blonde poker forum

online sats to this? Or just live sats at the grosvenor casinos? (IOW will the Scots need to travel for a sattelite or can we play online?)

Did any of these flyers you so carefully read last night have the date the Grand Prix takes place?

Bit sick having rake in a rebuy, why add 25k then rake it? Why not just add nothing and have it juice free?

surely the rebuys in the sats aren't raked and Tony is just reffering to the ME? (I am guessing the ME is a freezeout)

surely the rebuys in the sats aren't raked and Tony is just reffering to the ME? (I am guessing the ME is a freezeout)

I dont agree with raking rebuys but lets be honest- grosvenor have done a lot for poker in the UK so we can't really fault them for taking a little back.

ok lets work on a 200k prizepool- they will be taking 10k in "rake" and adding 25k. A better way of doing this PR wise wouldve been to add 15k and charge no rake but the bean counters obviously didnt want to do this. Its still another "added money" event. As for gats thinking grosvenor do nothing for poker in the UK I would point him to the figures present at the GUKPT festivals- where else can you play on a monthly basis for a 300k+ prizepool? They add money to events and still get slated- they really can't win can they?

Not raking rebuys is a very very easy way not to get slated.

I think Gatso's point was that just because Grosvenor have done good stuff for poker in the UK in the past doesn't mean they should get let off raking rebuys.

If you caught a mate of yours in bed with your wife, and he says 'but I helped you fix your car last week' are you going to say 'fair enough'?

this

But they aren't raking the rebuys exactly.  The money that comes from the rebuy sats is what forms the pot for the ME.  There's no way they can just rake the original buyins because they won't make anywhere near enough money to cover their costs.  I know as players we don't want to be ripped off, but Grosvenor aren't a charity, they are a business.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Say I have 5 rebuys and dont qualify, then the money I've contributed will be raked at 5% but I haven't paid any juice on the satellite, so effectively I've paid no reg fee at all.

25k is being added. Way less than 25k will be raked. There is no reg fee. Disgraceful. I feel ashamed...

Say I have 5 rebuys and dont qualify, then the money I've contributed will be raked at 5% but I haven't paid any juice on the satellite, so effectively I've paid no reg fee at all.

You're very very wrong there.

Say there is a normal 50 +5 rebuy tourney (10% of the buy in is reg fee). now have 1 buy in and 4  rebuys and rake them all at 5% 250£ x 5% =  12.50.

see?

But they aren't raking the rebuys exactly.  The money that comes from the rebuy sats is what forms the pot for the ME.  There's no way they can just rake the original buyins because they won't make anywhere near enough money to cover their costs.  I know as players we don't want to be ripped off, but Grosvenor aren't a charity, they are a business.

I agree that if the added money wasn't there then it would be a complete joke.  I wouldn't want to see it done on tournaments without this amount of added money, but for this specific tournament I really don't see the problem.

SO we're worried about losing £7.50 in a tournament with 25k added money? What if I only have one rebuy, then I'm paying the standard £5, if I have no rebuys then I'm only paying £2.50. The disadvantage is if you have to have loads of rebuys...but it is still outweighed by the amount of money added.

you are right of course but don't tell me they are not raking the rebuys...really, It's the principle of the thing for me. Taking money directly out of the prizepool and advertising it as no rake (as discussed in another thread on the forum) is already dodgy..but to also rake rebuys?
Don't think that this will only happen in value added tourneys, this will spread once others see they can get away with it.

I don't doubt Mr Raab's intentions are honourable but this is a step on a very slippery slope and sooner or later poker player will get F'ed over.

And that is the exact & precise point.......

I have - sincerely - acknowledged, as have several others,  Grosvenor have added a "lovely" £25,000 to this Event.

What would be your view, then, if it were not for this Tourney, but a "non-added money" Tourney?

you are right of course but don't tell me they are not raking the rebuys...really, It's the principle of the thing for me. Taking money directly out of the prizepool and advertising it as no rake (as discussed in another thread on the forum) is already dodgy..but to also rake rebuys?
Don't think that this will only happen in value added tourneys, this will spread once others see they can get away with it.

I don't doubt Mr Raab's intentions are honourable but this is a step on a very slippery slope and sooner or later poker player will get F'ed over.

