blonde poker forum

I promise that I WILL get the hang of this limit stuff eventually.

I know the call on the turn was weak, should I just have decided that this was my tournament life & pushed all the way, or is it worth hanging in there as shorty, because a nice hand could easily treble you up.

The ave stack was about 2500 at this point.  I'd had one good hand in recent memory & a couple of stud hands that had started well, but ended up as nothing, so I'd lost a few chips overall.  150 into a 750 pot seemed a decent call with this hand.

I am really bad at being well under average chips.

Comments please.  Don't try to spare my blushes.

PokerStars Game #9161152609: Tournament #45992163, $3.00+$0.30 HORSE (Hold'em
Limit) - Level VI (150/300) - 2007/03/30 - 07:41:24 (ET)
Table '45992163 9' 8-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Mr_Mad (4762 in chips)
Seat 2: lookintowin1 (2112 in chips)
Seat 3: kubo67 (1479 in chips)
Seat 4: repsaj12 (1237 in chips)
Seat 5: mrfluffakins (5045 in chips)
Seat 6: Mwahahahaha (1640 in chips)
Seat 7: G.C. King (3182 in chips)
Seat 8: tazsmom (925 in chips)
mrfluffakins: posts small blind 75
Mwahahahaha: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Mwahahahaha [ Kd 8d]
G.C. King: folds
tazsmom: raises 150 to 300
Mr_Mad: folds
lookintowin1: folds
kubo67: folds
repsaj12: folds
mrfluffakins: calls 225
Mwahahahaha: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [Td Ad Qc]
mrfluffakins: checks
Mwahahahaha: bets 150
tazsmom: calls 150
mrfluffakins: calls 150
*** TURN *** [Td Ad Qc] [2c]
mrfluffakins: bets 300
Mwahahahaha: calls 300
tazsmom: raises 175 to 475 and is all-in
mrfluffakins: raises 125 to 600
Mwahahahaha: calls 300
*** RIVER *** [Td Ad Qc 2c] [4c]
mrfluffakins: bets 300
Mwahahahaha: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mrfluffakins: shows [6c Ac] (a flush, Ace high)
mrfluffakins collected 250 from side pot
tazsmom: shows [7s Ah] (a pair of Aces)
mrfluffakins collected 2775 from main pot

This left me 590 in chips.  I ended up sticking it in during the omaha hi/lo round with a non nut flush, beaten by the nuts.

I'm not versed in the ways of limit hold'em tourneys. Play em just like a limit cash game till the blinds get pick, and the strategy reverts almost to NL tourney play.

I might have check raised the flop with that big draw to 12 outs, (11 of which are the nuts)

If I get no callers, happy days coz you pick up the pot with the unmade hand
Lots of callers, happy days because of the bet odds
One caller is not ideal, but we may be able to scare him off a raggy ace with the double sized turn bet.

Nothing much to be said here.

You played a marginal hand pre-flop, got a great flop and didn't hit.  Just unlucky.

Would you have posted this hand if you had hit?

Deffo check raise here.

Not in limit.   

Pass preflop - you have K8 out of position to a preflop raiser which has already been called by someone else. If you pass you still have 10bb left in a limit game which is hardly crisis "all in with any two" time.

;iagree;  pass preflop.

Having called, I'd have checked/called any bets. Not overly going to commit myself on this as one bet isn't going to chase anyone off.

Some folks still pass on the turn in a heads up pot in limit (they do when I have the goods anyway :) )

If second to act and bet at, I'm not advocating a raise, but like to lead here if first to act.

If second to act and it's checked to me, I'm not quite sure.
Sometimes check, sometimes bet. In a tourney, would lean heavily towards checking for the free card. Trouble with that is that it's tough to get paid on the river when you hit, but the pot is juicy already, and no need to risk more chips than I need to. (cash games, the pot is never big enough)

Right...once the flop hits as it does though you have to check raise the flop.

Dont think it really matters whether you check raise or come out firing - your not going to get them both to pass so you have to decide is this the hand i want to go broke with.

And with nut flush and nut gutshot straight draw you have enough outs to justify going broke on this hand, but then when you miss you have to realize thats the chance you take calling preflop raises out of position with marginal hands.

No, because I never remember my winning hands.

But should I have either thrown it away on the turn & saved myself 600 valuable chips, or tought, blow this, it's all or nothing.

The thing is, after the turn i was relying on the cards to win for me.  Can you win by aggresion here ?  Is it worth carrying on with only 600 chips, when there is still a card to come ?

What I'm trying to learn is how I should be feeling/thinking  post flop in these sorts of games.

This is the problem with limit poker - its always "just one more bet". You always seem to be getting the right odds to call with marginal hands but then when you miss you are just frittering away chips.

If you continually save all the "one more bets" it soon adds up..................

Check raising has the bet odds in itself (I think), it builds the pot on the flop for when you hit one of your nut outs, stick in the big turn/river raises, and they are priced in for calling with rags.
It does matter. Makes the difference between netting 4ish big bets when you hit and 8ish big bets when you hit.

If you check raise on the flop then you only net an extra 1 big bet - then what do you do on the turn when you miss?

It's a marginal pre-flop call, but don't worry, it's not as criminal a play as the TAG monkey would have you believe.

