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Breaking news on BBC sport, they held 'secret talks' with Jurgen Klinsmann before he accepted the Munich job last week... Undermining him, he'll be off soon...


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/7187086.stm

Shocking behaviour from the board, Also heard on talksport that they might be selling the club again?!

the US credit crunch does not help these cross border financing of uneconomic play-things

Shocking is not the word.... They need to shoot these muppets, and maybe Raffa 2, it has never been the Liverpool way like this in the public through the red tops and with SSN and all the other news channells desperate for information the whole sorry saga can only end 1 way, that will be Raffa going and some clown coming in, and maybe the americans selling...

Raffa may have lost it, may not,  I dont know any more, but 1 thing for sure the constant Raffa is going rubbish has been going since the start of the season, and i'm sure its not helping the situation.

I fear a clean break is required, maybe the only way we will be left alone, im sure we will sell our soul and get the oh so special one (who the hell else is there better), as much as I really want to see Liverpool win the league and i will be over the moon if we did, it will be a hollow title if he won it for us..

Lets batter Luton tommorow night, and see what happens from there. I'm sure Raffas job will be on the line if he does not win (Red Top Exclusive tommorow im sure).

Alan Hansen's view

Liverpool co-owner Tom Hicks's admission that he spoke to Jurgen Klinsmann about becoming the team manager is an amazing story.

I haven't got a clue why he has come out and said this; maybe the story was going to come out and he thought he'd be better off making a statement first.

Whichever way you look at it though, these events cannot do anything but undermine manager Rafael Benitez.

His position is not untenable, but for one of the owners to come out and publicly say he had talks with the man who was heavily linked with Benitez's job - well, it puts even more pressure on the Spaniard.

Benitez is saying nothing, which I think is the most sensible thing to do. But if there is tension between him and the owners, this is only going to heighten it.

I think that is the biggest thing for me. If it adds to that tension then that will eventually start to affect the team on the pitch, that's an absolute certainty.

Players aren't really interested in new stadiums and things like that, it doesn't affect them. But when something affects the manager who is picking the team and influencing their careers, you can bet it will start to have an impact on them.

Liverpool are obviously struggling at the minute.

They have had four draws on the trot, they are 12 points adrift of Manchester United and Arsenal in the Premier League, and I think this is the last thing they need.

It has definitely come at a bad time. There's never a great time for stories like this to come out, but it's far better if you are flying. They are off the pace and it will be interesting to see how this one pans out.

Insurance policy or whatever Hicks wants to call it - and we have to take him at his word because he is apparently a man of great integrity - the fact is he met Klinsmann and offered him the job if Benitez went, which is remarkable.

I think that in the Premier League, every manager apart from Sir Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger are two games away from the sack, so things might not have changed much from that point of view.

I'll post on this in a bit.  A lot of what the media has written and said on this (for example Hansen) doesn't quite fit in with what was actually said or the chronological order of events.

However, in saying that I can't stand Hicks.  His involvement with the club is not a good thing as far as I'm concerned. 

Surely the beginning of the end was when he signed Voronin.

                                         :dontask:

He didn't cost anything, so hardly the worst crime against football.  Playing him ahead of Crouch is though.  Then there's Kuyt, who cost about £9M.

Fair enough. I didn't realise he was a free.

No one would pay anything for him!!!  ;D

I have had misgivings about our owners for a little while now but today is the first time in my life I've ever been embarrased by events at Liverpool FC and I can only blame the owners. This is not the Liverpool way.

To date they've gone back on a promise not to borrow money against the club.

Had the new stadium redesigned because of extra costs.

Claimed to have invested heavily in the playing squad. We spent £37 million in the summer and recouped £19 million. So our net spend was £18 million. (Fulham, Spurs and Newcastle spent more - Man U spent that on 2 individual players this summer, Hargreaves and Anderson) Not much considering even the bottom placed premiership team gets £30 million this season. So they havent spent that much really.

The there's "being able to compete in the transfer market". We're meant to be able to compete with the other big clubs in the transfer market since they arrived to save us. Our highest ever fee for a defender is £6.5 million - quite a bit short of Chelsea's £22 mil for a defender and Man U's £30 mil. Even Spurs have spent 10 million on Bale and 8.2 on Dean Richards a while back - Newcastle spent 8 on Boumsong etc etc

We were also denied access to sign Kakhaber Kaladze on a free from Milan (possibly because they thought Klinsman was coming?) a player who's won 2 European Cups.

Then there also today's other revelation.

Courtesy of the Echo:

"The ECHO understands that despite missing out on buying the club in its entirety when David Moores opted to sell his shares to Hicks and Gillett, DIC maintained an interest in Liverpool which resurfaced in October.

And when Hicks and Gillett attended the home game against Arsenal on the 28th of that month an intermediary brought the two parties together.

On the table was a minority shareholding. Initially, DIC wanted a 20% stake but Hicks and Gillett were willing to offer them no more than 10%. But a compromise of 15% was eventually reached and at that stage it looked likely that DIC would finally be able to invest in Liverpool FC.

That was until they learned that Hicks and Gillett had valued the club at £1bn, a figure which meant they would have to pay £150m if they wanted to purchase the proposed 15% stake. There was also a proviso that any such deal could only be concluded if DIC agreed to forego any voting rights.

At that point, DIC pulled out of the talks insistent that the club had been overvalued, particularly as Hicks and Gillett had purchased it for just £218.9m (including £44.8m of debt) just 10 months earlier.

The new £1bn valuation was based on what Hicks and Gillett estimated the club would be worth once the new Anfield stadium was built – a valuation which DIC felt was over the top.

The ECHO understands that if Liverpool FC was put up for sale DIC would again be willing to make an offer.

But, contrary to newspaper reports yesterday, no official offers for the club have been made and no meetings are planned between Hicks and Gillett and DIC."

I really dont like or trust our owners.

Now they admit treating Rafa like a mug only to line up Jurgen "no CV" Klinsman who was nearly sacked by the German FA 2 months prior to the world cup Germany ended up doing ok in! Rafa was right when he said they know nothing of "soccer".

I really hope they go and sooner rather than later.

Was it also not the Liverpool way when there was all that stuff with Gerrard going (2 or 3 years ago) and the cheif exec (Parry?) calling him out on SSN?!!

Like Baron pointed out I don't see how they could really ask for anymore from Rafa.

He obviously knows that they can't win the league so concentrates on CL whilst trying to ensure they qualify for the CL again the following season. His problem should only come if it all blows up in his face and is left with no CL place, no run in the competition and doesn't pick any of the domestic stuff up...

By the way I'm sure Rafa knew he was close to going.

When we went 2-1 down to Reading (before the Marseille game) he took Gerrard off and got loads of stick for it as we lost 3-1. However, we beat Marseille 4-0 and Hicks today said that he would have went had we not qualified. I have no doubt Rafa knows how close he was to going.

Shocking that a guy who's made 2 European Cup finals in 3 years could go because of one bad season in Europe - my bet is Liverpool are not as financially sound as people think and we needed the money. (There is a Feb 1st deadline for the RBOS bankloan)

I can see Rafa going in the summer either way. The yanks dont like him. The fans will hate it though.

Correct Rooky. Parry is behind a lot of what is wrong with Liverpool at the moment. Dont even get me started on him or I'll be posting for hours!

So he is supported then? On the rare occations I have the radio on, or when SSn have random text read outs, Liverpool fans seem to give him constant stick over his squad rotation. I think there was one on about not thinking he can take them any further! Surely just doing what he has already done again would be good enough.  Having said that I'm pretty aware of how the sporting media can put whatever perspective on things they want!!

This is gods way of punishing the mickey mousers for taking the piss out of the geordies :)

Prior to the Porto game at home when people thought he might be sacked fans either signed a petition or marched to Anfield that night in fear that he was going. (The total of which may have been as many as 60,000) They then sang his name pretty much the whole way through the game.

I'd guess a lot of Liverpool fans have doubts about rotation (myself included) but by and large we can see which way the club has moved under him. With the finances clubs above us have had in recent years I think he can go much, much further.

Most fans, who arent still under the illusion that we've a god given right to win the league every year, can see how far we've come from the days of Biscan and Traore whilst under Benitez.

Behave yourself!

Truth is it's god way of punishing us for laughing at Spurs for the last 10 years!

The 'fans' that phone in to 606 or whatever are never happy.  They're the ones that disliked Crouch (and still do), who forget that football wasn't invented by Sky, and that Liverpool have been a shadow of what the club once once (which started under Souness and continued until Houllier slowly started to turn things round - although he took things as far as he could).  Rafa still has the support of the majority of the fans (despite some very puzzling selections).  The 'Rafalution' seems to be slowing down though.  Liverpool have always given their managers time, but this whole episode is so 'un-Liverpool' like.

I'm going to post a piece from anfieldroad.com (going to have to post it in installments as it exceeds the maximum length a post can be!!).  It's very pro-Rafa, but on the whole I agree with the sentiments:

Rafa’s first match after that argument with the owners, referred to later by Hicks as “The Rift”, was the trip to Newcastle. At that stage Liverpool were still unbeaten and then-Newcastle boss Sam Allardyce was starting to come under fire for poor results, but with the turmoil going on behind the scenes nobody could be sure how the manager and his players would react. Rafa stood on the touchline in a tracksuit and white trainers, a noticeable contrast to his suit - he was being a coach instead of a manager, he was humorously showing the owners that he was concentrating on that side of things, as ordered.