If it was a freezeout I would obviously be happy ;) this is less than the standard 10% juice (if it was kept at 5%) but for rebuys as a rule, no.



When I say that they are not raking the rebuys I mean that any player who plays a satellite and doesn't qualify hasn't had to pay any extra in juice, that's all.  They have effectively saved themselves £5 in juice.  But yes I agree that if this were to become the norm for other comps it would not be good.

When I say that they are not raking the rebuys I mean that any player who plays a satellite and doesn't qualify hasn't had to pay any extra in juice, that's all.  They have effectively saved themselves £5 in juice.  But yes I agree that if this were to become the norm for other comps it would not be good.

*faints*

We've been through all this on another thread.

If the £50 rebuys are raked at 5%, then you are actually playing a £45.24 + £4.76 tournament, so you are paying juice.

Don't say i haven't warned ya!

Yes I understand the long term concern, but not people objecting to it in this tournament specifically, which some have.  To be honest I can't see another way they can do it with this format.  They can't just charge £5 juice in the satellites because that would be the only income they had from all the satellites and the ME.  They can't charge juice on the ME because no one is buying in directly.  The only way it would be possible to do it is to split the money from the satellites into packages including juice, rather than saying the top 15% qualify.

It is being tested out. Whether it continues will depend on the reception it gets. It's not a disease that has suddenly spread to rebuys, as the GP is a one off event and the added money that BLUE SQUARE is adding ensures there is still value. I have little doubt that it wont be repeated if the players' reaction is bad.   Please note that anyone who criticises it will NOT be barred. It's a shame not all poker venues allow their customers the same level of freedom of speech.

Ignore it specifically in relation to this Tourney. Think long-term.

The only way it would be possible to do it is to split the money from the satellites into packages including juice, rather than saying the top 15% qualify.

The Grosvenor Grand Prix has been running, successfully, & with the huge support of players, as well as the Sponsors, as far as I can recall, for 8 or 9 years. Juice has always been raised by a Reg Fee on the initial Buy-In to the Qualifying Satellite.

I'm interested why that model is no longer deemed fair & reasonable.

I have little doubt that it wont be repeated if the players' reaction is bad.

The perfect answer, thanks. It's up to the players now, as simple as that!

It is being tested out. Whether it continues will depend on the reception it gets. It's not a disease that has suddenly spread to rebuys, as the GP is a one off event and the added money that BLUE SQUARE is adding ensures there is still value. I have little doubt that it wont be repeated if the players' reaction is bad.   Please note that anyone who criticises it will NOT be barred. It's a shame not all poker venues allow their customers the same level of freedom of speech.

I actually thinking about it don't see a problem with rake in a rebuy, i am happy to pay £20 juice on a £200 comp so why would i object in paying £10 in a £50r where the average buyin is 200.

I still get tilted by the swathes of people who can't figure out that rake and reg fee are the same.

One reason for doing it this way is because of the nature of the event. Sats are self deal. Final is dealer dealt. In previous years walsall did not make from it, due to having to pay for extra dealers but getting no fees for doing so. This way, walsall's costs get covered then the remainder gets split on a pro rata basis amongst all participating clubs.

Last year the guarantee was missed by a long way. Almost 70k. Bluesq coughed it up.

I like BlueSq a lot.

Had no intention of playing it but might spite play it now!

I like BlueSq a lot.

I will wait to see what Blackbeard has to say before i get too involved with thsi Blue Sq lot.

I think it's fair to say from the sounds of it that both Bsq and Grosvenor lost a lot of money on this tournament last year, maybe the reason for the change this year.  I'll be interested to see how it turns out, and at least we've been told that the players will be listened to on this matter.

You'd get mullered - it's Pot-Limit.......;)

i may have the wrong end of the stick, from reading the thread I understand that the re buys will be raked

so 5% of all re buys taken raked = £??

and from how the thread reads ( at least to me )

an additional 5% will be taken off the top of the main event prize pool

that if correct is blatant double raking, but i will say no more as i have a feeling i will be corrected.

In the USA they often rake the prize pool and charge a fee, not to mention the almost obligatory dealer bonus. Lovely little comps though...

No, that's 100% wrong Billy.

