blonde poker forum

Hi guys, i was wondering if u could give me some advice, i was playing a £5/£10 cash game on will hill, and basically ended up allin with aa pre flop against a guy who called j 6 off lol! I won the pot which was nearly 2k. the next morning i awoke to find my account locked and was told i was under investigation for collusion. This lasted nearly 3 weeks and after my account was reopened as i had done nothing wrong, will hill took £955 from my account as it turned out the guy who called allin with j 6 off pre flop had been using a stolen credit card, do i have to let this go or do any of u have any useful info on this subject. Thanks

yep. I would, I think a lot of sites would take the rest of your money as well.

really? I cant remember seeing a case where they found the other person not guilty, but kept the money anyways.

how can they be sure of innocence? seems like a great scam then if you're usually allowed to keep your money.

Take the barstewards WH to the small claims court. It's the reasonibilty of WH and the credit card company to investigate the stolen credit card. You played in good faith and unless they are claiming that you are guilty of knowingly playing against stolen funds with the deliberate aim to transfer funds then I think you have a case.

WH's customer service is appaullijng and they really don't give a stuff about there customers. If you do decide to proceed with some form of action against them pm me as I can give you some interesting details re: WH's lackluster attitude to resolving customer compliants.

LOL I had a rant about WH CS once too, they were pretty terrible, but say for example some dude puts a grand onto Blonde with a stolen credit card and then loses it to me in one hand with J6 against AA.

a) it looks well dodgy

b) assuming I am innocent should tikay have to cough up the grand that I won?

This is utterly shocking - if you had lost would they have given you your money back?  I would report them to the Gambling Commission and copy in the CEO of WH on your letter.  (The  GC prob don't have jurisdiction but its worth embarrassing them)

Atleast they do get back to you at some point,  I have sent three zillion emails to Littlewoods and nobody ever replies.  I even got my mate to send an email on my behalf and that got ignored as well.

Sorry for your loss of money Boss,  I hope you get it back .   Bad customer support =  stop playing there.   DTD customer support is excellent,  even if they were not connected with this forum , I would still say that.  DTD are fast at getting back to you and very helpfull.  

i can see the point that it may look dodgy but i wasnt knowingly involved in any kind of cheating, chip passing etc, and i think had the guy with j 6 won then i prob wouldnt have heard anything from will hill

if j6 would of won does this mean you would of got your money back? i think id be taking this matter further

Yes it looks dodgy but for it to be dodgy on donna8880 part they would have to be party to these scam, otherwise they are also an innoccent party in this situation. WH operate this business and take a number of risks in doing so. Why should the individual such as donna be the one to lose out and not WH. They have a responsibilty to honour matters of good faith even if it makes a minimal dent to there profits. Naturally if this situation occurs on a more frequent pattern then they can act accordingly.

Just like when I had my account hacked into and they did nothing even though all the money was gambled on a single dog race even though I had never gambled on the dogs previously. Infact in my case WH would not have been out of pocket as it was just returning my funds made by a malicious hacker. WH's customer service attitude, the couldn't give a FCUK.

I am not clear on this one. Has the money been returned to the genuine credit card holder who had the money stolen from his account?

I dont like Will Hill's behaviour at all here, but without knowing the full details I guess its unfair to comment... But definately take this further, assuming you are totally innocent I cant see how you should be punished for this...

so just thinking out loud, I get my old mate Hans over in Germany to ring up the Old Bill and say his CC has been stolen, then he deposits on Blonde, dumps £1K off to me, he gets his money back from the CC company who I assume get it back from tikay and I protest my innocence and get to keep my ill gotten gains. That just don't seem right.

I spoke to a Party dude ages ago who said they were losing millions to CC fraud, I guess the figures would be in their public accounts now?

btw I'm not saying the OP is guilty or anything here, I have heard about kids nicking their Dad's CC and losing money like this and I'm sure there are many ways this could happen. Hope it doesn't happen to me.

How long have you been playing on your account with WH, what are your usual levels i.e. do you usually play £5/£10 and sit down with £1k? Have you ever played that person before etc

In this case could the £955 be seen as stolen goods if you like?

For example, if someone stole a car and sold it to me, wouldn't you expect
the police to come round my house and take back the car once the thief was caught?