If you are comfy with your post flop play, it might even be marginally +EV. Marginal doesn't always mean marginally bad.

never said it was a criminal play - just said that you cant complain when you go broke calling all the way with the worst hand. Yes occasionally you will hit and will be worth it but then you have to look back and see how many times you are making this play to establish whether it is +ev in the long run

The extra big bets comes when they both call the turn raises/re-raises and river bets/raises, rather than just one or none of them if you go for keeping it small. You have a monster draw, and limit poker monster draws like moster pots.

See above for what I do on the turn if I miss.

Two further questions arise

1) If you are trying not to 'waste' bets how do you decide when to call with marginal stuff ?  In this case I thought the pot odds dictated a call.  I wouldn't have called for 300.

2) The problem I have in limit with check raising, is basically, what if noone bets.  Ok so you see a free card.  But if you hit & the board gets scary, can you still expect to get paid off ?  You can't check raise again, so I assume you lead out, but won't everyone ( sane ) just fold ?

but if you check raise the flop then there is an extra 1 big bet in the pot - Mrfluffykins is not going to bet either the turn or river because you have shown strength so either you have to come out firing (and in this case it would mean that the pot ends up slightly less than it did in this example) or you check to give yourself a free card on the river where you miss again and are done with the hand (which gives an even smaller pot).

This is why i hate limit poker :D Implied odds aren't as relevant, its very rare you can force people off pots and bluffing isn't much of a weapon in multiway pots (which you will get many of in the first couple of hours in tourneys like this).

Do you ever check raise the flop in limit without a made hand Matt?

If no-one bets that after the pre-flop action you are probably in a very passive game, and are set to clean up.

TBH  Once I saw the flop, if it had been NL I'd have pushed.  This is where limit gives me a headache.  I don't mind going bust in a cheap tourney like this, it's just a case of when is the best time to do it ?

When the cards drop for you, this game ( at my level ) is easy - you get as much money in the middle as possible.

It's when they don't hit.  Do you just give up ?  Do you try ' one more card ' ?  Do you represent, like you can in NL ?

 :dontask: :dontask:

I've got more chance of cleaning up with a dust pan & brush

yes but not very often, it a move i use more in pot or no limit.

It's simple, you have the best hand on the flop, get as much money in as u can.

The other beauty of the CR on the flop is if you then check the turn the button may be wary of being check raised again and check behind saving you 1/2 a bet when you miss.

These kind of hands are not for TAG's you have to play them wildly aggressive.

but then you also say


if your lucky you can get a free card if you miss by checking and save money

make your mind up ;D

You have best hand on flop, he's talking about the turn in his second quote, where if you miss, you no longer have the best hand and act accordingly.

He says get as much money in on the flop as you can but what if you check on the flop with the intention of check raising but then your opponent behind you checks?

The only way you can guarantee that you get as much money in on the flop is to bet it which is what happens - but then you miss on the turn and your opponent fires out you no longer have the best hand. How do you play it wildly aggressive?

Glass is always half empty with you isn't it. Pre flop raiser is always going to bet that flop.


By check raising the flop  (where have you been?)

Knowing that afterwards when he turns over an ace, however if he had raised preflop with a pocket pair then the ace may scare him and he may check. Only by being at the table and knowing how aggresive your opponent in this situation is could you answer this.

If he checks then its not so bad, we can still hit our 12 outs.....

A single bet is unlikely to put doubt in your opponents mind, a check raise is a hell of a lot stronger.

I agree the check raise is a lot stronger provided you get the opportunity to use it.

If you dont and you get a free card, you miss and are faced with a bet - surely your only play now is to call and see if you hit?

You'd keep going all day if we kept posting too ;D

Yay finally, lol

check/calling - hardly wildy aggresive not for the feint hearted poker is it?

On the flop sir, really by now you should be able to understand this stuff!

understand what?!?!?!? you are saying you need to take the bull by the horns and play these hands aggressively but at the same time you are saying that if you check and its checked behind you then you only option is to just call then pass on the river if you miss!!

How is checking on the flop, calling on the turn and passing on the river wildly aggressive?!?!?!

You are completely reliant on your opponent being aggresive for you to be able to get aggressive, if not your are playing it weak/passive - a complete contradiction.

Its a marginal hand and you are saying its ok to play it LAG, its ok to play it TAG or weak passive. Is there a wrong way to play it?

Your opponent doesn't need to be an aggressive crazeee mark four to bet that flop.

He raised PF, it's a raisers flop, it's checked to him.
For sure a check raise contains a small element of gamble that he will check, but that's the game we play.

I think the monkey doesn't realise that the check raise in limit is a more agressive play than the check raise in no limit.
This is one of the fundamental differences between no limit and limit (in ym own sad little opinion of course)

I agree, to check raise someone in limit poker shows much bigger strength because its so much harder to force people off hands with bluffs. However you have to be playing in a tournament where your opponents are capable of reading it for what it is.

In an online $3 HORSE tourney, the majority of the players all they do is play their own hands without even trying to think what their opponents have - let alone what their opponents are trying to achieve by making the moves they are making.

Like tank says, thats the gamble you take when checking on the flop hoping for a raise.

fair point

You know me so well.....

 ;flushy; ;flushy; ;flushy;