You pay £50 to buy-in to the Super-Sat, & £50 for each Rebuy. That's it. If that adds up in Total, to, say, £250,000, that's the total Prize Pool.*

But the Prize Pool is raked at 5%.

* = Plus the £25,000 added by Blue Square, which is not Raked.

To clear this up in my mind
 
1. Are the players paying a session charge to play in the super sats and the sats or is it a 5% rake on those.

2. Is there then a 5% rake on the main prize pool before the 25k is added.

I agree witrh grandad on this one and think this is one of the best comps in England, tons of value ill be trying next year for it when I can play in Grosvenors again. Also to point out although Bluesquare are adding the money Grosvenors and Bluesquare are all Rank anyway so its all from the same source.

To clear this up in my mind
 
1. Are the players paying a session charge to play in the super sats and the sats or is it a 5% rake on those.

2. Is there then a 5% rake on the main prize pool before the 25k is added.

I agree witrh grandad on this one and think this is one of the best comps in England, tons of value ill be trying next year for it when I can play in Grosvenors again. Also to point out although Bluesquare are adding the money Grosvenors and Bluesquare are all Rank anyway so its all from the same source.

bit harsh isn't it? they are adding money after all........

Great spot! It whooshed me the first few times I read it.......

How many times did you read it?

How many times did you read it?

23. I planned to suggest that Matt had been unreasonble in his suggestion, until the 23rd time.....

More accurately, how many times did you misread it and was it easier to misread than two cards?

so the host clubs of the sats won't make any money out of this then? That is the dumb move I know that the clubs wont want to run sats as they are throwing money away because they have to suspend their normal games for the G P satelites which will send reg players elsewhere and that effects the numbers for weeks after.

john can you remember how many runners we got last year for the gp?

One reason for doing it this way is because of the nature of the event. Sats are self deal. Final is dealer dealt.

just doing the sums on this

last year we collected £230,000   (Rank added £70k)

so  £230000 / £100 = 2300 buy'ins total

with a average of 2.5 per player  2300 / 2.5 =920 players took part in sats

920 / £10 (session charge) = £9200 taken across all clubs in fees

so say you get the same size prize pool this year £230000. - 5% =£11500

the difference is + £2300 or 20% extra juice

and thats not counting whats taken on the cash tables, now I guess this will be a 3 or 4 day event again so thats about £16-20k in cash fees on top which all goes to Walsall.

Am I the only person who noticed this ?

All of the satellites are self-dealt ???

No, we provide a dealer for the sats that take place online at Blue Square.

Am I the only person who noticed this ?

All of the satellites are self-dealt ???

That may be flawed - don't forget that they run Online Satellites, too, which changes the ££ dynamics.

We are getting away from the issue though - do we want, & support, Embedded Reg Fees?

We are getting away from the issue though - do we want, & support, Embedded Reg Fees?

That may be flawed - don't forget that they run Online Satellites, too, which changes the ££ dynamics.


But they still charge a fee online to play in those sats, so it wouldn't change the sums really

OMG - Blue Square charge Session Fees Online now? ;)

That may be flawed - don't forget that they run Online Satellites, too, which changes the ££ dynamics.


But they still charge a fee online to play in those sats, so it wouldn't change the sums really

watch it   ;nemesis; ;tracet;

No, I don't think they would can charge a Reg Fee Online if the Live Supers are reg free?

You'd get mullered - it's Pot-Limit.......;)

You would not hit an old man. Would you?

A few more things about the Grand Prix that have not been mentioned much or at all yet:

-It's £50 this year, which means it should make it affordable to more people than in the past.
-The live satellites all take place on the same day at the same time (Saturday afternoons), with the exception of some addtional ones in Walsall in the week leading up to the event. Grosvenor simply would not be able to do this as fully dealer dealt. Had they tried to, many clubs would not have taken part. As it is, you have to deal, but you can play in any of the Grosvenor or G casinos with a card room. This was another reason to drop the buy in to £50 - as a £100 self deal would have been unacceptable. 
-The online satellites take place on Thursdays
-The Grand Prix is a part of the GUKPT this year, so the winners of all events (side events included) get a seat in the Champion of Champions event. The winner of the Grand Prix itself gets a seat in the GUKPT Grand Final.
-10,000 chips, an hour clock (same structure as GUKPT main events, but without running antes).
-Two starting days, two further days to complete the tournament.
-Trophies, which if you're lucky, I might drop...