...if WH gave the £955 back to the cardholder or credit card company
then surely this is just?

 Td Th

Byron

Will hill contact the police to report the fraud and take it from there.  They do not issue their own form of justice - I have never heard of anybody getting money added to their account because they lost to someone who funded an account using a dodgy cc.  There is absolutely no doubt that the OPs funds were at risk in that pot.  If there is proof of wrongdoing fair enough - but there is no way that WH can justify the actions as reported.

 

I believe that a site owner of another site told me that if money is lost due to fraudery then the site is the one who loses out and there is no way of the site getting that money back (in this example WH).

How you had that money removed from your account is a complete joke, i would not be happy.

Again depends on what has happened to the money. I am assuming it has been returned to the card holder that had the money stolen off them.

The cardholders money is never at risk - he will be refunded by the cc company.  You guys appear to to be missing a big issue here.  We all take on players at the table and put OUR MONEY at risk.  If you are play honestly and win, there is no way that anyone is entitled to take money you won away from you.  WH etc could spend time to verify accounts and ccs before letting anyone play.  They choose not to do that because they think they make more money by not doing it.  That is their risk not ours and they have effectively decided that players will take that risk to increase their profits. 

Most Collusion Monitors get a lock on by the Company regarding any suspicious activity, both accounts of money from depositor to cash out are suspended pending investigation, all previous games, previous action, ip addies, transfer of funds, time of play, chat, previous hands, common players etc, are investigated, this applies to laundering and suspected stolen cards. Donna seems to have had a 3 week investigation starting the day after it has been won, they must have had prior knowledge that a dodgy card was being used and monitored it to lock account within 24 hours of win. I don't know cryptos procedures but the strange thing is reinstating account after the winnings were withdrawn?

At the very least ask for professional advice. I can't give you an internet comparison but if someone came into my work with a stolen CC, and then went onto a cash table, and you won £1000 from him, we're not going to say "Give that money back, it was stolen and shouldn't have ever gotten on to the table." We're going to have to cover the costs ourselves. As such, WH should be doing the same. Get advice and take it further.

if WH can retrospectively reclaim "winnings" then all confidence in the system will disappear.

As a punter, you need to be 100% sure that your oppoonent(s) at the table actually have the money sitting in front of them. Otherwise it is as risky as playing some backstreet game where you might get robbed as soon as you step outside.

Couldnt agree more.

They have the software to verify account holders........passwords, they have the software to verify credit cards...........pin numbers, so when we sit at a table to gamble our funds, we should not be in a position to loose, because they have not screened the ooposition at the tables.

IMO that no sites should take monies from anyones account without discussing it with them first

Hi

I do have some some experience of this as I sit on the IBAS panel which adjudicates inlive and internet betting/casino disputes  Firstly the operator is well within their rights to withold funds if they suspect collision. It doesn't have to be proved, just suspected. Chip dumping/collusion with stolen funds is rife on the internet and it is unfortunate when innocent parties are involved. there are cases when anyone playing on the same table as a supected user of a stolen cc has their funds frozen regardless of whether they have played a hand agianst the suspect or not.

The reason the operators give for witholding funds is that thay are waiting for a chargeback from the relevant card company. unfortunately there is no time limit on this process so in reality funds can be frozen forever locked in a cyberspace bank. this is clearly unfair however no-one said life was fair.

i suggest you contact IBAS at PO box 44781, london sw1w 0wr (tel 020 7881 2690) and request a complaints form.  the priocess will involve the case being sent to the panel for adjudication where the hand history for concerned parties wil be iinvestigated and a some of the brightest brains (!) in britain will rule on the case. Al operators who are registered with IBAS must conform with the ruling presented by the panel. IE if they find in your favour you will get your money refunded. If the panel decide that collusion did take place then you have done your dough.

thanks for all the info and replies guys, u have been a big help and ill try some of the suggestions youve made

Wish I had known about the IBAS when I had my dispute with William Hill. How long has this been set up???. Instead I had to put up with being ignored even though my case was fair simplier than donnas. The police were useless as were WH customer service. It was only ever got sorted out because fo the blonde network and it's relationship with bobby1 and him sorting it out.