Liverpool won the game 3-0, although pundits were looking for victims not heroes, so rather than there being praise for Rafa the emphasis was on knocking the former Bolton manager Allardyce. Liverpool could have won even more convincingly, had the referee seen the Newcastle keeper Shay Given handle outside the area for what would have been a red card. This result was a significant one for another reason - Liverpool had won after an international break, something they’d struggled to do more often than not, even earlier this season.

The following day Chris Bascombe, a confidant of Rafa and others at the club, formerly of the Echo but now at the News of the World, reported that the owners had already decided to sack the boss. Their plans had been made well before the outburst at the pre-match press conference for that Newcastle game, and had no relationship to results on the field. Rafa had spoken to them after the Arsenal game, on the 28th of October and had told them of his plans for the next transfer window. It was only in the days before the Newcastle game that he realised his plans were being blocked, and that his future was unlikely to be at Anfield after the summer. It wasn’t just Bascombe reporting this either, the story was coming from various directions, the owners wanted to sack the best manager the club had seen since Kenny Dalglish, pretty much because they didn’t like him.

Next for the Reds was a visit from FC Porto to Anfield. It was the first home match since the owners’ plans to sack the boss had hit the headlines, and thousands of Liverpool fans marched to show their support for the boss. It was an important fixture too - after managing only one point from the first three games, Liverpool had got the Champions League campaign back on track by beating Besiktas 8-0 at Anfield, a win achieved despite Fernando Torres being out injured. They needed to win this match too, and did so with a few goals to spare in the end. It wasn’t always looking that way though - the scores were level at 1-1 until Torres got his second of the night with just 12 minutes left. The game ended 4-1 and Liverpool’s Champions League future was in their own hands. Although a draw might be enough in the final game against Marseille, depending on the result in the other match, a win would guarantee them being in the competition in the New Year.

First of all it was back to the league, and on the 2nd of December the Reds played host to Bolton, who had recently changed manager. Another high-scoring game from the Reds ended 4-0. It was a convincing display, taking Liverpool to third in the league, with more points at that stage in the season than they had achieved in 16 of their 18 league-title winning seasons. The future was looking good, but the doubts about what the situation was off-the-field would not go away.

There had still been no denial from the owners about their alleged plans to sack Rafa. Not a word. Yet denials of any reports that in any way suggested the owners had fallen out with each other or were suffering the pinch financially were issued without delay, either as official statements or as quotes from Rick Parry to the Echo or BBC.

On the 8th of December Liverpool faced Reading. Rafa knew that the owners were waiting for an excuse to sack him. Despite Rafa always talking about only concentrating on one game at a time, the spectre of that final Champions League group game in three days was surely figuring high in his worries. He didn’t want to risk Sami Hyypia for this league game, so Jack Hobbs started in the centre of defence. Probably concerned about the youngster being exposed he also chose to utilise two defensive midfielders, Javier Mascherano and the no-longer “Boss” Momo Sissoko. On paper it looked like a 4-3-3, with Voronin, Crouch and Torres up front, but often became 4-5-1 with Voronin and Crouch finding themselves out wide and out of place. Torres was taken off after 60 minutes; despite his denials Rafa was clearly thinking ahead to the game that he knew he had to win in France.

Rafa got a lot of criticism for that defeat - the first of the season - and one of the reasons for that was his substitution of Torres with 30 minutes to go and with the score only at 2-1. He’d thrown the towel in according to many, especially when with nearly twenty minutes to go and the score now at 3-1 he took the captain off too. He claimed that the players still on the pitch were capable of getting back into the game, but who could blame him for prioritising the Champions League ahead of this league game? One defeat in the league is barely grounds for the owners to sack him and to have any chance of the fans supporting them in the decision. But going out of the Champions League before Christmas might just be enough to cover up the fact their decision was made without consideration of results on the field.

George Gillett was now on his way to Europe. Both owners had said they would be at the Manchester United game, and that they would speak to the manager ahead of that game. Gillett actually wanted to take in the Marseille game too and was there in France to see the Reds qualify in style for the knockout phases. Gerrard got the early goal, knocking the rebound in from his saved penalty, Torres scored yet another goal and even Kuyt got on the scoresheet. Ryan Babel rounded it all off, Liverpool won 4-0. Unfortunately they only finished second in the group, but they were through, and Rafa’s job was a little safer.

Rafa returned to England, hoping to finally get a chance to talk to the owners about what had been happening, why things had changed since that Arsenal game. George Gillett was due to appear live on TalkSport radio, but backed out late in the day. Perhaps Hicks had warned him against speaking live in case he let anything slip. However, despite those talks being considered of utmost importance to Rafa and the club’s supporters, the owners decided there was still no hurry, and they’d speak to him after the match.

Worried about his future, nervous about what he would be told, Rafa was expected to prepare his team for one of the biggest games in the calendar. Manchester United are rivals because of the rivalry between the two cities, and also of course because of the fact that the Reds have to finish higher than them if they want to win the league. The owners were happy to let Rafa deal with that extra pressure, happy to let him suffer. They got Rick Parry to deny a report that the stadium plans had been ditched, but did nothing whatsoever to reassure the manager. The team suffered as a result. It was far from an entertaining match, and like the previous season United seemed happy to sit back and play for a draw, hoping to snatch a goal against the run of play. And like the previous season United got that goal, in this case a lucky deflection. The difference between the two seasons was that there was no time left in the game for the Reds to pull one back last time round, this time the goal had come just before half-time. But Rafa was unable to rally his troops, to help them to raise their games, and the match ended in a defeat. A demoralised Rafa was then finally granted an audience with the owners. Owners who had still not managed to refinance the bridging loan they’d taken out with RBS, a loan they had said at the end of October would be in place within 30 days. Owners who would admit the following day that the plans for the new stadium had been ditched after all. “Downgraded”, said Rick Parry to the Echo, although the official website was forced to change his quotes so that this word was replaced with “different”.

After the meeting Rafa walked out tight-lipped. Rick Parry said the following day - indirectly through one of his friends at BBC Sport - that Rafa had been told not to discuss club policy in public again. Gillett spoke at an ex-players party about liking Rafa, and a statement was released claiming everything was positive. It was also on this day that the first mention of Jurgen Klinsmann was made as a possible replacement for Rafael Benitez, but this link came from a source not renowned for being on the money when it comes to Liverpool matters. As such it was largely ignored by Reds.

And there was still no denial that they’d made plans to sack Rafa. Perhaps the biggest and most-repeated allegation against the owners since the season began, and there was still no denial. Rafa had to pretend everything was now fine, regardless of his true feelings, because the owners had told him so.

A defeat against Chelsea in the Carling Cup soon followed on the 19th of December, although Chelsea put out a much stronger side than the Reds, and it looked like it was going to be a bleak Christmas with the next team to be faced being Portsmouth, something of a bogey team for Liverpool and one that had already taken two points off the Reds earlier in the season. But Liverpool showed some true character and beat the South Coast side 4-1.

The next day came more links with the owners and Klinsmann. DIC were again being touted as potential saviours of the club, if they could buy out owners who had miscalculated what they needed to do to run a football club. One of those miscalculations was the possible hiring of Jurgen Klinsmann to replace Rafa from the summer, a name that made many Liverpool fans shudder almost as much as that of the loathed Jose Mourinho. Nobody expected the club to deny the latest claims Rafa was heading for the sack, but it was a surprise that Parry wasn’t wheeled out to deny the possibility of DIC stepping in to buy the club from the struggling owners.

Perhaps the PR machine was on holiday, as everything went quiet until Boxing Day. That’s when the Reds managed another victory - 2-1 over Derby County. Christmas was looking promising for the Reds.

The usual phone-in and forum critics weren’t happy of course. Liverpool had gone ahead against County but were pegged back to 1-1 in the middle of the second half. It was looking like a draw until Gerrard got a winner in the last minute. The critics got their knives out and added more pressure to Rafa’s already full plate.

They got more of their wishes on the 30th - Liverpool travelled to Manchester City to face a team intent on not losing. City defended well, Liverpool made a lot of chances, but none went in. The game ended 0-0, and the critics had now forgotten about the last two wins. They forgot again the day after the New Year when the Reds drew their first game of 2008. This was at home to Wigan Athletic, and finished 1-1, after a defensive blunder let Wigan equalise. Steve Bruce has been a thorn in Liverpool’s side as Birmingham manager for years, except for a 7-0 cup win, and had already managed a draw as Birmingham’s boss at Anfield earlier in the season. After benefitting from a mistake there was no way his side were going to let Liverpool back into the game.

The transfer window was now open of course, but very little was being said about Liverpool’s plans. Javier Mascherano had made a plea before the Wigan game to be allowed to stay at Anfield, but said that if the owners did not act soon it would be difficult for him to stay. It wasn’t just Mascherano being put under pressure by the owners’ inability to sort out their finances.

