Beginning of the end for Rafa...

[maldini32]

Wow, just got back from 5 a side (i pinged in a screamer btw) and the shits hit the fan! It all started cos camel said Rafa's crap. Something which i think is full of shit and said so. Its obvious hes best the manager in the CL, were the number one ranked team in europe since he took over. As far as best manager goes that's fergie hes record proves, but in my imo in the next 5 years rafa will come very close to that tag if not actually take over.

United and Chelsea have a better squad than us which is FACT! BUT our first eleven is brilliant.

[maldini32]

Is there a special reward for having the best manager?!! All this want want want, trophies, signings etc!!!!

All I want is to see my team string 5 or six passes together and have a crack at goal, do some decent running, put in the odd tackle and look like they care. Same game, diifferent world!

I feel for you rook, Newcastle have always been my second fave team. Its like once you go behind everyones head drops. I jus cant imagine you lot in the championship, ah well at least youll have a derby with the boro! 

[Colchester Kev]

Grats on the screamer ...

by the way, I said I didnt think Benitez would ever win a premier league because of his rotation shit, and the fact that Liverpool drop too many points against weak opposition ... his tactical and game knowledge is soooooooo suited to European football and not bolton or stoke on a wet wednesday in november.

I wouldnt say he is a crap manager, but i stand by my opinion that he doesnt have what it takes to win a premier campaign.

[Rookie (Rodney)]

Fookin hell. Whats Jane putting in the mods tea's at the moment?

[Rookie (Rodney)]

BTW, Jane.. Please dont go mad at me coz you think I am saying you make the teas because you are female... Obv I'm saying it because, errr, Kev said you do!

[The Baron]

My timing with a "Rafa is crap" post was awesome, but I still think he is.

He wanted to sell Alonso in the off season. He was virtually an Arsenal player. Alonso was awful last season

With the talent available, he should have won a Prem title by now. Liverpool have the best striker, the best midfielder and the best defence in the Premiership. We've not had the best defence for the last two seasons. And the fact he's acquired this talent with his resources is a bad thing?

He has bought more duds than I get in my box of fireworks on November 5th. All quickly shipped out/replaced.

He drops/rests players at the most ridiculous times. Not very often when it's a big game.

They are inflexible tactics wise. They are set up to play against good attacking teams. They are brilliant on the counter attack. But time and time again they proved unable to break down teams that "park the bus". Tactics are Rafa's strongest value bar none IMO.

[The Baron]

Found a list of players Rafa has bought:

Josemi £2m  - WHO? Replaced for Krompkamp
Antonio Nunez £2m - WHO? Got as part of the Owen deal after Murphy left the club and sold on for 3m
Xabi Alonso £10.7m - Money well spent.
Luis Garcia £6m - £6 mill for one important goal..hmmm 5 goals the year we won the Champions League in that competition. Ask any Liverpool player/fan how they feel about this guy.
Mauricio Pellegrino Free - PAST IT Had Sami Hyypia in fear of his place, allowed him to be rested prior to European games and played the best season he's ever had being the cornerstone of our CL win. Only Plus 30 player he's ever brought to the club and is now a coach.
Fernando Morientes £6.5m - BUST Unfortunate - successful as a striker both before and after Liverpool
Scott Carson £750,000 - FAIR GAMBLE Paid £750,000 - made 7 million in total on him
Antonio Baragan Compensation fee - WHO? Sold for profit
Jose Reina £6m - good buy
Mohammed Sissoko £5.6m - LOL Sold for profit
Boudewijn Zenden Free - LOL Errr Free?
Peter Crouch £7m - didn't fit in Sold for Profit
Jack Hobbs £750,000 - better at cricket youth player
Godwin Anti Free - ?? youth player
Miquel Roque Free - ?? youth player
Jan Kromkamp Swop for Josemi - Sold for no loss on what we bought Josemi for
Paul Anderson Swop for John Welsh - ?? youth player
Daniel Agger £5.8m - ok Awesome talent
Craig Bellamy £6m - great for team spirit Sold for profit
Gabriel Paletta £2m - 3 Games in 3 seasons Sold for profit and used to bring Insua to the club
Mark Gonzalez £4.5m - RUBBISH Sold at slight loss not including loan fees
Fabio Aurelio Free
Jermaine Pennant £6.7m -USELESS Good player but a gamble as he's a bit of a twat
Dirk Kuyt £9m - OVERPRICED DONK Ummmm ok
Alvaro Arbeloa £2.64m - good buy
Andriy Voronin Free - USELESS Free? One of the top scorers in the Bundesliga - sure to be sold for a profit
Lucas Leiva £6m - IF HE'S WORTH 6M, I MUST BE WORTH 7 U20 Brazil Captain when he was bought - not worked out obviously
Sebastien Leto £1.5m - NOT GOOD ENOUGH Pants
Fernando Torres £20m -if you throw enough darts, one is bound to hit the bullseye i guiess Hahaha!
Yossi Benayoun £5m - ok
Ryan Babel £11m - OVERPRICED Potential but yes overpriced
Charles Itandje Free - overpriced at free I agree