Re: IBAS, should not every online site and live casino have the obligation to give these details to any customer who has a compliant otherwise how will individuals know of IBAS and it's service???

Hi Dona8880,

We have re-investigated your query today and if you would like any further clarification on the decisions made please PM me directly.

Thanks

go smash up a will hills if there's one near you

For a member of an "Independent panel "it seems quite clear you lean more to protecting the site rather than the consumer.

Also, this from IBAS homepage...

IBAS is a non-statutory service and its rulings are not enforceable in law.

Not much kop then is it?

Stuff the little guy the big boys don't give a ****

Just the type of panel I would like to refer my case to. Think I'm better off trying the small claims court.

It would be nice if the outcome was shared with us so we can make an educated decision on how WH are likely to treat it's innocent players in the future in similar situations.

Then again a quick hush hush, sweep it under the carpet is normally the order of the day.

i have already sent a form to IBAS, as this incident took place a number of months ago, i received a letter confirming they had received my form and im still awaiting the outcome. Thanks again.by the way ,who r u J Lo?? and yes i would like further clarification, ty

I am confused.
If the incident happened several months ago and you have already sent a form to IBAS, why have you raised this on Blonde now?

because it isn't resolved?

All "independent" panels set up by  "x" to keep an eye on  "x"s behaviour will lean towards  "x"s favour .Politicians taught us that .

Defending poker sites actions by using the phrase "no-one said life was fair"
Anyone with a problem must be filled with optimism of your chances of getting their money back.


You say that once IBAS has ruled against you "you  have done your dough"
That's downright untrue, people can still take legal steps to get their money returned.

Is everyone on the panel of similar misleading views as yourself?

Please tell me what legal steps are open to someone who beliieves tha they are owned money by someone holding a gambling licence?

 :)

I am just glad that I didn't waste my breath defending the credit card companies, after all they are evil and do nothing for customers. If they were to write the money off it doesn't actually come from anywhere as they have a magic bucket  of "not really anyones money". Oops I have just wasted my breath. :D

There are none that I know off including the IBAS panel.

The question is does IBAS provide me with a greater opportunity of getting my money back or taking direct action and making the poker playing public aware of the companies policy and general bad attitude towards it's customers, ie providing negative PR is more effective.

I think the phrase "this is clearly unfair however no-one said life was fair" suggests to me that I may be better off going alone. I want empathy and a positive attitude from anybody representating me not apathy.

If donna reported the situation to IBAS sometime ago I'd be interested to hear how they feel about the service they have so far received from IBAS.

Just to confirm. the role of IBAS is to in adjudicate in cases where customers feel they have  been unfairly/wrongly treated by the operator and as a consequence believe they are owed money. IBAS judges each case on its merit using the operators rule book as a guideline. I re-iterate i believe the method of witholding funds, when dealing with suspected chip-dumping or suspected stolen credit card fraud for an indefinate period is unfair, yet within the rules which every user agrees to when signing up to a particular site.

IBAS does not represent individuals or companies.

Any complainant can ask at any time for an update on their case. Some operators are more forthcoming with hand-histories etc which can delay the process.

Took this comment from another site "the industry is spread across the globe with no reason for any of the rooms to agree to comply with any review or arbitration".

So how successful can/has IBAS been???.

I'm all for anything that can help an individual against a company who's customer service is something left to be desired but how effective can IBAS be considering the above point taken from another forum.

Also how does someone become aware of the IBAS organisation because I've never heard of it before this thread.

IBAS have been around for about 10 years so far as I know.

See.....

http://www.ibas-uk.com/

It is, I believe, the successor to what used to be known as the Green Seal Service, which was in the Sporting Life for donkeys years. All punters knew of the Green Seal Service, though punting was very different pre-internet.

So far as I can see, it represents neither the Punter/gambler or the bookie/Online Site. It's independent.

It would be unfair for me to pass opinions on this thread (the above are facts), as Dave Compton, aka Compo, is a personal friend.

J-Lo works for William (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=960) Hill (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=960), & has been a Member of the blonde Forum since June 2006. He has always answered queries & questions which involve William (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=960) Hill (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=960), & his Posts make it clear he's a William (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=960) Hill (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=960) Employee, with the authority to speak on their behalf. He took over as the William Hill spokesman on blonde after Phil (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1246) Quayle (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1246) (bobby1) left the Company.