Still no denial from the owners about Rafa’s future, and on the following Sunday all the papers reported that Rafa was telling friends he was expecting the axe; he was a “dead man walking” according to one paper. This was the morning of the Luton game, the FA Cup match. These games are never easy, especially away on difficult pitches, with one team treating it like a cup final and the other not quite sure how to treat it. Numerous top-flight teams had either gone out or been held in the other games in the 3rd round. And on top of this came the blast of headlines that Rafa himself had been saying he expected to be fired. The following day Rafa strenuously denied the stories had come from him, explaining that the press had spoken to him privately after the last press conference, but that none of what they said had come from him. He was still trying hard to follow orders and not discuss club policy in public.

Liverpool were lacklustre against Luton. Rafa’s preparations not helped, his team not exactly inspired, by headlines again saying he was on his way. And again, no word from Rafa’s bosses that any of this was nonsense. Liverpool struggled throughout the game, went 1-0 up against the run of play, then let Luton equalise with an own-goal. More criticism for Rafa, but no support from above. The claims that Klinsmann had been lined up continued, although some Liverpool-related journalists said this talk had come from outside Anfield, it had come from others in football.

On the following Friday, 11th January, there was a chance to see some positives. Jurgen Klinsmann had accepted the job of coaching Bayern Munich from next season. He was quoted as having said he had received no offers from England, but whether that was in response to offers from the English national side or from clubs in England was never really clear. Surely this was good news; perhaps the links to him weren’t as strong as had been feared. But shortly afterwards, and from various sources, came reports that he’d not just been asked about the Liverpool job, but had been made a “detailed offer”.

And this was the headlines Rafa had to face on the morning of the Middlesbrough game. Reporters contacted Liverpool the night before this game to ask them for a comment on the claims that this offer had been made. The club declined. No denial, and let’s face it, being asked directly about something like this, how difficult would it be to deny if it had not been true? No denial - even when asked - strongly implies that the owners had offered Klinsmann the job. How is Rafa expected to work under these conditions? Or is that the idea? If he walks, they’ll save £6m in compensation. What isn’t clear is how recently Klinsmann turned down this offer, or who might be next on the list. But this offer was known about for some time, and the link wasn’t going away. The only way it would was if Klinsmann refused the offer, and it looks like a life under Laurel and Hardy did not appeal to the German that was hardly well-liked at Anfield anyway.

More reports in the Sunday papers following on from the Middlesbrough defeat suggested Liverpool were again on the verge of being taken over by DIC. The new owners can’t - according to most reports - get the finance on the terms they want. They don’t want to put a penny of their own money into the club or its purchase - they want it all to be financed by loans that are secured on the club. The club will pay the interest on the loan, as well as paying it back. At least one of the two owners refuses to put down what is effectively a deposit on that loan.

It seems that the owners are becoming resigned to having to give the club up, but they are fighting to do this and still come out with a profit. DIC don’t want to take the club over just to make the two Americans richer though, and won’t pay a silly price for the club. They’ll have to pay more than they planned to a year ago, but the feeling is growing that they are willing to do this. Whether their plans would include extra funds for team building, and which of the four different stadium plans they’d most likely go for remains to be seen if their takeover happens. But Liverpool fans in the main would value honesty quite high in the list of requirement s from future owners, something the current duo seem to avoid quite often.

It’s also still possible that they’ll find a way to finance their loans. It may be that the final offers on the table from the banks are better for them than any final offer from DIC. Certainly they aren’t concerned about the future of the club, but if keeping the club is more profitable than selling it then they’ll not sell, assuming they can keep their personal risks to a minimum.

Unfortunately this uncertainty, added to their mistreatment of a manager who is still closer to winning the league than he should be - given the budget he has compared to his rivals - means that this season is fast becoming a write-off. Rafa’s love for club and the city is a genuine one, but faced with the threats he’s had, he must already be starting to come to terms with the idea of working somewhere else. A new manager would mean the start of another four to five years of rebuilding, as Rafa’s players are replaced by the new mans’ players, and with little extra funding in place to improve on his squad. But the owners have already lost the support of the fans, and that’s something they’ll struggle to win back. Fans will expect any new manager to do markedly better than Rafa, and to do it at speed. There’ll be no patience from supporters for five-year plans, not if Rafa leaves under these circumstances.

Just recently Rafa has been getting more criticism from those fans who take pleasure in complaining, and those fans who always expect instant success. But now more of the fair-minded fans have started to join in too, feeling they’ve now seen the light they saw when Gerard Houllier’s reign was coming to an end. But in reality Rafa is still improving, even if not as fast as they’d like. The last four games have been drawn, but the last two of those came under some of the darkest of those black clouds the club has been sitting under of late. Yesterday’s draw wasn’t the end of the world, and wasn’t a bad result at all considering the stories in the press that morning. Liverpool moved up a place to fourth, and are no further from the top than they were that morning. An opportunity was missed to close the gap, but the gap remains 12 points with a game in hand.

The owners wanted Rafa out before a ball had even been kicked this season. They made offers to coaches who had never managed at club level. They promised a stadium they couldn’t afford, and they now want out, taking a profit with them. Their takeover saw shareholders paid around £1000 more per share than they would have under DIC. The owners didn’t pay that. The loan did. They never took a great risk themselves, and are now fighting to make sure there’s no risk whatsoever on their own assets. All of those thousand pounds per share came out of those loans. They’re now trying to sell the club for a profit, and selling it at £500m should ensure that. And all that without putting a penny of their own money in.

What’s important now is that supporters don’t lose sight of how close Rafa has been getting to winning things. He wasn’t supported financially in the summer in the way he expected to be, and has been treated like something Hicks stood in on his Dallas ranch for most of this season. He deserves better, and it’s important he gets the support of the fans, even through these bad times, until the owners finally accept they are the ones we want to see the back of. If their first-choice replacement was Jurgen Klinsmann, failed national coach who played all his competitive fixtures at home, and has never managed a club anywhere, imagine how poor their second or third choice might be.

Support the manager, give him some time, and don’t let the owners hound him out.

Oh, and I think we'll hear and see the support that Rafa has from the fans at tomorrow's match. 

Good post Kin.

I agree

 :goodpost:

The Liverpool philosophy has always been to give the manager time to produce a Title winning team.
Benitez is moving the team in the right direction. Patience is the key here, but i fear that the American owners will either kick him out, or force him to walk.

i had high hopes at the start of the season we played such good football, its so frustrating watching great players like alonso and rise living on there reputation but i know we cant panic, we have a lot of skill in the squad we have now, just a few signings at the back and we are there, the new owners have  created an awful atmosphere at liverpool trying to be clever, i think benitez loves being Liverpool's manager and his family are settled on merseyside so he held out the olive branch to try to make things work with the hicks and gillette, they have accepted the olive branch and things have improved they say but we all know things are not right, i can only think this affecting the team on the field..like everyone else i am disappointed another promising season is slipping away and i am loosing confidence in a few players, but its important not to over react  and i just remind myself all they need is confidence and this could be a great team, as usual though all the stirring the first chance they can get by the press and the media have only made things worse,as far as benitez being hounded for his rotation system, i was never for or against it but 1 thing i always thought rotating systems are not about september and october there about the end of the season,we have the set up now just dont panic and throw it all away, even if hicks and gillette are only in it for the money they should still publicly back benitez  more  than they have done clearing up all doubt on his future for the next 2 years and trust him to do a good job backing his judgement  this may let the club start thinking about only playing good football

Agent Rafa your job is almost complete... stop ... please ensure Liverpool finish 6th behind Everton and Man City...stop.... ps flatter to deceive tonight and spank in 5 then lose to Aston Villa and West Ham ... stop... we want you back in our restaurant we have missed you... stop

LOL...

Betting suspended on him leaving, gone by sunday apparently...

Do you know why these rumours have started?

Probably just because of the contract talks palava, people putting two and two together.  Someones probably seen him chatting to the Real president last night and spread the word!

Dalgleish 3/1 fave, not having that!!

It's because he's ignored the deadline with regards to his contract talks (and is instead focusing on the games coming up).  So, how much truth there is in the rumours is dependent on his reasons (and/or the club's) for not meeting this deadline. Is he just focusing on the task at hand, or is there more to it than that?

20s into even money in a few days and then betting suspended with Willy Hill?..someone must know something and Rafa can only be buying time at the moment IMO.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

done himself a favour tonight

By all accounts within Anfield this is total bollocks. My guess is he'll sign a new contract within the next week.

His interview on Spanish TV was fairly conclusive in terms of him staying.

Well done on the win BTW.

Wonder how Rick Parry leaving will affect things.

Rafa gets total control and signs his contract. Stops signing players for 20mil and selling them 6 months later just to prove a point that the he should have been able to sign the midfielder he really wanted.

It depends what it means in terms of Hicks and Gillet as well.  All interesting stuff, but it looks like the rumour mongerers got the wrong man!

Rafa didn't sign Keane.

CYP - It's a change not certain it's a fix
I don't know that for sure and can only speculate but alot of managers seem to only sign good players and another person in the makes the signings that don't work out.
Parry probably signed Dossena, Babel and Voronin too.

Rafa didn't sign Keane, and neither did he want him.  The signing was imposed on him by the board.  This is one of the reasons the contract negotiations have gone on for as long as they have.  Rafa does not sign players at Liverpool.