[The Baron]

I don't think there's many managers better than benitez,he's the best manager in champs lge games this is undoubtable imo,as for the prem on paper liverpool have never had the best team in the league in all the time he's been here some of his buys may have been questionable but since none have been for vast amounts of money and players such as agger/sissoko/torres/reina to name a few are all worth probably double what they paid (obv sissoko gone they got 11mil for him i think) then i think he's bought well.Gl to liverpool hope you win league but don't think you will.

But wtf do i know i'm a toon fan sigh, fuk our lives

Torres
Gerrard
Carragher
Skrtel

All would get into most peoples Premiership XI. I doubt any other team would have 4 players in this team.

As for best manager in Chmapions League. I'll have Ferguson tyvm.

2 Champions Leagues in 23 odd years with some of the squads he's had over the years? Didnt know how to go away from home and grind out a result before last season? Wouldnt be my choice outside of English football. The two years he won it he had by far the best sides. He's never done a Mourinho/Capello/Benitez/Del Bosque and won it without the very best side.

[The Baron]

Grats on the screamer ...

by the way, I said I didnt think Benitez would ever win a premier league because of his rotation shit, and the fact that Liverpool drop too many points against weak opposition ... his tactical and game knowledge is soooooooo suited to European football and not bolton or stoke on a wet wednesday in november.

I wouldnt say he is a crap manager, but i stand by my opinion that he doesnt have what it takes to win a premier campaign.

This is far, far more accurate and statistically provable than Benitez is crap.

[The Baron]

A bit biased but you get the point. Paul Tompkins this week on LFC.tv - comparisonaments?:

Thankfully, most media outlets seem to have seen the massive inaccuracy in Alex Ferguson's figures relating to Liverpool's spending. 


That he should even choose to come out with such figures in the first place is interesting, given his rather undignified reaction to Rafa's 'fact' press conference a couple of months back.
 
I'm also still smiling over his 'we were the better side' comments following their total humiliation last week, which every neutral I've spoken to found hilarious. That United played so well was obviously the reason Old Trafford was so empty in the last 10 minutes. He's also had a pop by excluding Rafa's name from the best managers in the league, which seems a bit childish for a pensioner.
 
You can't argue with Ferguson's success as a manager, but you can with some of the things he says.
 
This season may be a learning curve for Liverpool, with the league United's to lose even before their two main rivals were drawn against each other in the Champions League (which yet means the teams aspiring to catch United play each other in titanic, exhausting battles, as seen with Chelsea and Arsenal facing Liverpool last season while United get the easy draw.)
 
But the United manager is clearly worried, particularly as stability has been put in place at Anfield regarding the manager's future.
 
That the United manager should already be talking about Liverpool's future spending is fascinating. Why do so, unless he's worried?
 
Ferguson talks about the young players United have signed, and bizarrely says that Rafa, a man who started out in youth development, does things differently.
 
Perhaps Torres, Reina, Alonso, Mascherano, Agger, Lucas, Babel and Skrtel weren't all young players – aged 20-23 – when Rafa signed them after all, and all the teenage talent brought to the club, including Insua, Nemeth, Pacheco, Plessis and Ngog, is just a mirage?
 