IBAS may be of use if people knew/know about it.

Changed my mind, bugger sitting on this fence.

donna8880

I don't know this person, who has just joined blonde, & this was their maiden Post I believe. I have no reason to think they are anything but an honest, but disgruntled, punter. Understandably so, but these things ARE very complex, never quite as cut & dried as they look at first sight.

William Hill.

I've worked with them & for them for some time. I don't have any commercial relationship with them at present. They used to sponsor the blonde Forum, & Poker 425. They are a PLC, so you can bet your bottom dollar that whatever they do is covered by Terms & Conditions which existed when the Account was first set up. I have no idea if their Terms & Conditions are "fair & reasonable". Taking all things into consideration, they probably are - as a PLC, it'd be crazy not to be "fair & reasonable", & they'd have been sussed long before now if they were not.

Dave "compo" Compton.

As I said, a personal friend, so my views are not really objective. But he's a pretty big punter, & Online Poker player, in his own right. His role in IBAS is independent, but if he's gonna sway one way or the other, I'd have thought he'd favour the punter if it were a coin-toss type decision. Everyone who has met Dave will testify, (without exception, he has a Thewy-grade squeaky clean image) he's straight as a die, a proper man's man, & no bookie could possibly have him in his pocket, he's a man of the highest integrity. So the implied insults winged at him must be pretty hard for him to bear.

The truth is, these are very complex issues upon which to Rule. On the evidence we have seen, we can understand why donna8880 is miffed, but one imagines it's not as simple as it may look.

I hope donna & WH sort it out, with or without IBAS, but punters & bookies share a common trait - they don't like losing, or being, as they see it, ripped off.

Sort it out guys, & try & understand each other's position. Resolution is easier that way.

It's been around a good few years, & there is a link to Ibas on each of the William Hill Home Pages for.....

Sports Betting

Casino

Poker

Games

Skill

Bingo

Indeed there is a link which just says IBAS. The information is there if you happen to click and read every link you may become aware of the organisation. It's good that such an option exists it's a bit of a lottery of whether you know about it if you every needed such a service.

I suspect if you were every to complain against one of these sites I very much doubt they would mention the services of IBAS. I know I wasn't. Instead they all to frequently prefer to adopt the ignore them and hope the complaint will go away tactic.

If I had a complaint about an Online Site, or Bookie, the first thing I'd do is read their Tems & Conditions, & see what Dispute Resolution mechanisms, if any, they have available. This is a difficult area, as the Law is wholly impotent in this area, so an Independent body is crucial. I have no reason to think IBAS is not wholly independent. And thus, by default, fair. But "fair" is not usually an adjective the loser would use - that's just the way life is!

Many people - not you of course - do not realise, that when dealing with Online Poker Sites, there is NO recourse to Law. Basically, they can do as they want - EXCEPT that they have a Company reputation to maintain, so they need to be fair & reasonable. So, accepting recourse to such as IBAS is a concession by them that they'll generally accept some independent arbitration - and that is above & beyond any legal requirement, for they don't have any!

What an oddity Online Poker is "legally". We put thousands of pounds on Sites where we full well know that the Law cannot protect us. So there must be an assumption of trust before we even begin. Most poker sites are deemed to be "offshore" & as such, beyond International Law. So we should choose where we deposit our cash with some care. The "majors" cannot afford to rip us off, because if they did so, they'd soon lose their customer base. And that''s all the protection we have.

youre right tikay, im new to this forum and have never used any forums before. i didnt notice that it said J Lo worked for will hill

You are welcome donna8880, no problem.

If you send J-Lo a PM, I'm quite sure you will be able to sort it out between you. Please let us know how you get on.

A single click would result in this info on the W Hill's site:

Who are IBAS?
The IBAS Commitment
How does IBAS work?
What is the procedure for ruling on a disputed bet?
Is an IBAS ruling enforceable?
IBAS Aims & Objectives


 
Who are IBAS?
 

The Independent Betting Adjudication Service are an authoritative, totally independent third party, offering adjudication for customers who have an unresolved betting dispute with their bookmaker.

