The Grosvenor Grand Prix is back!

[PocketLady]

I agree that if the added money wasn't there then it would be a complete joke.  I wouldn't want to see it done on tournaments without this amount of added money, but for this specific tournament I really don't see the problem.

[tikay]

I agree that if the added money wasn't there then it would be a complete joke.  I wouldn't want to see it done on tournaments without this amount of added money, but for this specific tournament I really don't see the problem.

And that is the exact & precise point.......

I have - sincerely - acknowledged, as have several others,  Grosvenor have added a "lovely" £25,000 to this Event.

What would be your view, then, if it were not for this Tourney, but a "non-added money" Tourney?

[boldie]

But they aren't raking the rebuys exactly.  The money that comes from the rebuy sats is what forms the pot for the ME.  There's no way they can just rake the original buyins because they won't make anywhere near enough money to cover their costs.  I know as players we don't want to be ripped off, but Grosvenor aren't a charity, they are a business.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Say I have 5 rebuys and dont qualify, then the money I've contributed will be raked at 5% but I haven't paid any juice on the satellite, so effectively I've paid no reg fee at all.

You're very very wrong there.

Say there is a normal 50 +5 rebuy tourney (10% of the buy in is reg fee). now have 1 buy in and 4  rebuys and rake them all at 5% 250£ x 5% =  12.50.

see?

SO we're worried about losing £7.50 in a tournament with 25k added money? What if I only have one rebuy, then I'm paying the standard £5, if I have no rebuys then I'm only paying £2.50. The disadvantage is if you have to have loads of rebuys...but it is still outweighed by the amount of money added.

you are right of course but don't tell me they are not raking the rebuys...really, It's the principle of the thing for me. Taking money directly out of the prizepool and advertising it as no rake (as discussed in another thread on the forum) is already dodgy..but to also rake rebuys?
Don't think that this will only happen in value added tourneys, this will spread once others see they can get away with it.

I don't doubt Mr Raab's intentions are honourable but this is a step on a very slippery slope and sooner or later poker player will get F'ed over.

[tikay]

But they aren't raking the rebuys exactly.  The money that comes from the rebuy sats is what forms the pot for the ME.  There's no way they can just rake the original buyins because they won't make anywhere near enough money to cover their costs.  I know as players we don't want to be ripped off, but Grosvenor aren't a charity, they are a business.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Say I have 5 rebuys and dont qualify, then the money I've contributed will be raked at 5% but I haven't paid any juice on the satellite, so effectively I've paid no reg fee at all.

You're very very wrong there.

Say there is a normal 50 +5 rebuy tourney (10% of the buy in is reg fee). now have 1 buy in and 4  rebuys and rake them all at 5% 250£ x 5% =  12.50.

see?

SO we're worried about losing £7.50 in a tournament with 25k added money? What if I only have one rebuy, then I'm paying the standard £5, if I have no rebuys then I'm only paying £2.50. The disadvantage is if you have to have loads of rebuys...but it is still outweighed by the amount of money added.

you are right of course but don't tell me they are not raking the rebuys...really, It's the principle of the thing for me. Taking money directly out of the prizepool and advertising it as no rake (as discussed in another thread on the forum) is already dodgy..but to also rake rebuys?
Don't think that this will only happen in value added tourneys, this will spread once others see they can get away with it.

I don't doubt Mr Raab's intentions are honourable but this is a step on a very slippery slope and sooner or later poker player will get F'ed over.

It already happens in several Grosvenor Venues, (Bolton, Walsall for their £200), a recent innovation. And this is the concern.

Jonathan is as straight as a die, & would not lift poker players legs - ever. But I'm keen to know what the official line is.

So far, it's in Bolton, Walsall, The Grand Prix (held at just about every single Grosvenor Venue), - you see how quickly a "no-no" can become an "accepted"?

[PocketLady]

I agree that if the added money wasn't there then it would be a complete joke.  I wouldn't want to see it done on tournaments without this amount of added money, but for this specific tournament I really don't see the problem.

And that is the exact & precise point.......

I have - sincerely - acknowledged, as have several others,  Grosvenor have added a "lovely" £25,000 to this Event.

What would be your view, then, if it were not for this Tourney, but a "non-added money" Tourney?

If it was a freezeout I would obviously be happy this is less than the standard 10% juice (if it was kept at 5%) but for rebuys as a rule, no.

But they aren't raking the rebuys exactly.  The money that comes from the rebuy sats is what forms the pot for the ME.  There's no way they can just rake the original buyins because they won't make anywhere near enough money to cover their costs.  I know as players we don't want to be ripped off, but Grosvenor aren't a charity, they are a business.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Say I have 5 rebuys and dont qualify, then the money I've contributed will be raked at 5% but I haven't paid any juice on the satellite, so effectively I've paid no reg fee at all.

You're very very wrong there.

Say there is a normal 50 +5 rebuy tourney (10% of the buy in is reg fee). now have 1 buy in and 4  rebuys and rake them all at 5% 250£ x 5% =  12.50.

see?