How many players in their 30s has Rafa brought to the club? I can't think of one before or after Pellegrino, at 33, in 2005. Nor one as old as Henrik Larsson or Edwin van der Sar.
 
Robbie Keane was the oldest major signing Benítez has made, and perhaps the fact that he turns 29 this summer was why he was shipped out so quickly; at that age, if it doesn't look like it's working, you can't bide your time, particularly if a good offer comes in before the age-related depreciation takes place.
 
But the major flaw in Ferguson's argument is the fact that he already had half of his squad in place in 2004 when Rafa arrived.
 
He hasn't needed to rebuild an entire squad from scratch, merely add the £15m-£30m adornments. Rafa has clearly had to deal in quantity to cover all positions, but Ferguson has had the luxury of looking solely at quality.
 
So the two situations are poles apart. Ferguson had already spent big on players like Rio Ferdinand before Rafa pitched up.
 
He already had the players who emerged because of his youth system, which took almost seven years to bear fruit beyond one player (Giggs emerged in year five). Benítez would only be at that stage in 2011.
 
Indeed, if you add together every single player Rafa has bought (and there have been around 60, many of whom were mere kids), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.
 
Even if you also add the cost of those players Rafa inherited who are still at the club (and there are just three), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.
 
Including players out on loan (but not the full Tevez fee due this summer), United's squad costs over £215m, compared with Liverpool's £134m.
 
Let me remind you of what I said a few weeks back:
 
“Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.”
 
Benítez is trying to overturn an established superpower, one that still has a dozen-or-so players who predate his arrival in England. Rafa has just three who were good enough and young enough to endure (not that Hyypia was young, but like Giggs he is evergreen).
 
As well as buy players, Rafa has had to change the culture of the club to fit in with his ideas, as all managers do; Ferguson did that 20 years ago. It's why it took him so long to win the title, as you cannot change things overnight.
 
Unless Benítez was going to try and compete for honours with the likes of Diao, Cheyrou, and Diouf, or players like Smicer, Dudek, Hamann and Henchoz, who are now all in their mid-30s (and therefore had a very short shelf-life), or injury-prone stars like Harry Kewell, Liverpool needed a fairly complete overhaul.
 
Particularly as Owen and Heskey had left, and Djibril Cissé was about to arrive, all of which had been pretty much decided before Rafa took the job. (Also, including Cissé as a Benítez signing only further skews the figures.)
 
So the inaccuracies are clear for all to see. But let's switch things a little.
 
How did Ferguson overtake Liverpool? The situation was very similar to that now, even if it was a long time ago now.
 
Remember, both Ferguson and Benítez arrived aged 44, and inherited squads that had averaged 4th over the previous four seasons, and finished 4th the season before they arrived. All the fours, then!
 
Each had a massive burden of expectation, brought about by a desperately long wait for the title. Alex Ferguson's average league position in his first five seasons at United was 8.6 (11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, and 6th). Benítez's, if Liverpool finish only 3rd this season, will be 3.6.
 
But Ferguson faced in Liverpool in the '80s an established team with a top-class manager. He couldn't get close to Dalglish during their time in the respective dugouts.
 
Ferguson spent more money between 1986 and February 1991 (£12.8m gross, £9.87m net) than Dalglish managed in his six seasons (£12.5m gross, but only £5.77m net), but got nowhere near to toppling the Reds in that time.
 
So United's net spend was virtually twice that of Liverpool, and yet Ferguson still didn't trouble Dalglish. The money Ferguson spent wisely in the late '80s on players like Ince, Pallister, Hughes and Bruce took four years to have any effect on the league title. This is only Torres and Mascherano's second season.
 
So why did Ferguson spend so much more than Dalglish?
 
Well, Dalglish (like Ferguson in 2004) had a lot of his squad already in place.
 
Grobbelaar, Hansen, McMahon, Whelan and Nicol all spanned the entire period when Dalglish and Ferguson managed the two English superpowers.
 
(Liverpool raised £3.2m from selling Ian Rush in 1987, but the Reds also spend almost as much to bring him back a year later.)
 
Those men formed the heart of Dalglish's Liverpool.
 