That's not strictly true. Rafa wanted Barry as a priority and Keane was his second choice for the summer but no one was to be signed before Barry. If the budget was not big enough for both then Keane wouldn't have happened in Rafa's eyes. Negotiations with Villa went on so long the board bought Keane in the interim (knowing the fans would love the signing after leaking the rumour) then told Rafa they couldn't afford Barry who only had one year left on his contract.

As you can imagine this pissed Rafa off no end - probably even more so now that it looks as though Vila will break the top 4 and Barry will stay.

Rafa basically draws up his list in order and leaves it to Parry to sort out the prices/contracts etc. Thank the lawd Parry is off. He was very clever at imposing his own will on things.

But make no mistake, Keane was on the list.

That's not what I heard - but fair enough.

A decent article from the Liverpool Echo, a little pro-Liverpool but its 'facts & figures' talk so doesnt lie...



''I've tried in the past, but the media misinformation continues to gather pace like some ill-founded rumour. It's dangerous, because it causes unjust criticism.
 
Let's make one thing clear: Liverpool have nowhere near the most expensive squad in the Premiership.
 
No. Where. Near.
 
Indeed, there are three clubs who have spent at least 50 per cent more on their current squad than Liverpool.
 
Shocked? Well, you should be if you believe what's spouted out on TV. But it's true. And one of the clubs is not a name you'd necessarily expect.
 
It doesn't help that some people – such as Jamie Redknapp last night – focus on Rafa's gross spend, rather than the net amount. Effectively, this means counting all the right-backs he's bought as one big outlay, rather than looking at how he's replaced one with another for roughly the same £2m fee.
 
Working with just the gross spend, you add the £2m of Josemi to the £2m value of Kromkamp (even though it was a swap), to the £2.6m paid for Arbeloa. But none of these players were at the club at the same time, and each was traded to get to the point where an outright success was secured, as happened with the final purchase.
 
So even though the total cost of getting Arbeloa was just the £2.6m paid, people will use a figure almost three times as high. That is illogical.
 
(Another note, Jamie: Liverpool have three right-backs on the books, not just one; but the promising Darby, like Arbeloa, was injured and Degen has had a first season ruined by various ailments. So it's wrong to criticise the manager for an unbalanced squad and playing a midfielder out of position when three right-backs are unavailable.)
 
It's like the housing market: you don't just go in and buy a mansion straight from school. (Okay, so maybe some footballers do, but not the normal people of this world. As someone stuck with renting, I'm speaking generally here!)
 
You start with an affordable house; you then use the money from selling that to buy your next property. Most people can only get to own a big house having traded their way up over a number of years.
 
Yet when someone asks how much you spent on your house, you don't add all the houses you've ever bought together, do you?
 
If you own a £220,000 house, you don't say £470,000 because you add the £90,000 starter home and the £160,000 step up. That would be moronic.
 
According to the excellent and reliable www.LFCHistory.net, Rafa's gross spend is approximately £188m, but his net spend is only £108m, given that around £80m has been recouped.
 
(I'd hazard a guess that a large proportion of the £108m net spend has also been recouped through Champions League progress rewards, particularly with the Reds being the top-ranked team based on his five-year tenure.)
 
So it's easy to pluck a figure of '£195m' from the air, live on air, and make it seem like that should make a team champions, or ultra-close challengers.
 
But it's only the cost of the current squad that counts. Because that's all a manager can choose from; he can't go back in time and select a player he sold in order to trade up, just as you can't just turn up to one of your old houses and let yourself in.
 
You simply cannot add Rafa having spent £5.8m on Sissoko to the £18m on Mascherano, because the two were never part of the same set-up; one was bought and sold for a profit, and as with a house, the money reinvested in a step-up. If Sissoko isn't bought and then sold, Mascherano probably doesn't arrive.
 
Is that really too tough to grasp?
 
From my own experience in writing 'Dynasty', I can attest that researching transfer fees is never easy, given the amount of undisclosed fees and various add-ons (for various things, like appearances, trophies won, national caps and the cultivation of unexpectedly daring hairstyles).
 
But taking each fee as the most a club has expect to pay when add-ons are activated, I've calculated the cost of the most expensive squads in the league, and listed them below.
 
(Note: while it's impossible to be 100 per cent accurate with the figures in the public domain, I'd say that overall it's at least 95 per cent of the true amount, and with rival teams I've actually been generous and excluded a couple of players whose cost just isn't listed anywhere I could find.)
 
The most expensive squads (excluding players out on long-term loan) are as follows:
 
Chelsea £207m
Manchester United £206m*
Spurs £188m
Manchester City £140m
Liverpool £127m
 
(*£226m if Carlos Tevez's deal made permanent, given that it is initially a unique two-year £10m agreement, and very different from 99.9 of transfer deals. Effectively United are winning games with a £30m player.)
 
So what does this tell us?
 
Let's start with the leaders. United's squad contains the most home-grown players, such as Giggs, Scholes, Neville, O'Shea, Brown and Fletcher, who all arrived for free.
 
So that shows that it is a long-established core supplemented by a lot of expensive signings added one by one to a unified collection. In other words, classic, spot-on building of a squad when already established at the very top.
 
But it shows that even if you work with the unfair use of Rafa's gross spend, it still doesn't match what Ferguson has spent on his current squad, let alone those who have been bought and sold for record fees in the past.
 
And this is utterly, utterly critical, and beyond the grasp of some people who cannot analyse things with common sense.
 
After all, what does it matter how much Rafa has spent since 2004 if Ferguson is currently fielding players like Ferdinand (£30m) and Ronaldo (£12.8m) who were bought before then?
 
Isn't Rafa – in the real world – competing with a team whose construction started well before he arrived?
 
Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.
 
After all, how much as Harry Redknapp spent since he took over at Spurs? I make it almost £50m. How much has Rafa spent since Harry Redknapp took over at Spurs? Nothing. But only a nutter would compare the two in this deeply skewed way.
 
Rafa has been in his job about five times as long as Harry, so you obviously wouldn't dare compare their teams. And yet Ferguson has been in his job about five times as long as Rafa, and yet the Spaniard is expected to have Liverpool as champions by now.
 
Chelsea and Spurs are actually the more interesting examples in many ways. I knew Spurs had spent a lot, but to have a current squad that cost almost £200m shocked me. Add together the cost of Bentley, Pavyluchenko, Palacios, Bale, Defoe, Bent, Keane and Modric and you more-or-less end up with the cost of Liverpool's entire squad.
 
I could be sarcastic – or media-style sensationalistic – and say that with that much spent, any manager should be able to win almost all of his matches, but it wouldn't be fair or logical. It's far more complex than that, and even a good manager like Redknapp has his work cut out.
 
Chelsea and Spurs have had seven managers between them since 2007. This means different men making expensive signings and ending up with a mixed squad. Based on expenditure, both of these clubs are massively underachieving this season. Almost certainly to blame for that is the hierarchy having itchy fingers when it comes to firing managers.
 
Of course, this analysis doesn't include wages, either. You don't get the very top players in the world without also having to pay them a king's ransom. Michael Ballack must be most expensive free transfer ever, with wages reported to be around £130,000 a week, or about £30m over five years. Again, Liverpool are no way near the highest payers, either.
 
So there you have it. By all means print it out and pass it around; 'pass it on', as the saying goes, including to those in the media who could do with reading it. By all means quibble over some of the finer details, as there is a tolerance of a few percent on the accuracy of the figures, but the overall gist is very much sound and robust.
 
Note: as all good schoolteachers tell you to do, my workings are there to see, and will be available to view on my website''

Honestly mate the Paul Tomkins column is the best Liverpool related column anywhere. Yes he's very pro Liverpool and can be a bit over optimistic at times, but the guy has research to back up his opinions.

To anyone who likes this article I'd suggest the Liverpool website and read the last 2-3 he's done in the articles archive.

He also did a points per pounds spent one in the summer which was interesting reading.

Best result of the week for Liverpool - Rafa signs his new deal.

I guess now we'll find out if he is good enough to win the league.

3rd quickest Liverpool manager to 100 league wins. He's got us closer to the title challenge than we've been for years.  We are feared in Europe in the CL.

Yes, he does make some strange decisions at times, but his record isn't bad at all.  Now he has time to build and consolidate.  We can attract a few more key players now as well hopefully and challenge even closer for the title next season.

LOL you have as much chance of winning the league next season as we have.


Sure, top 4 is almost gteed .... but you aint winning the league any time soon.

FYP

I think we have more chance than spurs.

surely even a spuds fan can see if gerrard and torres stay fit we'll go very close?

Man Utd, Chelsea ... then you, @rse and A.N other will be scrapping for third fourth & 5th ... and it will be the same for the next few years.

I am serious, I just dont think Benitez has what it takes to win a premier league .... Europe is different, but you drop far too many points against weak opposition to ever be serious title contenders.

Fair enough but idisagree. With those two fit we'll go very close. Chelsea need rebuilding, they're pretty old. Arsenal need time. We'll go close next season IMO.

You have the players to go close.

But your manager is terrible.

Klinnsmann would have been huge improvement.

Terrible? 

Third quickest Liverpool manager to get to 100 league wins, got us to be ranked No 1 in Europe in the CL.  Got us closer to the title challenge than we've been for years.

