money taken from my account by Will Hill

[tikay]

Changed my mind, bugger sitting on this fence.

donna8880

I don't know this person, who has just joined blonde, & this was their maiden Post I believe. I have no reason to think they are anything but an honest, but disgruntled, punter. Understandably so, but these things ARE very complex, never quite as cut & dried as they look at first sight.

William Hill.

I've worked with them & for them for some time. I don't have any commercial relationship with them at present. They used to sponsor the blonde Forum, & Poker 425. They are a PLC, so you can bet your bottom dollar that whatever they do is covered by Terms & Conditions which existed when the Account was first set up. I have no idea if their Terms & Conditions are "fair & reasonable". Taking all things into consideration, they probably are - as a PLC, it'd be crazy not to be "fair & reasonable", & they'd have been sussed long before now if they were not.

Dave "compo" Compton.

As I said, a personal friend, so my views are not really objective. But he's a pretty big punter, & Online Poker player, in his own right. His role in IBAS is independent, but if he's gonna sway one way or the other, I'd have thought he'd favour the punter if it were a coin-toss type decision. Everyone who has met Dave will testify, (without exception, he has a Thewy-grade squeaky clean image) he's straight as a die, a proper man's man, & no bookie could possibly have him in his pocket, he's a man of the highest integrity. So the implied insults winged at him must be pretty hard for him to bear.

The truth is, these are very complex issues upon which to Rule. On the evidence we have seen, we can understand why donna8880 is miffed, but one imagines it's not as simple as it may look.

I hope donna & WH sort it out, with or without IBAS, but punters & bookies share a common trait - they don't like losing, or being, as they see it, ripped off.

Sort it out guys, & try & understand each other's position. Resolution is easier that way.

[tikay]

IBAS may be of use if people knew/know about it.

It's been around a good few years, & there is a link to Ibas on each of the William Hill Home Pages for.....

Sports Betting

Casino

Poker

Games

Skill

Bingo

[thediceman]

Indeed there is a link which just says IBAS. The information is there if you happen to click and read every link you may become aware of the organisation. It's good that such an option exists it's a bit of a lottery of whether you know about it if you every needed such a service.

I suspect if you were every to complain against one of these sites I very much doubt they would mention the services of IBAS. I know I wasn't. Instead they all to frequently prefer to adopt the ignore them and hope the complaint will go away tactic.

[tikay]

Indeed there is a link which just says IBAS. The information is there if you happen to click and read every link you may become aware of the organisation. It's good that such an option exists it's a bit of a lottery of whether you know about it if you every needed such a service.

I suspect if you were every to complain against one of these sites I very much doubt they would mention the services of IBAS. I know I wasn't. Instead they all to frequently prefer to adopt the ignore them and hope the complaint will go away tactic.

If I had a complaint about an Online Site, or Bookie, the first thing I'd do is read their Tems & Conditions, & see what Dispute Resolution mechanisms, if any, they have available. This is a difficult area, as the Law is wholly impotent in this area, so an Independent body is crucial. I have no reason to think IBAS is not wholly independent. And thus, by default, fair. But "fair" is not usually an adjective the loser would use - that's just the way life is!

Many people - not you of course - do not realise, that when dealing with Online Poker Sites, there is NO recourse to Law. Basically, they can do as they want - EXCEPT that they have a Company reputation to maintain, so they need to be fair & reasonable. So, accepting recourse to such as IBAS is a concession by them that they'll generally accept some independent arbitration - and that is above & beyond any legal requirement, for they don't have any!

What an oddity Online Poker is "legally". We put thousands of pounds on Sites where we full well know that the Law cannot protect us. So there must be an assumption of trust before we even begin. Most poker sites are deemed to be "offshore" & as such, beyond International Law. So we should choose where we deposit our cash with some care. The "majors" cannot afford to rip us off, because if they did so, they'd soon lose their customer base. And that''s all the protection we have.

[donna8880]

youre right tikay, im new to this forum and have never used any forums before. i didnt notice that it said J Lo worked for will hill

[tikay]

youre right tikay, im new to this forum and have never used any forums before. i didnt notice that it said J Lo worked for will hill

You are welcome donna8880, no problem.

If you send J-Lo a PM, I'm quite sure you will be able to sort it out between you. Please let us know how you get on.

[Robert HM]

Indeed there is a link which just says IBAS. The information is there if you happen to click and read every link you may become aware of the organisation. It's good that such an option exists it's a bit of a lottery of whether you know about it if you every needed such a service.

I suspect if you were every to complain against one of these sites I very much doubt they would mention the services of IBAS. I know I wasn't. Instead they all to frequently prefer to adopt the ignore them and hope the complaint will go away tactic.

A single click would result in this info on the W Hill's site:

Who are IBAS?
The IBAS Commitment
How does IBAS work?
What is the procedure for ruling on a disputed bet?
Is an IBAS ruling enforceable?
IBAS Aims & Objectives


 
Who are IBAS?
 

The Independent Betting Adjudication Service are an authoritative, totally independent third party, offering adjudication for customers who have an unresolved betting dispute with their bookmaker.