Wlliam Hill is a registered I.B.A.S. bookmaker.

The I.B.A.S website and full contact details can be found at http://www.ibas-uk.com

 
The IBAS Commitment :
 


To guarantee impartiality and fairness to both parties.
To look at each case independently
To adjudicate each case on its merits, taking into account bookmakers' rules
To manage a comprehensive, up-to-date register of bookmakers who as members, have declared an intention to abide by I.B.A.S. rulings on betting disputes.
To maintain a panel of experts (unconnected with the bookmaking industry) possessing the necessary experience and understanding to provide authoritative arbitration.
To give the appropriate amount of care and attention to all disputes.
To ensure confidentiality regarding all communications at all times during the arbitration process.

 
How does IBAS work?
 

Disputes are referred to the service via a standard I.B.A.S. arbitration form on which full details of the dispute should be provided. I.B.A.S. does not under any circumstances rule on disputes in person or over the telephone.

 
What is the procedure for ruling on a disputed bet?
 

Only when the Service Manager is completely satisfied that all other methods of resolving a dispute have been exhausted, will our panel of experts be instructed to offer their adjudication.


Customer calls the I.B.A.S. number to request an arbitration form.


+44 (0) 207 881 2690
Customer carefully completes the form with all relevant information / evidence.
On receipt of the form, the Service Manager will if he considers it appropriate, refer the dispute to the I.B.A.S. panel for adjudication.
On completion of the panel's adjudication, both parties will be informed in writing of the decision.

 
Is an IBAS ruling enforceable?
 

All bookmakers operating within I.B.A.S. are registered with the service and have declared an intention to abide by an I.B.A.S. ruling. Any bookmaker registered who fails to fulfill that commitment will be removed from the register.

 
IBAS Aims & Objectives
 


To strive for a better understanding between bookmakers and their customers.
To campaign for consistency, clarity and fairness in the rules by all the bookmakers.
To advise both bookmakers and customers of common types of invalid or unacceptable bets in an attempt to reduce the number of disputes.
To encourage registered bookmakers to display the I.B.A.S. symbol on their premises, or website, demonstrating their commitment to the customer.
To seek continual improvement to I.B.A.S. for the benefit of both customers and bookmakers.
 
  
 

A single click can result in many things just depends what your clicking in the first place. All I have stated is that the information of such a service is not particully well known and I wonder how many people in the past who may have found it useful but are unaware of it. I suspect the majority of the 7000+ blondes are unaware of IBAS and I also suspect most blondes don't click every single link on each of the sites that they play on and why should they, most of it is just mudane corporate crap.

Thank you for the info, I am now sorted for the future. Shame not everybody who could do with there service is aware of it.

I still think direct action and bad PR are the most effective way to get the corporate suits to respond.

I am just a little player in the scheme of things but "let the buyer beware" is in my opinion not the way for a big corporaton to deal with things. I know we all get shafted at times but there has to be some honour surely.

My point was, the Terms & Conditions are there for us to read. If we don't read them, we can't complain after the event.

My point is it's a shame that the customer service is so often pish that the individual has to look for any help.

even if they are written using teeny weeny letters, go on for many pages and even if you do get out a magnifying glass and read them you wouldn't actually be able to understand anything unless you are some kind of corporate lawyer? 

I understand that and I would have no complaint when it was pointed out to me that I didn't bother to read the small print. I just think that in some cases a bit of leeway from the Giant would not go amiss (the old no admission but here you go scene). But I am also not naive enough to know that there is more to most stories than meet the eye and even big people have to take a stand now and again.

why is that a shame?  its not their job to ensure that you actually do read the terms and conditions when you click a box that says you read and agree to the terms and conditions

Not aware that I did say it's their job to make you read the t&c's so not quite sure what your point is.

The shame is that customer services so often couldn't careless about helping or even assisting their customers.

Well no, I don't think that applies.

If someone (an Online Site) "nicks" say, $1,000 from my Account, I'm gonna be a bit miffed, & I'm gonna want it back.

So what is my first course of action?

1) Check the Terms & Conditions, to see if they are entitled so to do, then.....

2) See what means of redress I have.

In the Wm Hill case, I'd then have found the IBAS Link, & gone through their procedure.