A few more things about the Grand Prix that have not been mentioned much or at all yet:

-It's £50 this year, which means it should make it affordable to more people than in the past.
-The live satellites all take place on the same day at the same time (Saturday afternoons), with the exception of some addtional ones in Walsall in the week leading up to the event. Grosvenor simply would not be able to do this as fully dealer dealt. Had they tried to, many clubs would not have taken part. As it is, you have to deal, but you can play in any of the Grosvenor or G casinos with a card room. This was another reason to drop the buy in to £50, as a £100 self deal would have been unacceptable. 
-The online satellites take place on Thursdays
-The Grand Prix is a part of the GUKPT this year, so the winners of all events (side events included) get a seat in the Champion of Champions event. The winner of the Grand Prix itself gets a seat in the GUKPT Grand Final.
-10,000 chips, an hour clock (same structure as GUKPT main events, but without running antes).
-Two starting days, two further days to complete the tournament.
-Trophies, which if you're lucky, I might drop...

Wow, that was a quick U-Turn! On Page 1, you said......well, you know what you said!

why would i object in paying £10 in a £50r where the average buyin is 200.

I don't understand that.  If you had a (£50) Buy-In & 3 Rebuys that'd be £200 + £20, which is absolutely fine.

That, as you know, it not my point. ;)

I still get tilted by the swathes of people who can't figure out that rake and reg fee are the same.

Life-Tilt incoming......

If its a 4 day event are you only having this and the gukpt m/e for the walsall leg?

Obviously there are no session fees, reg fees or whatever you want to call them in the online sats either.

As far as freezeouts are concerned, I think there is very little difference between raking the pool or charging a reg fee. If anything, making it a bit cheaper for people to play may be a good thing at present, credit cruch and all that. Ther vast majority of people lose at poker, so most players will be better off not having to fork out the additional fee. Rebuys are obviously different.

A few more things about the Grand Prix that have not been mentioned much or at all yet:

-It's £50 this year, which means it should make it affordable to more people than in the past.
-The live satellites all take place on the same day at the same time (Saturday afternoons), with the exception of some addtional ones in Walsall in the week leading up to the event. Grosvenor simply would not be able to do this as fully dealer dealt. Had they tried to, many clubs would not have taken part. As it is, you have to deal, but you can play in any of the Grosvenor or G casinos with a card room. This was another reason to drop the buy in to £50, as a £100 self deal would have been unacceptable. 
-The online satellites take place on Thursdays
-The Grand Prix is a part of the GUKPT this year, so the winners of all events (side events included) get a seat in the Champion of Champions event. The winner of the Grand Prix itself gets a seat in the GUKPT Grand Final.
-10,000 chips, an hour clock (same structure as GUKPT main events, but without running antes).
-Two starting days, two further days to complete the tournament.
-Trophies, which if you're lucky, I might drop...

To give it a technical name I think you may of screwed the pooch on this one. The whole reason the gp was such a good comp was the size of the prize pool and it being the only major pl comp still about. I dont think dropping the buy in is going to attract that many more players and trialing this rake at such a major comp is silly. I hope I am wrong because I do think in its old format that it was one of the best about.

I am not to stubborn to realise that when i jump to an opinion on something i may have over-reacted....unlike some :D

Lets wait and technically see what happens. If the pooch gets shafted, don't blame Flushy.

Leave me out of it.

There will be a 75-150 level...

Lets wait and technically see what happens. If the pooch gets shafted, don't blame Flushy.

Select one from two....

1) "some" think before they Post.

2) The aged amongst us are entitled to be stubborn. And to be patronised by kids. Just say "OK pops".

its been suggested that the smaller casinos with fewer runners have a gentlemans agreement where they play it as a freezout
this lessons the prize pool of course but stills puts through the 15 percent of players
any truth in this ????

its been suggested that the smaller casinos with fewer runners have a gentlemans agreement where they play it as a freezout
this lessons the prize pool of course but stills puts through the 15 percent of players
any truth in this ????

Always happens in Brighton

So for good PR why not add 15k and take no rake.  All parties happy?