I'd like to know who's better than him out there who we could get to replace him?  Klinnsmann?  He's hardly proven as a manager is he?

I have to bite at this. You are on drugs!

A good weekend for the hub cap thieves has just got better.

3-0 up

LOL

5 of the best and still going - I was expecting a close game!

(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45591000/jpg/_45591012_gerrard466x260.jpg)

;tightend;

I loved the Villa fan's chant "One goal, We only want one, goal, we only want one goal...".

:D

Yep fair play to em....... That game kinda puts me off the idea if us signing Gareth Barry, what ya reckon Kin , would you have him in the summer?

He's better than Lucas.

Oh fo sho, but would you pay 18mill to have him as a back up squad sort of a player ?

We need someone as back up for when Alonso or Mascherano are injured or suspended.  Lucas just isn't quite up to it.  Would Barry want to be a second-choice player is the question? 

Hmm Dunno, but i guess it would give us nice strength in depth to have Barry, Alonso and masch fighting for 2 slots at least i wont have to get real nervous when i check the team sheet before a match praying that Lucas hasn't got the nod to start.

Barry would also play a fair few away games on the left side instead of Riera when he wants to be a bit more defensive...

Yep Fair point, well made

Attack is the best form of defence :D

My timing with a "Rafa is crap" post was awesome, but I still think he is.

He wanted to sell Alonso in the off season. He was virtually an Arsenal player.

With the talent available, he should have won a Prem title by now. Liverpool have the best striker, the best midfielder and the best defence in the Premiership.

He has bought more duds than I get in my box of fireworks on November 5th.

He drops/rests players at the most ridiculous times.

They are inflexible tactics wise. They are set up to play against good attacking teams. They are brilliant on the counter attack. But time and time again they proved unable to break down teams that "park the bus".

Found a list of players Rafa has bought:

Josemi £2m  - WHO?
Antonio Nunez £2m - WHO?
Xabi Alonso £10.7m - Money well spent.
Luis Garcia £6m - £6 mill for one important goal..hmmm
Mauricio Pellegrino Free - PAST IT
Fernando Morientes £6.5m - BUST
Scott Carson £750,000 - FAIR GAMBLE
Antonio Baragan Compensation fee - WHO?
Jose Reina £6m - good buy
Mohammed Sissoko £5.6m - LOL
Boudewijn Zenden Free - LOL
Peter Crouch £7m - didn't fit in
Jack Hobbs £750,000 - better at cricket
Godwin Anti Free - ??
Miquel Roque Free - ??
Jan Kromkamp Swop for Josemi - RUBBISH
Paul Anderson Swop for John Welsh - ??
Daniel Agger £5.8m - ok
Craig Bellamy £6m - great for team spirit
Gabriel Paletta £2m - 3 Games in 3 seasons
Mark Gonzalez £4.5m - RUBBISH
Fabio Aurelio Free
Jermaine Pennant £6.7m -USELESS
Dirk Kuyt £9m - OVERPRICED DONK
Alvaro Arbeloa £2.64m - good buy
Andriy Voronin Free - USELESS
Lucas Leiva £6m - IF HE'S WORTH 6M, I MUST BE WORTH 7
Sebastien Leto £1.5m - NOT GOOD ENOUGH
Fernando Torres £20m -if you throw enough darts, one is bound to hit the bullseye i guiess
Yossi Benayoun £5m - ok
Ryan Babel £11m - OVERPRICED
Charles Itandje Free - overpriced at free

Kuyt's been one of the best and most consistent players in the Liverpool side over the past 24-months.  You obviously don't watch Liverpool play a lot.

A lot of the 'duds' were shipped out as soon as they didn't perform in the English league. 

You've missed Mascherano, Skrtel and Riera off that list.  But then again, they don't really help your cause do they?

He wouldn't get in the Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal or Aston Villa team.

He's hard working and a good team player, but as he was bought to score goals, he has palpably failed.

It doesn't matter what he was brought in as.  He's not playing as a forward, and as a right-sided midfield player he's been excellent for us.

and Keane

Camel i dont understand what that list is supposed to prove, you go through every top managers buys and you will always find  a few shitters.

If anyones to blame its Rick Parry cos hes been too slow to buy quality players when theyve become available (Vidic and Alves being two).
Xabi Alonos is one of the best playmakers in world football, so hes an absolute bargain at 10.7mil
Reina breaking records left right and centre so 6 mil another snip.
Sissoko did well for his while he was with us so more than happy what we paid for him and we got our money back when we shipped him back to juve.
Crouch was immense for us, he only didnt fit in once the best striker in the world joined us. Thats not Crouch's fault Rafa prefers the one man up front so it was obv gonna be Torres.
Putting OK next to Aggers taking the piss. If you can pick centre halves of the calibre of Agger for 5.8mil then you must be doing something right! The fact that Skirtel has been so good since hes been in the side is just unlucky for Agger.
Aurelio is one of the best left backs in the league, ok for a free.
Kuyt's scored quiet a few important goals, ill tell u what id rather have Kuyt in my team than a lazy twat like Berbatov when its time to grind out results at the end of the season. Hes deffo not an overpriced donk. He might not be my favourite liverpool player, but hes an integral part of our team.
Torres 20 mil, cheap for the best striker in the world.
Babel equals quality and hes another one who is unlucky with Rafas tactic of playing just one u front, cos he is a striker not a winger.

If he was crap he wouldnt have won the spanish league twice, champions league, uefa cup, fa cup.

In Rafa we trust.

That is all.

The players he inherited + Torres, Liverpool should have won the Premiership by now.

Instead they haven't remotely looked like winning it until the past week.

The reason is Rafa Benitez.

Don't really want to argue one war or another but i think for any one off game Rafa may be the best manager in the world. However i do believe he is still learning what it takes to win the league here. As the squad improves each year then maybe his rotating wouldn't make as much difference.

Why should they have won the Premiership by now?

Why should they be expected to beat Man U and Chelsea who have spent considerably more on players than Liverpool?

Ferguson rotates as much as Rafa does.  He can get away with it, as he has a much stronger squad.  He had numerous £20M+ players on the bench, never mind who's in the starting XI.

Rafa is building his side, his squad.  I still think he's 3 or 4 players short of what he wants - hopefully he'll be able to get this sorted in the summer. 

Hasn't it been proved that Liverpool and United have spent pretty much the same over the last 5 years?

No it certainly hasn't.  Nowhere near.  I'll get the figures for the net spend, and Man U and Chelsea have spent far more than Liverpool.

In fact, did you read Dwayne's post on this thread?

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=30452.msg913929;topicseen#msg913929

I heard the net spend was only 3mil more spent by united and 70mil more spent by chelski?

Was that from George down at the pub who read it in the s*n?

Berbatov
Tevez
Carrick
Hargreaves
Rooney

That's 5 players who were bought in the last 5 years (there are obviously more).  How much did those 5 cost?

Don't get on your high horse mate, just saying what i've heard, and with question marks as i was unsure

You originally said:


That's more than 'I just thought', or 'I heard that'.

So do you want to fill in the prices for those 5 players - and then compare them to the ten most expensive signings in the Liverpool squad?

So that doesn't come across as asking a question?

To be honest, i couldn't really give a fuck

Bit out of line here Kin.

I know you're more defensive than Rafa, but Jim only passed an innocent comment.

Everyone outside Merseyside knows Rafa is crap, and perhaps after another 5 years without winning the Premiership Liverpool fans will come to that conclusion too.

Yes you could. 

Someone posts that something has been 'proved', doesn't post anything to back it up and just tries to perpetuate a myth that has been propagated by some parts of the media - I'll argue that he was out of line.  The comment wasn't innocent.  These aren't personal attacks, we're just putting forward our views and I always like facts and evidence to back up an opinion.  If the evidence isn't there, then why not?  We should investigate further and see if the assertions are accurate or not.  In this case there weren't.

More defensive than Rafa - LOL.  13 goals in the last 3 games against Real Madrid, Man U and Villa.  Not bad for a defensive side ;).

You really do live in your own little world don't ya?!

He did put a question mark after his statement, which suggests he didn't KNOW it was a fact.

I thought i was going mad, i think something, post it and somehow comes out as something totally different?

Thank you for clearing up my sanity Kieth

I don't think there's many managers better than benitez,he's the best manager in champs lge games this is undoubtable imo,as for the prem on paper liverpool have never had the best team in the league in all the time he's been here some of his buys may have been questionable but since none have been for vast amounts of money and players such as agger/sissoko/torres/reina to name a few are all worth probably double what they paid (obv sissoko gone they got 11mil for him i think) then i think he's bought well.Gl to liverpool hope you win league but don't think you will.

But wtf do i know i'm a toon fan sigh, fuk our lives

You asked if it had been proved.  I said it hadn't. 

Anyway, I won't discuss matters Liverpool with you any more in the future, as you don't want a discussion - you want to make statements (and disguise them with a question mark) based on falsehoods.

Believe what you want.

L O fucking L

You are one of a kind Kin

Torres
Gerrard
Carragher
Skrtel

All would get into most peoples Premiership XI. I doubt any other team would have 4 players in this team.

As for best manager in Chmapions League. I'll have Ferguson tyvm.

