 20922  60.9%
19 Burnley (15) 14 174082 15061 12434 22546  55.1%
20 Queens Park Rangers (19) 16 198087 14793 12380 19148  64.6%
21 Barnsley (21) 15 176720 21253 11781 23186  50.8%
22 Southend United (23) 15 148344 11415 9890 12392  79.8%
23 Luton Town (20) 15 126777 10260 8452 9975  84.7%
24 Colchester United (9) 16 86054 6065 5378 7556  71.1%

Home: http://itv.stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/D1/attend.html

Many many factors to why Leeds fans have stopped watching,

Having one of the most expensive ticket prices for any football team in the country is one (£37 to watch a home game this season)  I can go watch a premeirship game within 45mins for half the price.

Having the worse record in the league.

People simply not supporting Leeds becasue of Master Bates attitude to the city and how he treats the fans.

Stopping most of the free tickets the Club gave to under privalaged groups around the city.

Doubling the cost of going to watch them if you were an OAP season ticket holder.

etc. etc. etc.

Maybe when he realises that filling up the stadium is important things will turn around.

You can quote facts all you like but for clubs in the championship Leeds at home is most probs the biggest game of the year for them.   

As it will be for League One clubs next season...

Yep will be fun going to watch Leeds and standing up at these small grounds :)

I'd consider Real Madrid a 'bigger' club than Barca. 

Someone needs to create an equation that determines big-ness.  It would have several co-efficients related to history, success, recent success, fan-base, money, etc.

Someone mentioned Japan (Tank I think) and ss an interesting aside, I lived in Japan just under 10 years ago.  At the time the only two clubs that Joe Public-san knew of from England were Liverpool and Man U. 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this one too.  Go down the list of teams in the division and most will have a 'bigger' game than the Leeds one (e.g. West Brom and Wolves, Leicester and Derby, Ipswich and Norwich, etc).  I also think you're misjudging just how many Leeds supporters travel away this season.  The away end for the Oakwell game had a lot of empty space in it, and that was a trip of less than 20 miles.

You can see from the attendance figures below, just how big a difference a big away following can have to our attendance (the Leeds game is our 2nd highest so far this year and both are 'local derbies').  Of our remaining home games I'm fairly confident that Sunderland will bring a bigger following than Leeds, and there's a chance that Birmingham and Derby will do do so too.

H   Leeds United     FLC     W      3-2      16,943
H   Sheffield Wed     FLC     L      0-3        21,253

You can make all the excuses you want but the fact is that Leeds league position and current core support doesn't justify them as a big club at present.  They made the play-offs last season and were still only the 8th best supported team in the division, so on field performance doesn't make a huge difference.

I've little doubt that a return to the Premiership for them would result in close to full-houses once again, but the same applies to every club in the division.  Right now, like the rest of us, you're stuck outside the Premiership watching the 'big clubs' like Wigan and Reading get bigger and bigger each year from the Premiership money (and the gap will grow again from next season's new deal).  Right now, regardless of what history says, they have the money and reputation to attract players that Leeds (and even more so, Barnsley) can't attract, and that makes them bigger clubs than us.

Ultimately it all comes down to who you can get to play for you, and money/league status are the big factors.

Man Citeh managed to bring in huge crowds when they were down a couple of leagues.

However, Leeds' drop has been slightly more cataclysmic - and I can undestand why some fans are disillusioned.  My Dad has been a Leeds fan for over 70 years, so he's seen some ups and downs, but he's said that recent times have been amongst the worst for the club.

Real is much much bigger than barca without a doubt!

I don't want to get into a debate on facts and figures, how many travel here, there, thats missing the point.

My original thought wasn't saying Leeds coming into town was a big game based on 'actual attendence' I meant in terms of these small clubs wanting to still beat 'the mighty' Leeds, even though our current state (on and off the pitch) does not justify that tag.

However successful 90% of clubs in the Uk are they will never generate that buzz that Leeds can when they come to town.