They were five players who didn't need to be signed between 1986 and 1991; the kind of quality that could cost a king's ransom if they hadn't already been snapped up before at the top of their powers.
 
Ian Rush, the sixth name, also had a Liverpool connection which meant that although he needed to be re-signed, it was a relatively easy deal because of his time at Anfield.
 
Of course, Rush's initial departure led to the greatest influx of talent seen under Dalglish: the wonderful quartet of Aldridge, Beardsley, Barnes and Houghton. So Dalglish was partly 'blessed' in that Rush, whom he inherited, at least raised enough money to rebuild the attack upon his transfer.
 
Ferguson has enjoyed similar bonuses more recently: selling his best players for big fees as they approached their 30s (such as Stam, Beckham and Van Nistelrooy). Such sales now help keep Ferguson's net spend down, but in his first five years he couldn't get such impressive sums for Ron Atkinson's flops. So his net spend was very high for the times.
 
Again, make the comparison with Benítez and the likes of Diao and Cheyrou, who raised nothing.
 
Benítez never had such a luxury. Owen's value wasn't great due to his contract situation, leaving £10m less coming in. The only seriously saleable asset was Steven Gerrard.
 
The biggest profits Rafa has made have been on players he himself bought: Crouch, Bellamy, Sissoko. Of course, he hasn't been in the job long enough to sell his real gems, in the way Ferguson and Wenger (with Henry and Vieira) have picked the perfect time to cash in on world-class players aged 29/30/31.
 
If Rafa wanted to sell Torres he could make a massive profit, but thankfully the striker still has five years before he even reaches 30. So it's not relevant. Ideally, Torres would score loads of goals, win Liverpool titles, and return to his beloved Atletico no earlier than 2014 for a big fee.
 
Therefore you cannot ignore the way Ferguson overcame Liverpool – not by spending more, but by spending twice the amount.
 
So there you have it. It took the resignation of Dalglish to open the way for Ferguson, who had spent twice as much money but only averaged 9th place between 1986 and 1991. No wonder United fans wanted him out in 1990. But it just goes to show how difficult it is to overtake a side that already has the momentum, but that the best managers get there in the end.
 
If Ferguson is thinking back to how he did so, then no wonder he's feeling worried.
 

[maldini32]

Grats on the screamer ...

by the way, I said I didnt think Benitez would ever win a premier league because of his rotation shit, and the fact that Liverpool drop too many points against weak opposition ... his tactical and game knowledge is soooooooo suited to European football and not bolton or stoke on a wet wednesday in november.

I wouldnt say he is a crap manager, but i stand by my opinion that he doesnt have what it takes to win a premier campaign.

Thank you kev.

[The Baron]

Found a list of players Rafa has bought:

Josemi £2m  - WHO?
Antonio Nunez £2m - WHO?
Xabi Alonso £10.7m - Money well spent.
Luis Garcia £6m - £6 mill for one important goal..hmmm
Mauricio Pellegrino Free - PAST IT
Fernando Morientes £6.5m - BUST
Scott Carson £750,000 - FAIR GAMBLE
Antonio Baragan Compensation fee - WHO?
Jose Reina £6m - good buy
Mohammed Sissoko £5.6m - LOL
Boudewijn Zenden Free - LOL
Peter Crouch £7m - didn't fit in
Jack Hobbs £750,000 - better at cricket
Godwin Anti Free - ??
Miquel Roque Free - ??
Jan Kromkamp Swop for Josemi - RUBBISH
Paul Anderson Swop for John Welsh - ??
Daniel Agger £5.8m - ok
Craig Bellamy £6m - great for team spirit
Gabriel Paletta £2m - 3 Games in 3 seasons
Mark Gonzalez £4.5m - RUBBISH
Fabio Aurelio Free
Jermaine Pennant £6.7m -USELESS
Dirk Kuyt £9m - OVERPRICED DONK
Alvaro Arbeloa £2.64m - good buy
Andriy Voronin Free - USELESS
Lucas Leiva £6m - IF HE'S WORTH 6M, I MUST BE WORTH 7
Sebastien Leto £1.5m - NOT GOOD ENOUGH
Fernando Torres £20m -if you throw enough darts, one is bound to hit the bullseye i guiess
Yossi Benayoun £5m - ok
Ryan Babel £11m - OVERPRICED
Charles Itandje Free - overpriced at free

Kuyt's been one of the best and most consistent players in the Liverpool side over the past 24-months.  You obviously don't watch Liverpool play a lot.