Erm Skrtel wudnt

+ Vidic Ferdinand Evra Ronaldo Rooney Berbatov Carrick Tevez would all start 90%+ for any other team in the country

All the big 4 have a good spine in the team it's the players around them and the squad that wins a league. Man u's squad is better than any other team in the world by quite a way imo

lol at the best manager discussion that always comes up.

Benitez has done a grand job at Liverpool. Ferguson is by far the most successful manager out there ATM, something other managers can only aspire to. Wenger is the best manager for bringing youngsters through but seems to be hooked on this. Hiddink is top class as well, as was Mourinho...Martin O'Neill has done an amazing job at Villa and David Moyes is doing superbly well at Everton.
All these guys have different skills, overall though Ferguson is miles ahead of the rest ATM.

That's why I love living in Scotland...Scottish footie supporters never have silly ideas about their teams.

Don't think anyone suggested benitez is best manager in world  quite clearly overall fergie pwns all,in cl tho he hasn't done that great with the players he's had

Other than win it twice?

2 out of 17(ish?) attempts is average.  Fergie says so himself.

Thanks Jim, best leave it there now yes?

Yep

JIM !!!

Boshi put a ? at the end of his sentence, I think that means he wasnt asking a question and he wants to fight you .... at least thats what I think it means ... im fkin confoooooooosed :D

:)

kev, have you done something to the water supply in the mods' room? the rest of them seem to have flipped

i think it came from Fergie. He said he was surprised to hear Rafa say that United had spent more then Liverpool and asked somebody at United to do the figures on net spend and there was little difference (2.5mil i think).
I will now try and find the link so that we it can be discussed.

Tell me about it .... ever since tikay banned custard creams the mood has changed !!


I would join in, but im saving all my energy for my bum wash :)

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11667_5079979,00.html (http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11667_5079979,00.html)

Liverpool spent £24mil more in total. United £2.5mil higher net spend.

Is there a special reward for having the best manager?!! All this want want want, trophies, signings etc!!!!

All I want is to see my team string 5 or six passes together and have a crack at goal, do some decent running, put in the odd tackle and look like they care. Same game, diifferent world!

Wow, just got back from 5 a side (i pinged in a screamer btw) and the shits hit the fan! It all started cos camel said Rafa's crap. Something which i think is full of shit and said so. Its obvious hes best the manager in the CL, were the number one ranked team in europe since he took over. As far as best manager goes that's fergie hes record proves, but in my imo in the next 5 years rafa will come very close to that tag if not actually take over.

United and Chelsea have a better squad than us which is FACT! BUT our first eleven is brilliant.

I feel for you rook, Newcastle have always been my second fave team. Its like once you go behind everyones head drops. I jus cant imagine you lot in the championship, ah well at least youll have a derby with the boro!  ;)

Grats on the screamer ...

by the way, I said I didnt think Benitez would ever win a premier league because of his rotation shit, and the fact that Liverpool drop too many points against weak opposition ... his tactical and game knowledge is soooooooo suited to European football and not bolton or stoke on a wet wednesday in november.

I wouldnt say he is a crap manager, but i stand by my opinion that he doesnt have what it takes to win a premier campaign.

Fookin hell. Whats Jane putting in the mods tea's at the moment?

BTW, Jane.. Please dont go mad at me coz you think I am saying you make the teas because you are female... Obv I'm saying it because, errr, Kev said you do!

2 Champions Leagues in 23 odd years with some of the squads he's had over the years? Didnt know how to go away from home and grind out a result before last season? Wouldnt be my choice outside of English football. The two years he won it he had by far the best sides. He's never done a Mourinho/Capello/Benitez/Del Bosque and won it without the very best side.

This is far, far more accurate and statistically provable than Benitez is crap.

A bit biased but you get the point. Paul Tompkins this week on LFC.tv - comparisonaments?:

Thankfully, most media outlets seem to have seen the massive inaccuracy in Alex Ferguson's figures relating to Liverpool's spending. 


That he should even choose to come out with such figures in the first place is interesting, given his rather undignified reaction to Rafa's 'fact' press conference a couple of months back.
 
I'm also still smiling over his 'we were the better side' comments following their total humiliation last week, which every neutral I've spoken to found hilarious. That United played so well was obviously the reason Old Trafford was so empty in the last 10 minutes. He's also had a pop by excluding Rafa's name from the best managers in the league, which seems a bit childish for a pensioner.
 
You can't argue with Ferguson's success as a manager, but you can with some of the things he says.
 
This season may be a learning curve for Liverpool, with the league United's to lose even before their two main rivals were drawn against each other in the Champions League (which yet means the teams aspiring to catch United play each other in titanic, exhausting battles, as seen with Chelsea and Arsenal facing Liverpool last season while United get the easy draw.)
 
But the United manager is clearly worried, particularly as stability has been put in place at Anfield regarding the manager's future.
 
That the United manager should already be talking about Liverpool's future spending is fascinating. Why do so, unless he's worried?
 
Ferguson talks about the young players United have signed, and bizarrely says that Rafa, a man who started out in youth development, does things differently.
 
Perhaps Torres, Reina, Alonso, Mascherano, Agger, Lucas, Babel and Skrtel weren't all young players – aged 20-23 – when Rafa signed them after all, and all the teenage talent brought to the club, including Insua, Nemeth, Pacheco, Plessis and Ngog, is just a mirage?
 
How many players in their 30s has Rafa brought to the club? I can't think of one before or after Pellegrino, at 33, in 2005. Nor one as old as Henrik Larsson or Edwin van der Sar.
 
Robbie Keane was the oldest major signing Benítez has made, and perhaps the fact that he turns 29 this summer was why he was shipped out so quickly; at that age, if it doesn't look like it's working, you can't bide your time, particularly if a good offer comes in before the age-related depreciation takes place.
 
But the major flaw in Ferguson's argument is the fact that he already had half of his squad in place in 2004 when Rafa arrived.
 
He hasn't needed to rebuild an entire squad from scratch, merely add the £15m-£30m adornments. Rafa has clearly had to deal in quantity to cover all positions, but Ferguson has had the luxury of looking solely at quality.
 
So the two situations are poles apart. Ferguson had already spent big on players like Rio Ferdinand before Rafa pitched up.
 
He already had the players who emerged because of his youth system, which took almost seven years to bear fruit beyond one player (Giggs emerged in year five). Benítez would only be at that stage in 2011.
 
Indeed, if you add together every single player Rafa has bought (and there have been around 60, many of whom were mere kids), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.
 
Even if you also add the cost of those players Rafa inherited who are still at the club (and there are just three), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.
 
Including players out on loan (but not the full Tevez fee due this summer), United's squad costs over £215m, compared with Liverpool's £134m.
 
Let me remind you of what I said a few weeks back:
 
“Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.”
 
Benítez is trying to overturn an established superpower, one that still has a dozen-or-so players who predate his arrival in England. Rafa has just three who were good enough and young enough to endure (not that Hyypia was young, but like Giggs he is evergreen).
 
As well as buy players, Rafa has had to change the culture of the club to fit in with his ideas, as all managers do; Ferguson did that 20 years ago. It's why it took him so long to win the title, as you cannot change things overnight.
 
Unless Benítez was going to try and compete for honours with the likes of Diao, Cheyrou, and Diouf, or players like Smicer, Dudek, Hamann and Henchoz, who are now all in their mid-30s (and therefore had a very short shelf-life), or injury-prone stars like Harry Kewell, Liverpool needed a fairly complete overhaul.
 
Particularly as Owen and Heskey had left, and Djibril Cissé was about to arrive, all of which had been pretty much decided before Rafa took the job. (Also, including Cissé as a Benítez signing only further skews the figures.)
 
So the inaccuracies are clear for all to see. But let's switch things a little.
 
How did Ferguson overtake Liverpool? The situation was very similar to that now, even if it was a long time ago now.
 
Remember, both Ferguson and Benítez arrived aged 44, and inherited squads that had averaged 4th over the previous four seasons, and finished 4th the season before they arrived. All the fours, then!
 
Each had a massive burden of expectation, brought about by a desperately long wait for the title. Alex Ferguson's average league position in his first five seasons at United was 8.6 (11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, and 6th). Benítez's, if Liverpool finish only 3rd this season, will be 3.6.
 
But Ferguson faced in Liverpool in the '80s an established team with a top-class manager. He couldn't get close to Dalglish during their time in the respective dugouts.
 
Ferguson spent more money between 1986 and February 1991 (£12.8m gross, £9.87m net) than Dalglish managed in his six seasons (£12.5m gross, but only £5.77m net), but got nowhere near to toppling the Reds in that time.
 
So United's net spend was virtually twice that of Liverpool, and yet Ferguson still didn't trouble Dalglish. The money Ferguson spent wisely in the late '80s on players like Ince, Pallister, Hughes and Bruce took four years to have any effect on the league title. This is only Torres and Mascherano's second season.
 
So why did Ferguson spend so much more than Dalglish?
 
Well, Dalglish (like Ferguson in 2004) had a lot of his squad already in place.
 
Grobbelaar, Hansen, McMahon, Whelan and Nicol all spanned the entire period when Dalglish and Ferguson managed the two English superpowers.
 