Wlliam Hill is a registered I.B.A.S. bookmaker.

The I.B.A.S website and full contact details can be found at http://www.ibas-uk.com

 
The IBAS Commitment :
 


To guarantee impartiality and fairness to both parties.
To look at each case independently
To adjudicate each case on its merits, taking into account bookmakers' rules
To manage a comprehensive, up-to-date register of bookmakers who as members, have declared an intention to abide by I.B.A.S. rulings on betting disputes.
To maintain a panel of experts (unconnected with the bookmaking industry) possessing the necessary experience and understanding to provide authoritative arbitration.
To give the appropriate amount of care and attention to all disputes.
To ensure confidentiality regarding all communications at all times during the arbitration process.

 
How does IBAS work?
 

Disputes are referred to the service via a standard I.B.A.S. arbitration form on which full details of the dispute should be provided. I.B.A.S. does not under any circumstances rule on disputes in person or over the telephone.

 
What is the procedure for ruling on a disputed bet?
 

Only when the Service Manager is completely satisfied that all other methods of resolving a dispute have been exhausted, will our panel of experts be instructed to offer their adjudication.


Customer calls the I.B.A.S. number to request an arbitration form.


+44 (0) 207 881 2690
Customer carefully completes the form with all relevant information / evidence.
On receipt of the form, the Service Manager will if he considers it appropriate, refer the dispute to the I.B.A.S. panel for adjudication.
On completion of the panel's adjudication, both parties will be informed in writing of the decision.

 
Is an IBAS ruling enforceable?
 

All bookmakers operating within I.B.A.S. are registered with the service and have declared an intention to abide by an I.B.A.S. ruling. Any bookmaker registered who fails to fulfill that commitment will be removed from the register.

 
IBAS Aims & Objectives
 


To strive for a better understanding between bookmakers and their customers.
To campaign for consistency, clarity and fairness in the rules by all the bookmakers.
To advise both bookmakers and customers of common types of invalid or unacceptable bets in an attempt to reduce the number of disputes.
To encourage registered bookmakers to display the I.B.A.S. symbol on their premises, or website, demonstrating their commitment to the customer.
To seek continual improvement to I.B.A.S. for the benefit of both customers and bookmakers.
 
  
 

[thediceman]

A single click can result in many things just depends what your clicking in the first place. All I have stated is that the information of such a service is not particully well known and I wonder how many people in the past who may have found it useful but are unaware of it. I suspect the majority of the 7000+ blondes are unaware of IBAS and I also suspect most blondes don't click every single link on each of the sites that they play on and why should they, most of it is just mudane corporate crap.

Thank you for the info, I am now sorted for the future. Shame not everybody who could do with there service is aware of it.

I still think direct action and bad PR are the most effective way to get the corporate suits to respond.

[tikay]

A single click can result in many things just depends what your clicking in the first place. All I have stated is that the information of such a service is not particully well known and I wonder how many people in the past who may have found it useful but are unaware of it. I suspect the majority of the 7000+ blondes are unaware of IBAS and I also suspect most blondes don't click every single link on each of the sites that they play on and why should they, most of it is just mudane corporate crap.

Thank you for the info, I am now sorted for the future. Shame not everybody who could do with there service is aware of it.

I still think direct action and bad PR are the most effective way to get the corporate suits to respond.

I suspect the majority of the 7000+ blondes are unaware of IBAS and I also suspect most blondes don't click every single link on each of the sites that they play on

Agreed - UNTIL they have a dispute. THEN they should go & look for this kind of thing - it's not hidden.

most of it is just mudane corporate crap.

caveat emptor.

[The_duke]

I am just a little player in the scheme of things but "let the buyer beware" is in my opinion not the way for a big corporaton to deal with things. I know we all get shafted at times but there has to be some honour surely.

[tikay]

I am just a little player in the scheme of things but "let the buyer beware" is in my opinion not the way for a big corporaton to deal with things. I know we all get shafted at times but there has to be some honour surely.

My point was, the Terms & Conditions are there for us to read. If we don't read them, we can't complain after the event.

[thediceman]

My point is it's a shame that the customer service is so often pish that the individual has to look for any help.

[byronkincaid]

I am just a little player in the scheme of things but "let the buyer beware" is in my opinion not the way for a big corporaton to deal with things. I know we all get shafted at times but there has to be some honour surely.

My point was, the Terms & Conditions are there for us to read. If we don't read them, we can't complain after the event.

even if they are written using teeny weeny letters, go on for many pages and even if you do get out a magnifying glass and read them you wouldn't actually be able to understand anything unless you are some kind of corporate lawyer? 

[The_duke]

I understand that and I would have no complaint when it was pointed out to me that I didn't bother to read the small print. I just think that in some cases a bit of leeway from the Giant would not go amiss (the old no admission but here you go scene). But I am also not naive enough to know that there is more to most stories than meet the eye and even big people have to take a stand now and again.

[totalise]

My point is it's a shame that the customer service is so often pish that the individual has to look for any help.

why is that a shame?  its not their job to ensure that you actually do read the terms and conditions when you click a box that says you read and agree to the terms and conditions