"I've little doubt that a return to the Premiership for them would result in close to full-houses once again, but the same applies to every club in the division."

If Leeds went up (or if they had last season) they still woudn't get full houses, the fat bastard would have increased the prices coparable to those chelsea can charge. His logic remains charge double get 3/5 the crowd = a little more revenue = no atmosphere.

If its any consolation, our Chairman applies similar logic to the decisions he makes.  His recent 'sack the manager that got us promoted due to 'lack of ambition' and replace with inexperienced, cheapo academy manager from within' is a particular favourite at the moment.

I can't even make a valid case for a return to the 'good old days'.  The previous incumbent was Peter Ridsdale, the one before that asset-stripped us out of administration (whilst claiming to have 'saved the club') and the one's before that took us from Premiership to administration within 4 years!

 ;frustrated;

West Ham are also VERY well supported, even when they are outside the top flight.

Tough to say.

Barca have the biggest fan base world wide. Real have been much more successful. Both spend huge amounts of money.

I would probably say Real due to their success. There isn't much between them on every other stat.

I meant worldwide in terms of english clubs. Like scandanavia, Austrailia, Asia etc. where we still have decent fan bases.

Based on a survey i saw a few months ago, ill try and dig it out.

Sorry i didnt make myself clear.

I wouldnt say Barnsley are that small a club, but i was dissapointed with theyre attendances this year after going up, in comparison to what they used to get back in the premiership days, as is a Banrsley supporting friend of mine.

It's very hard to measure worldwide fan bases accurately. Even some of the most accurate football economists dont do it.

I'm not saying Leeds aren't 7th (they probably are) but more that how can we accurately measure fans in say, China for example?

Not totally surprised by it to be honest.  A lot of the 'soul' of the club was killed by going into administration and drove away a lot of supporters who will be hard to win back, especially when its being run now with a 'corner shop' mentality.

Promotion was a welcome bonus last season, albeit probably a season earlier than we were ready for.  The trick now is to stay up this season and that's a big ask.  This division is very different now to the one we got relegated from a few years ago.  Historically, its our 'natural level' (we've spent more years there than any other club, by a long way) but we've got a lot of progress to make before we can do anything other than battle against relegation at this level.

We're playing Colchester on Saturday, who are showing this season what can be achieved on limited resources.  It is possible to build a team cheaply who can be competitive at that level.  We just seem to be going completely the wrong way about it.

scoring 6 goals at the weekend 

WERE MASSIVE!!!!!

Interesting debate!
Surely the key to this is the support, realised and potential, that makes a big club.
Nottingham forest had a very succesful run but they are not a big club.
Whereas Leeds and Newcastle are huge clubs who have had relatively little success.

Despite disliking them personally Man United have to be the biggest club in the world. Anywhere I go in the world there are kids running around with Man U tops, likewise to a lesser degree Liverpool. In every department other than European honours they are bigger and better than both Barcelona and Real, Barcelona I think being the bigger of the two.

Chelsea are not even a big club in London compared to Arsenal and Spurs and are on a par with West Ham.

Celtic are the second biggest supported club in Britian (through the turnstiles) which surely makes them a huge club, however putting this in perspective of actual turnover, the bottom club in the Premiership will make more money from television rights than the whole of the SPL combined. This makes judgement by turnover a very difficult tool to use.

Lastly there are only really 4 clubs in the UK that have huge fan bases outside of there local areas and in fact have a thriving international support, those are Celtic, Man U , Liverpool and perhaps to a lesser degree Rangers. Clubs like Benfica and Porto for all their success do not have this.

I have enjoyed this thread, a difficult to quantify but interesting thread.

PS: Just for Nemisis........ Newcastle are a far bigger club the Spurs! ;scarymoment;

Good post.

I think I'm leaning towards the size of the following worldwide as well. (Although this is immensely hard to measure)

However I'd argue that Barcelona and Real are at least as well supported as Man U. I dont believe everything I read in the English press about them being the biggest in the world necessarily (although I'm sure they're up there).