(Liverpool raised £3.2m from selling Ian Rush in 1987, but the Reds also spend almost as much to bring him back a year later.)
 
Those men formed the heart of Dalglish's Liverpool.
 
They were five players who didn't need to be signed between 1986 and 1991; the kind of quality that could cost a king's ransom if they hadn't already been snapped up before at the top of their powers.
 
Ian Rush, the sixth name, also had a Liverpool connection which meant that although he needed to be re-signed, it was a relatively easy deal because of his time at Anfield.
 
Of course, Rush's initial departure led to the greatest influx of talent seen under Dalglish: the wonderful quartet of Aldridge, Beardsley, Barnes and Houghton. So Dalglish was partly 'blessed' in that Rush, whom he inherited, at least raised enough money to rebuild the attack upon his transfer.
 
Ferguson has enjoyed similar bonuses more recently: selling his best players for big fees as they approached their 30s (such as Stam, Beckham and Van Nistelrooy). Such sales now help keep Ferguson's net spend down, but in his first five years he couldn't get such impressive sums for Ron Atkinson's flops. So his net spend was very high for the times.
 
Again, make the comparison with Benítez and the likes of Diao and Cheyrou, who raised nothing.
 
Benítez never had such a luxury. Owen's value wasn't great due to his contract situation, leaving £10m less coming in. The only seriously saleable asset was Steven Gerrard.
 
The biggest profits Rafa has made have been on players he himself bought: Crouch, Bellamy, Sissoko. Of course, he hasn't been in the job long enough to sell his real gems, in the way Ferguson and Wenger (with Henry and Vieira) have picked the perfect time to cash in on world-class players aged 29/30/31.
 
If Rafa wanted to sell Torres he could make a massive profit, but thankfully the striker still has five years before he even reaches 30. So it's not relevant. Ideally, Torres would score loads of goals, win Liverpool titles, and return to his beloved Atletico no earlier than 2014 for a big fee.
 
Therefore you cannot ignore the way Ferguson overcame Liverpool – not by spending more, but by spending twice the amount.
 
So there you have it. It took the resignation of Dalglish to open the way for Ferguson, who had spent twice as much money but only averaged 9th place between 1986 and 1991. No wonder United fans wanted him out in 1990. But it just goes to show how difficult it is to overtake a side that already has the momentum, but that the best managers get there in the end.
 
If Ferguson is thinking back to how he did so, then no wonder he's feeling worried.
 

Thank you kev.

Amazing how the likes of "Jack Hobbs £750,000 - better at cricket, Godwin Anti Free - ?? and Miquel Roque Free - ??" make it to the list but the best of the youth team, Nemeth, Insua, El Zhar, Pacheco aren't mentioned either, when it's obvious they'll do well in future.

I'm not saying you drew this list up Keith but someone had fun trying to wind Liverpool fans up by missing out some of the better buys.

That's like pointing to the tens of failed youth players Wenger has bought (most of whom we'll never have heard of), as well as Franny Jeffers, Pascal Cygan, Philipe Senderos and Richard Wright and saying his signings aren't working when the team is clearly way better than it was when it was inherited. I dont even know how this list can be classed as any sort of proof of anything.

Let's put it another way. Ferguson and Benitez up until two years ago when the yanks arrived, had budgets that were miles apart. (Even now they are not on the same level but leave that aside for a mo) Now are you seriously trying to tell me Ferguson's record at 3m-8m players is any better than Benitez's? At that price level you will get things wrong. That is a certainty. 30m world class players hardly go wrong BECAUSE they are world class. If Benitez had 60m would he have bought Pennant and Bellamy?

Kleberson, Jumbo-Jumbo, Barthez, Smith, Forlan, Blanc, May. Not to mention the 28.1m disaster that was Veron. I know Liverpool's mid-budget players weren't all successes but how many were sold for profit compared to that shocking list at Utd? Ferguson could afford to lose millions per player. Benitez couldn't (and hasn't). Ferguson's mid-price transfer record is not amazing by any means. His best players were/are either part of a ridiculously good youth team (which was mostly poached prior to the rules in place now I might add) or are £20-£30m players.

A little perspective when it come to mid-priced transfers methinks. At the budget level he had prior to last season I doubt Ferguson would have done any better than Benitez - it just too hit and miss with those budget restrictions. (Although Wenger has proven himself a cut above at this level) Risks have to be taken and it wont always work.

If you have a 20m budget for a whole summer and have an entire squad to rebuild (after Houllier's mess) how do you do it? (Spend 20m on one great player so that you don't make a mistake in the eyes of the public and your tranfer record stands up to scrutiny, or build a good squad first before a great one?) You obviously need to add quantity to the squad we had as well as buy players you can sell on for profit for future kittys. Again you see this type of squad building and trading up of ok/good players for better ones as BAD management?

Also if you take out Benitez's first 12-18 months in England (due to adapting to the style of football etc etc) his record gets immensely better.

Transfer talk aside we've gone from 5th and 37 points behind Chelsea in the league (2005) to still being in the race in late March and closer to the title than ever (2009) with all of the above restrictions and far less spent (net) than Utd or Chelsea. Not bad for a terrible manager eh?

"Underrated in England" would be a bit more accurate I think, but we're happy to let the media do their thing. The scousers generally hate most of the London based media anyway and in the end it doesn't matter what those outside the club believe.

I obviously didn't compile this list.. how could I, there were about 5 players I have never heard of!

And Robbie Keane wasn't on that list, if I had compiled it, he would have been top!

His man management of Keane was woeful in the extreme. Fergie or Wenger wouldn't have hung out a member of his squad out to dry in such a shameful manner.

Look, I haven't got an axe to grind. I dislike Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs alot more than Liverpool.

I just think with a different manager you would have had far more success over the last 5 years.

+1

Jane doesnt read this board ... its the only fkin place on blonde that i get to myself ;)

FYP

and Rooks, Kin has been Tea boy for a while now, keep with the times!

FML .... FMEL .... IWTDIAGF !!

I'm sure Jane could arrange that for you.

£1,000 for charity?

Only if he doesn't have to fill in a form first  :D

I have filled the bloody form in ... !!

thank christ for that  ;)

Lol Kev if you have been watching Liverpool this season you would know that Rafa has more or less scrapped the rotation policy we have played a very consistent XI all season.

[ ] You havent dropped points against sides who you should have murdered, rotation policy or not.

I dont get why supporters of football teams think that the sun shines out of their own manager's a**e all of the time.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion - my own personal opinion of Benitez is that he is a good manager, but he makes a hell of a lot of strange decisions that ultimately have proven to cost his team.  Maybe he has learnt from those mistakes, and maybe this will now be his time.
Ferguson made some massive decisions in his first few years and most of them worked- if they hadnt then he may have been sacked long before he was given the chance to show he was the best in the business.
A lot of Benitez's big decisions havent worked so far, but whats to say that that over time that wont change.

I really do wish that people would be a little more honest about their own teams and managers though.
I know Neil Warnock can be a tw*t, but i also know he is a very good manager.
The likes of Ferguson, Wenger, Benitez, Mourinho etc wouldnt be managing the clubs they do unless they were good managers, but some get luckier than others, and some learn from their mistakes better than others.

Ultimately you can only really judge how good a manager has been for your club once he has left and you can look back on what he has acheived over that amount of time with the given resources.

You cannot say that Benitez is a better manager than O'Neill or Moyes, because they havent been given the same amount of money to spend, but there is also nothing to prove that they could achieve great things with that money.

Lighten up people and stop taking every comment against your particular manager as a personal one.

Keith Burkinshaw was the most under rated manager in the last 30 years imo.

I think you'll find that is what most Liverpool fans also think.  Doesn't mean he's a shite manager though, or that we'd have already won the league with a different manager.

Kin, with a different manager over the last 5 years, you may have won the league, you may have won the double, but there is also the same possibility that you wouldnt have won the champions league and you may not have even made it.  No one knows what 'would' have happened with a different manager.

Question for Liverpool fans - 'if Benitez leaves at the end of his contract without winning the premiership, will you still speak so highly of him?'

They were slagging him earlier this season ... hypocrites, the lot of em ;)

Winning the league is the most important thing to Liverpool fans.  If he's in charge for say another 5 years and we don't win the league - the fans will be disappointed. However, if we're challenging and not 15 points off the title race come March each season, then it will be an improvement.  If he manages another European title, that will help to appease fans, but the league is the most important thing (imo) - followed very closely by Europe.

I've criticised him, and I still do.  He rotated too much when he didn't have the squad to do it effectively.  I criticise the players as well, but I try and base it all on what I've seen with my own eyes or heard from reliable sources.

I also agree that Warnock is a t**t ;).

So you admit that your comment about the alleged "rotation policy" was off the mark? You will be saying we lost points because of zonal marking from corners next!

Along with 99.9% of all football supporters

Rotation policy/team selection .... call it what you like, but just look through this board and look at all the posts from you Mickey's complaing about Rafa's starting 11.

PS. Kinboshi is worse than Ralph when it comes to being defensive about anyone daring to comment about his team... FACT !

I don't mind comments, I just like them to be backed up with some substance.

LOL the guy can't win. It's his fault for rotation or team selection even though the team we put out should have won anyway!

Let's face it. Some will damn him no matter what.