I'm not suggesting for a moment I'd have read all the small print in advance. But once I've got a grievance, I'm not gonna go rushing in spouting off - I'm gonna lay my plans carefully, & go about it the right way.

Do I trust Wm Hill? Personally, yes, of course I do. (Why on earth would they sully their reputation for a small - to them - amount?). But if I don't, I have the IBAS route at my disposal.

Now, according to this thread, IBAS are not independent. But they ARE, & we can't have it both ways.

I dont think he was referring to the terms and conditions, btw i've never heard of ibas either.

If i'd known when betfair ripped me off.........

Exactly

 ;iagree;

Well that's only a shame for THEM.

Because, as sure as God made little apples, if someone demonstrates poor Customer Service, I simply up sticks & go elsewhere.

I play on blonde, Blue Square, Laddies, & Stars, because, amongst other things, they give me good Customer Service.

As it happens, I don't play much on Crypto, for numerous reasons, but I've not heard many complaints about poor Customer Service by Wm Hill or DTD.

I heard of IBAS when i spent 1 min reading the T&C of a pokersite before i signed up.. also if you got ripped off by betfair, the time period is quite generous so you could still have a case.

I dont really know what his point is then, is his point that customer service sometimes sucks? if so, I agree, but its hardly earth shattering news. Should the customer service people be responsible for telling you of IBAS and that stuff? of course not, its not their job.

Betfair say THIS quite clearly under Terms & Conditons. It took me one click to find it. And I'm not Internet savvy, as you know!

If you feel that your complaint was not satisfactorily resolved by us you should make a complaint to IBAS in the UK

Give them a try, you have nothing to lose!

In fact, to dispel the "Corporate Mumbu-Jumbo" myth, here's the ENTIRE page on Betfair Complaints Procedure. It cant be laid out clearer, in more concise language, or more simple, surely?

How To Make A Complaint

If you have a complaint about any part of our product or service, please e-mail Betfair directly. We will attempt to answer all e-mails within 4 hours during Helpdesk hours. If you are an existing Betfair account holder please include your username in all correspondence.

 
Helpdesk and Telephone Betting are manned 24/7 by English speaking Betfair brokers and Helpdesk staff and 3pm to 5am (Beijing time), 7 days-a-week by Mandarin / Cantonese speaking staff.

 
If you feel that your complaint was not satisfactorily resolved by us you should make a complaint to IBAS in the UK or to The Tasmanian Gaming Commission in Australia.
 

And must companies will focus their budgets on attracting new customers rather than looking after the existing ones as longterm what's it matter if they provide bad service and lose a few customers. I also guess customer apathy is their friend.

Just because someone can leave it's no reason for a company not to provide good customer service.

Well we just look at that from directly opposing viewpoints. The whole point of good Customer Service (imo) is to retain Clients. 'Stars are living proof of that, as are Laddies, blonde, Blue Square, & as far as I am aware, most "big-name" Sites, the only exception I know being Party. Don't go THERE, then you would have reason to complain!

Other organisations do. Anglian Water give you details of OFWAT. Financial companies give you the FSA details if you register a complaint with them. So why shouldn't individuals be made aware of the IBAS option. Indeed an individual can find the information themselves but if an organisation is customer friendly they will give you options or at least try to deal with it themselves.

The oh so often silent, ignore the complaint procedure is not a very helpful one and why shouldn't they give out IBAS details if someone writes or phones to complain. IBAS are an independant body that are there to help resolve issues which is surely good for whatever company involved..........thats unless they think the silent ignore it approach will be more benefical in the long run.

you are mixing up companies with customer services, of course companies can (and have to)  advise you on this, but the customer services cant. With the FSA/financial companies you need qualifications before you can give any advice at all on someones account, I know this because it was my first job, working for a marketmaker in london, so when u call up and have a grievance, the CS reps cant tell you your options/give you advice on what to do with your account when a dispute arises , they have to refer you to compliance, who will then run you through your options.

In no way is my viewpoint different as I fully believe the aim of customer service should be to provide a good service and retain their clients. What I sadly find is that many companies are all to keen to invest heavily in it's marketing for new clients at the cost of providing a good customer service department. Many companies make a decision of why worry about losing a few due to poor customer service when we are attracting so many more from our marketing.