Barca have a huge following in Latin America as well as large hispanic sections of North America. Many South American stars have come to Europe to these clubs and been followed for years back home.

It's very tough to really know who is big in Japan, China or Korea and what the level of "support" is. If I'm an everyday guy from Tokyo, buying a Beckham shirt because he's a "face" doesn't make me a Man U/Real Madrid/LA Galaxy fan IMO.

Knowing of a team (knowing their name) is not enough IMO.

Agree with nearly all your thoughts there Baron, Barcelona are huge I agree,everywhere I go, and I do go to some very strange places you see Barca paraphenalia, and thats the great thing about this thread, it's such a hard question to answer. But I do think, if you look at the stats, Man U's average crowd will be above both the Spanish giants. I  believe turnover for the last 3 years has seen them at the top of this particular league also, although I may be wrong and await correction from the Sherrif!

A big plus point for Celtic just now is Nakamura, which has raised the clubs profile to a different level in the Far East. Whether this is just a fad while the player is there (like the Beckhamites that you talked of) or leaves a lasting impression is yet to be seen. I am fortunate enough to be spending a couple of days in Seoul on my way back next week and will keep a particular eye out for what's in and what's not in Korea.

Bah even Leeds won the league more recently than Liverpool!

So have Blackburn.

So have Chelsea

At least we won the Peace Cup :'(

Liverpool are breaking into the US.  ;D

I'm not sure about average crowds as the Nou Camp and Bernabeau are both hyouge!

English clubs are held back slightly by the all seater grounds and the fact that we have 4 leagues though. Several teams in Germany regulary get 50,000 - 60,000 turn up!

In terms of turnover Man U were always top until a couple of years ago. I think Real have pipped them the last 2 seasons.

Bernabeau and camp nou are huge grounds but probably only have a sell out 7/8 times per season,  Old Trafford is a near sell out EVERY game

I consider Celtic one of Europe's big clubs pity there in the weakest league known to mankind.

Really?

I would have thought, much like here, when clubs are winning every trohpy in sight they are selling out. Although I've seen no evidence either way tbh.

Season to date figures:

Club                                  Average            % of Capacity
Barcelona                            85,452                   87.1
Man Utd                              75,786                   99.4
Real Madrid                          71,542                   95.3
Borussia Dortmund                70,461                   84.8
Bayern Munich                      68,400                   99.0
Celtic                                  57,287                    94.1

Every time i watch laliga on sky the ground always seems only 60/70% full (unless playing any of the big 4)

You better tell me where you got those figures from!

I'm not a sad statto - honest! ;tk;

In reply to this post i give you a big club.http://www.pimpthatsnack.com/project.php?projectID=104 (http://www.pimpthatsnack.com/project.php?projectID=104)

football365.com stats page - heaven!

The online bible.

hard point to argue but thought this was an interesting article.

http://www.sundayherald.com/sport/shfootball/display.var.1168459.0.mighty_mouse_league.php

 ;D

It's almost as if they're reading this thread.

The latest rich list - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6339941.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6339941.stm)

1) Real Madrid: £202m
2) Barcelona: £179.1m
3) Juventus: £173.7m
4) Man Utd: £167.8m
5) AC Milan: £165m
6) Chelsea: £152.8m
7) Inter Milan: £142.8m
8) Bayern Munich: £141.5m
9) Arsenal: £133m
10) Liverpool: £121.7m

Yes Eck it's a very good article, unlike most of the highly critical shite that comes from Traynor, Spiers, McNee et all.
i everyone realises how passionate the Scots are for there football,(hence Acidmouses barbed comment trying to get all the Jocks riled and inflamed, he knows its sooooo easy) with all that is good and bad that that brings.

One interesting statistic is my home town of Dundee where the population is 145,000 . The two senior teams in the town , one of which is in the 1st division and both of them having poor seasons have an average attendance of 11,000+.

 (In 2000-2001 both teams in the SPL and doing reasonably well this joint average attendance was 16,000).Take into consideration the 2000 people who watch junior football instead on a Saturday and the 1000+ fans that go through to watch the Old Firm and you can see what sort of percentage of population in the town regularly watch live football!