Disagree, he loves being the bad guy, thumbs up from me...

+1

Group hug everybody ! Some like Rafa some dont and that includes im sure both Liverpool fans and neutrals, no point arguing we will all agree to disagree.Howzat?

Good question. My answer is a simple no. You are judged on trophies.

But as you said about Moyes and O'Neill being potentially better than Rafa but not having to resources to prove it... the same will always apply to Liverpool and Rafa being compared to Ferguson/Mourinho. At the moment vs ManUre or Chelski we cant compete fairly in the transfer market, but this may possibly be true of Man City as well in the near future.

Fair enough, and I dont think you're sniping for shits and giggles, I just don't agree with most of what you said.

I also disagree about the hanging someone out to dry stuff.

Firstly Rafa has never said a bad word about Keane or blamed the guy for anything. Secondly both Ferguson and Wenger (although to a lesser extent) have acted far worse to members of their squad in the past. Some of whom were far more established and even fan favourites.

Even the most one eyed red must agree that Hiddink gave Rafa a coaching lesson tonight.

hahahahahahahaahah


WHO ARE YA, WHO ARE YA

We were beaten by the better team.  Playing like that, I wouldn't fancy anyone else against them - would you?

[  ] obviously means Rafa should go

Hiddink is a fantastic coach, set up Chelsea just right.

Player for player Liverpool would be slightly ahead of Chelscum imo.

Just watched the Barc/Bayern highlights. Might as well give Barca the cup now, playing the games is just a waste of time.

Yup, I had a bad feeling we'd go for it too much with the first leg at home. Hiddink got it bang on, especially his roles for Malouda and Kalou. The 5 man midfield totally bossed it.

As good as Chelsea were, and how outplayed we were in some areas, there were also unforced errors everywhere due to our own performance just not being good enough. That was my worst trip home from Anfield ever.

My worst was not actually a defeat, a 0-0 draw against Blackburn in 04/05 about 2 months after the 1-0 defeat against Burnley in FA cup, and about 2 months before the miracle comeback V Milan.  Thats the only occassion I can remember them being booed off at Anfield.  I think a lot of people really doubted Benitez around that time. They were awful, even Carra was copping loads 'trying' to play as an attacking right-back as I think they were down to 10 men.

Mine was the 0-0 against Birmingham.  It was shocking.

The magnitude of the occasion is what makes it my worst. It was SOOOOOOO loud before the game. How could the lads not be pumped as per the previous home ties Vs Chelsea at around this stage.

Yes, they played well, yes, they got their tactics right, yes sometimes you take your hat off and say gg. But the unforced errors all over the park turned it from "bad result" into "shocking night". As good as they were, we just didn't turn up.

Surely the people giving there opinion on the game on radio last night were paid to speak such crap,within a 2min taxi ride home one said rafa should do the decent thing and resign lol,another said he's shit manager and hasn't got a clue in europe, eh ? a know it's obviously not the true fans that ring up this crap bur still

I know just about every fan will think this about their own club and it's detractors, but I think the bias in the (London based) media regarding Liverpool and it's failings leads to this type of reaction on phone in shows etc. It's been this way since Mourinho left and they have no one else to try to wind up. Prior to this the media was lukewarm to Rafa.

Also the opinions of people apparently in the know like Paul Merson (!) and flat out Liverpool haters like Andy Gray dont help.

You then get people jumping on the squad rotation, zonal marking, "Liverpool have the most expensive squad", and "Rafa is crap" bandwagons without looking at the facts. IMHO these people just don't have a clue (or mostly do have a clue, but only about their own club) and will just always believe what is put in front of them.

we do still agree that when Kin is around Liverpool is shit and the US has 52 states though, right?

No, the machine said it had 51 states ::)

oh yeah...crappie machine..doesn't even know there's 52

True



Can't let this go unchallenged though - MotD with Hansen and Lawrenson's constant sniping at United and soft playing Liverpool's issues.

eg - the analysis of Mascherano's contribution on Saturday which included a 30yd run and two-footed lunge at a Blackburn defender was glossed over with a "not the bestof tackles". Had that been a player from any other team they would have shown it from every angle available and called for an FA review.

LOL - please refer to Wayne Rooney and ronaldo.

OK - if Rooney or Ronaldo had made that challenge.....

even Liverpool fans must have cringed at Hansen's casual comments on it surely?

Does anyone think there is more to the Agger contract saga?

I think everybody always cringes whenever Hansen makes a comment, no?

There has been in the past, but from what I'd heard it was all sorted now.

Yeah agree about those two. Lawrenson just spouts shite fullstop both (mainly) for and against LFC. He's renowned for bringing up rumours about the club on TV/in the press as though one of the players told him something worthwhile. He's a bit of a cock tbh. Definitely has his ego above all else.

Hansen is a bigtime fan though yes. Thompson on Soccer Saturday is worse though. At least Hansen knows when to critisise. In all honesty if I was sat next to Merson I'd probably be like Thommo though.

He's more or less said he wants assurances of a fair number of games which is something I dont think Rafa will give him, although he does want him to stay.

It will be an awful waste of talent if he goes, especially with Carra in his 30's. Skrtel/Agger would be the future without a doubt but I dont think Agger is patient enough for that.

'kin L, a reasonable scouser! Nice to meet you.
I'm moved towards wanting you to win 3-0 tonight - for a variety of reasons, not least the 20yrs on ..

I was talking about the off-field stuff.  That got him into trouble with the club and Rafa wasn't at all impressed.  But yes, we have to keep him at the club as he is Hansen-esque when he brings the ball out of defence although I don't remember Hansen having quite as good a left foot shot though!

Yeah I heard the rumours but you always get that in and around the club tbh. Could be true but could easily not be.

Rafa i love you but what the fuck do u see in lucas?

agreed i would of played Riera on the left and benayoun in the free role behind Torres

I think that's a "I dont give a fuck if we lose" line up.

I take that back. Wide men on the touchline will see us overrun in midfield again like at Anfield. We've gone like for like.

This made me piss 'em ...

From anon via text on 81111:  "After Saturday's goal, one must wonder what must Agger do... do do."

Just what us neutrals need

From the people who told me what they told me, I would bet Kev's right testicle that the rumours are 100% true.

Gutted.

Big respect to the cities of Nottingham and Sheffield as well as to David Moyes

Anyone see this:

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/09/04/17/SOCCER_Blackburn_Nightlead.html

Now, I'm not Rafa'a biggest fan, but perhaps if Blackburn had been a tad more competitive Rafa wouldn't have made any gestures for Big Sam to cry about.

Storm in a teacup imo.

this. Allardyce should look at his own team instead of whinging about the oppos manager.

Standard.

I dont see how that gesture can be gtd to mean what they think it does

It can if Sir Alex phones Big Sam and says

Did you see that gesture ? 

Are you gonna let him get away with that ?

Why don't you bring it up at your press conference, I'll do the same at mine.


Totally pathetic.

and I wouldnt put that past Fergie either

Imo the gesture was to do with the zonal marking bollox that was been talked about after the Chelski 1st Leg, so Torres gets a  header manages to breach the apparently impenetrable man to man marking system thus rafa has a little satisfied moment,

Obv i could be talking complete bollox , but it does emphasise the fact that no one really knows what he was doing so WTF are Sam and Fergie on about?

Typical end of season mind game bull shit!

Fat Sam should stop being fergie's puppet imo, very sad

Rumours going that Stevie G may miss the Arsenal game, could cause problems :(

Not great, but we've won games without him.  Obviously a better team with him in the side.

Im still not talking to you

Shame Blackburn lost today - would love to see them go down

Global Warming: Fergie say Rafa to blame

Whatever, girl friend.  Do I look bothered?

You will be when you come begging again

Like you'd say no.

Im not that desperate for money any more, actually after last nights cash game ..... maybe

[  ] I played that hand well.
[  ] I'm sorry for the binkage on the river.
[X] I wish I'd slowrolled you.

Only positive from that cash for me was going bust before someone slowrolled me :)

Big Sam is an idiot. It's no secret he doesn't like foreign managers. Maybe he's worried people will realise he's overrated if Blackburn go down.

I'm surprised Fergie has exposed his anger at Rafa though. He the psychological edge for months after Rafa's rant. Why bother doing this now? Everyone has seen through it as a stunt and thinks it's a bit daft so what was the point? Signs someone is cracking up? ;)

Nice to see Fergie fullly respecting his opponents today by playing his reserves.

What a load of ^*(% he came out with mid week.

[  ] Ferguson isn't a knob

Should be interesting team selection tonight seeing as Gerrard is out.

Benny Noon (as David Pleat calls him) should be brought in to play behind Torres imo. 

He may well play wide right and Kuyt up top with Torres

you mugs best win tonight !!

you mugs better win on saturday

If you win tonight, I will give Arry a bell and tell him to go for the win.

What a match!!  Boring, defensive Liverpool again...

Thats their fkin problem, they have no defence.

We have.  They got 4 assists today.

what a game again.

Fergie will be quite happy with that!

gg Liverpool

another great game but sadly 3 errors.

Great to trade though :)

LOL at Rafa over Barry.

moanquietly in your soup.

I'm glad he said it to be honest. He said what absolutely everyone thinks. Quality imho.

LOL - small club.