Not true - its much much cheaper to retain a customer than get a new one - basic economics. For every £1 spent on retaining customers you save five times the amount you would need to spend on getting new customers in. Existing customers already have accepted brand, have experienced the product and are still buying, are are more likely to buy again from the same source.

If you look at any of the major retailers in the UK - tescos for example - their advertising is designed to keep the existing shopper happy not to get new ones. They accept that people will be loyal to their favourite shop like sainbury's, so they spend lots of money instore keeping existing customers - for example on computers for schools and reward points.

I use to work as a financial consultant so am aware of the compliance procedure and differences on what must be done and what is just good practise. Indeed customer service have no obligation to provide this information but some companies do and some don't. I'm just saying why don't they assist the issue of resolving a complaint by letting you know your options rather than the all to frequent ignore the individual and hope they get tried of complaining.

A good company helps it's customersor at leasts trys. Other just take the money from the account and hope they don't question it.

On that, we agree 100%. So OUR job (the Client) is to only deal with Companies we trust, & who we believe have good Customer Service. If they don't have good Customer Service, or if they look after me shabbily, believe me, I won't give them my business. And I think, from what I've seen over the last few years on blonde, there have been a mere handful of complaints about Wm Hill's Customer Service. And let's face it, some folks are never gonna be happy - I've even heard complaints about 'Stars, whose CS is legendary.

Ultimately, we are responsible for our own actions, in almost everything. If I don't like Sainsbury's Customer Service, I shop at Tesco's! It's that simple.

I'm aware of the cost factors of keeping a customer and attracting a new one as I have worked in marketing. This doesn't mean that every company adopts this module. Infact this is one of the key messages that a large % of British companies ignore and why their end up spending the wrong ratio of their budget towards marketing vs customer service. Utter rubbish you say, yes if your looking at mere theory, the reality is somewhat different.

This argument is very dull.

Can't you people argue about something a little bit more entertaining?

Or at least indulge in a spot of name calling....

 rotflmfao rotflmfao

I'm not sure if you're referring to the % of companies inthe Uk as a whole - in which case you would be correct because that includes the smaller companies without necesarilly the correct direction, if however you look at the companies providing the largest share of the UK's GDP, many with the largest customer bases, then you would find their approach is very different and concentrates on customer retention.

Anyway it's late - I have a meeting early tomorrow which will hopefully lead to new clients and isn't going to cost me a penny - so I'll leave you all to chunter on. x

I only ever have one question of independant bodies....how are you financed?
Then I decide how independant they are.

I have had nothing to do with Bill Hill after a spread betting debacle about 11 years ago.
Though my case did change how they worded the teletext spread betting page lol.

TBF if everyone only signed up to betting and poker sites with acceptable T&C's they would be very quiet poker rooms lol.
Generally designed to protect the company....as does all smallprint for all companies in all walks off life...standard.

IFM, how long ago was your dispute with Betfair?

If you still have the "paperwork" a referral to IBAS might be still worthwhile. Bit like still having a chip in a tourny, you could either bust or go on a run to the money...

As Tikay says, if you have any problems with William Hill please PM me directly and I will endeavor to reply as quickly as possible.

Not shoot them at first glance, like your picture suggests...!

received an e-mail from JLo telling me that will hill are currently in contact with IBAS and that will hill will go with any decision that IBAS come too. Fingers crossed

It is actually a few years back now, how old is blonde? about then.
Tikay has probably forgotten about it because he surely would have guided me towards that ibas link at the time, he know's everything see?
If by chance the link only appeared recently then i may have missed it because i swore i would avoid the thieving bastards like the plague after my problem, oh well i wrote off the 550 euros years ago so nevermind.

Well done, I think that's the best result you could wish for, & I'm sure IBAS will make their decision with some care.

For all the hoohah on this thread, it's easy to forget. The bugger that caused all this trouble seems to have almost escaped criticism, & you & Wm Hill, who are, in effect, disputing who has to bear the cost of Matey Boys misdemeanours, end up at each others throats.

A bad do all round, & I hope you get a result, for it's clear that you have done nothing wrong. If only, though, it were that simple!