The same type of support per head of population in big cities like Sheffield and Bristol for example would relate to huge crowds watching Bristol City and Sheffield United and Leeds United would be playing in front of 100,000 every second week!!

Nice post for someone freezing their bollocks off!!

Acid we await your lucid reply!

and yer wife's still beating you at fantasy footie too!!    ;ifm;

Nearly home time though Eck start my journey back on Sunday (thank f¤ck)

The leagues shite, that was my original point, nowt has given me the impression otherwise.

She aint logged into the fantasy team for 6months I been playing both.

yeah, saw this on the news this morning - it made me chuckle!!

According to this report Manchester City were down as the 17th richest club in Europe and yet they are riddled with debt (recently over £20million was owed to just 2 people though the sale of SWP enabled some of that to be cleared) and dont even own the ground they play in.

Shite it may be, but we still seem to be able to beat the English clubs when we play them in Europe....

Turnover doesn't actually mean wealth!

It also says that it records turnovers but then lists several things such as transfers which arent taken into account?!?!?!?

Its like me doing the year end accounts for my company later this month but not including any imports or exports in the figures.....

pointless table if you ask me.

You mean Celtic and Rangers, no one else ever ever ever ever.

Makes no sense. Surely the best of the "shite" league wouldn't be able to rival the best of the super EPL?

We know we've not got a big league, but even then we are able to punch well above our weight. Read the Dundonian's post again, well one of those teams has been in a European final more recently than quite a few of the "big" teams being discussed on this thread.

I have agreed those two clubs do well for being in a crap league. Not sure what doesnt make sense in that.

The mighty celtic have a good record away from home in the champions league eh ? ? ?

Four evers!

Aberdeen winning the Cup Winners Cup in 1983.
Dundee Utd getting to the Semi finals of the European Cup in 1984
Hearts and Hibs are just pisch, fair point.

That's going to the early 80's, but four evers surely gives me licence to go back that far. Too many evers man!

Scotland are the 10th best league in Europe. Per capita, we rock.

I agree.

Real Madrid were a couple of hundred million in debt a few years back. They then sold their training ground and it's land for a few hundred million and the council built them a new state of the art one for free!

Wealth indeed!

Over a season (not a two legged tie) I doubt they would, but there's no way I can prove it of course.

There are 40 million reasons why they would, however the SPHell IS shite, there can no argument about that!

Real Madrid just signed a 7 year £791million tv deal.

Barcelona have a £83million per year tv deal

Chelsea only got £30million last year

If you dont do that then you would get massive fluctuations, the figures are showing the steady money streams.

A lot of interesting comments as well as the inane drivel we get used to from some of the unenlightened.
The question was, "what makes a big club?" it's a great arguement, the points I have tried to put across are that it is very difficult to quantify! Nobody surely argues that the quality of the SPL is far far below the EPL.

 Likewise under the restrictions that Scottish football has in comparison to the Premiership with regards to TV revenue even the blindest of Celtic and Rangers supporters know they would not be able to compete over a season with the top half in England.

Because Reading, Charlton, Middlesborough  etc recieve the equivelent of a small nations gross national product from television money does not make them big clubs.

A great trivia question. Which city in the UK has had two different clubs from that city reach the semi-finals of the European Cup?
No using 365.com please!

Dundee?

Bit of a give away really...lol!

London has had 3

Quite right Nemisis they have Spurs in the early years and Arsenal and Chelsea in the last few. On looking deeper Glasgow also have had two so that was a real pish trivia question....lol!

Apparently, being called 'Tottenham Hotspur' does not qualify you, according to some...

http://www.sportinglife.com/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/07/02/15/manual_161717.html

I wouldn't want him at Spurs anyway, as I don't rate him at all. We are not in the champions league, but what does he know about English football history, eh? ;) All he knows is how to do tricks and how to sit on the bench at Real Madrid.