A lot of the 'duds' were shipped out as soon as they didn't perform in the English league. 

You've missed Mascherano, Skrtel and Riera off that list.  But then again, they don't really help your cause do they?

Amazing how the likes of "Jack Hobbs £750,000 - better at cricket, Godwin Anti Free - ?? and Miquel Roque Free - ??" make it to the list but the best of the youth team, Nemeth, Insua, El Zhar, Pacheco aren't mentioned either, when it's obvious they'll do well in future.

I'm not saying you drew this list up Keith but someone had fun trying to wind Liverpool fans up by missing out some of the better buys.

That's like pointing to the tens of failed youth players Wenger has bought (most of whom we'll never have heard of), as well as Franny Jeffers, Pascal Cygan, Philipe Senderos and Richard Wright and saying his signings aren't working when the team is clearly way better than it was when it was inherited. I dont even know how this list can be classed as any sort of proof of anything.

Let's put it another way. Ferguson and Benitez up until two years ago when the yanks arrived, had budgets that were miles apart. (Even now they are not on the same level but leave that aside for a mo) Now are you seriously trying to tell me Ferguson's record at 3m-8m players is any better than Benitez's? At that price level you will get things wrong. That is a certainty. 30m world class players hardly go wrong BECAUSE they are world class. If Benitez had 60m would he have bought Pennant and Bellamy?

Kleberson, Jumbo-Jumbo, Barthez, Smith, Forlan, Blanc, May. Not to mention the 28.1m disaster that was Veron. I know Liverpool's mid-budget players weren't all successes but how many were sold for profit compared to that shocking list at Utd? Ferguson could afford to lose millions per player. Benitez couldn't (and hasn't). Ferguson's mid-price transfer record is not amazing by any means. His best players were/are either part of a ridiculously good youth team (which was mostly poached prior to the rules in place now I might add) or are £20-£30m players.

A little perspective when it come to mid-priced transfers methinks. At the budget level he had prior to last season I doubt Ferguson would have done any better than Benitez - it just too hit and miss with those budget restrictions. (Although Wenger has proven himself a cut above at this level) Risks have to be taken and it wont always work.

If you have a 20m budget for a whole summer and have an entire squad to rebuild (after Houllier's mess) how do you do it? (Spend 20m on one great player so that you don't make a mistake in the eyes of the public and your tranfer record stands up to scrutiny, or build a good squad first before a great one?) You obviously need to add quantity to the squad we had as well as buy players you can sell on for profit for future kittys. Again you see this type of squad building and trading up of ok/good players for better ones as BAD management?

Also if you take out Benitez's first 12-18 months in England (due to adapting to the style of football etc etc) his record gets immensely better.

Transfer talk aside we've gone from 5th and 37 points behind Chelsea in the league (2005) to still being in the race in late March and closer to the title than ever (2009) with all of the above restrictions and far less spent (net) than Utd or Chelsea. Not bad for a terrible manager eh?

"Underrated in England" would be a bit more accurate I think, but we're happy to let the media do their thing. The scousers generally hate most of the London based media anyway and in the end it doesn't matter what those outside the club believe.

[The Camel]

I obviously didn't compile this list.. how could I, there were about 5 players I have never heard of!

And Robbie Keane wasn't on that list, if I had compiled it, he would have been top!

His man management of Keane was woeful in the extreme. Fergie or Wenger wouldn't have hung out a member of his squad out to dry in such a shameful manner.

Look, I haven't got an axe to grind. I dislike Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs alot more than Liverpool.

I just think with a different manager you would have had far more success over the last 5 years.

[jizzemm]

in the end it doesn't matter what those outside the club believe.

+1

[Colchester Kev]

BTW, Jane.. Please dont go mad at me coz you think I am saying you make the teas because you are female... Obv I'm saying it because, errr, Kev said you do!

Jane doesnt read this board ... its the only fkin place on blonde that i get to myself