SO we're worried about losing £7.50 in a tournament with 25k added money? What if I only have one rebuy, then I'm paying the standard £5, if I have no rebuys then I'm only paying £2.50. The disadvantage is if you have to have loads of rebuys...but it is still outweighed by the amount of money added.

you are right of course but don't tell me they are not raking the rebuys...really, It's the principle of the thing for me. Taking money directly out of the prizepool and advertising it as no rake (as discussed in another thread on the forum) is already dodgy..but to also rake rebuys?
Don't think that this will only happen in value added tourneys, this will spread once others see they can get away with it.

I don't doubt Mr Raab's intentions are honourable but this is a step on a very slippery slope and sooner or later poker player will get F'ed over.

When I say that they are not raking the rebuys I mean that any player who plays a satellite and doesn't qualify hasn't had to pay any extra in juice, that's all.  They have effectively saved themselves £5 in juice.  But yes I agree that if this were to become the norm for other comps it would not be good.

[tikay]

I agree that if the added money wasn't there then it would be a complete joke.  I wouldn't want to see it done on tournaments without this amount of added money, but for this specific tournament I really don't see the problem.

And that is the exact & precise point.......

I have - sincerely - acknowledged, as have several others,  Grosvenor have added a "lovely" £25,000 to this Event.

What would be your view, then, if it were not for this Tourney, but a "non-added money" Tourney?

If it was a freezeout I would obviously be happy this is less than the standard 10% juice (if it was kept at 5%) but for rebuys as a rule, no.

But they aren't raking the rebuys exactly.  The money that comes from the rebuy sats is what forms the pot for the ME.  There's no way they can just rake the original buyins because they won't make anywhere near enough money to cover their costs.  I know as players we don't want to be ripped off, but Grosvenor aren't a charity, they are a business.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Say I have 5 rebuys and dont qualify, then the money I've contributed will be raked at 5% but I haven't paid any juice on the satellite, so effectively I've paid no reg fee at all.

You're very very wrong there.

Say there is a normal 50 +5 rebuy tourney (10% of the buy in is reg fee). now have 1 buy in and 4  rebuys and rake them all at 5% 250£ x 5% =  12.50.

see?

SO we're worried about losing £7.50 in a tournament with 25k added money? What if I only have one rebuy, then I'm paying the standard £5, if I have no rebuys then I'm only paying £2.50. The disadvantage is if you have to have loads of rebuys...but it is still outweighed by the amount of money added.

you are right of course but don't tell me they are not raking the rebuys...really, It's the principle of the thing for me. Taking money directly out of the prizepool and advertising it as no rake (as discussed in another thread on the forum) is already dodgy..but to also rake rebuys?
Don't think that this will only happen in value added tourneys, this will spread once others see they can get away with it.

I don't doubt Mr Raab's intentions are honourable but this is a step on a very slippery slope and sooner or later poker player will get F'ed over.

When I say that they are not raking the rebuys I mean that any player who plays a satellite and doesn't qualify hasn't had to pay any extra in juice, that's all.  They have effectively saved themselves £5 in juice.  But yes I agree that if this were to become the norm for other comps it would not be good.

That is the concern - just that.

[AndrewT]

When I say that they are not raking the rebuys I mean that any player who plays a satellite and doesn't qualify hasn't had to pay any extra in juice, that's all.  They have effectively saved themselves £5 in juice.  But yes I agree that if this were to become the norm for other comps it would not be good.

We've been through all this on another thread.

If the £50 rebuys are raked at 5%, then you are actually playing a £45.24 + £4.76 tournament, so you are paying juice.

[Royal Flush]

But they aren't raking the rebuys exactly.  The money that comes from the rebuy sats is what forms the pot for the ME.  There's no way they can just rake the original buyins because they won't make anywhere near enough money to cover their costs.  I know as players we don't want to be ripped off, but Grosvenor aren't a charity, they are a business.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Say I have 5 rebuys and dont qualify, then the money I've contributed will be raked at 5% but I haven't paid any juice on the satellite, so effectively I've paid no reg fee at all.

*faints*

No point trying mate.

When I say that they are not raking the rebuys I mean that any player who plays a satellite and doesn't qualify hasn't had to pay any extra in juice, that's all.  They have effectively saved themselves £5 in juice.  But yes I agree that if this were to become the norm for other comps it would not be good.

We've been through all this on another thread.

If the £50 rebuys are raked at 5%, then you are actually playing a £45.24 + £4.76 tournament, so you are paying juice.

Don't say i haven't warned ya!

[PocketLady]

Yes I understand the long term concern, but not people objecting to it in this tournament specifically, which some have.  To be honest I can't see another way they can do it with this format.  They can't just charge £5 juice in the satellites because that would be the only income they had from all the satellites and the ME.  They can't charge juice on the ME because no one is buying in directly.  The only way it would be possible to do it is to split the money from the satellites into packages including juice, rather than saying the top 15% qualify.

[AndrewT]

Don't say i haven't warned ya!

Yeah, you're right. Even made me get my sums wrong - a 5% rake is a £47.60+£2.40ish tourney.

[tikay]

Yes I understand the long term concern, but not people objecting to it in this tournament specifically, which some have.  To be honest I can't see another way they can do it with this format.  They can't just charge £5 juice in the satellites because that would be the only income they had from all the satellites and the ME.  They can't charge juice on the ME because no one is buying in directly.  The only way it would be possible to do it is to split the money from the satellites into packages including juice, rather than saying the top 15% qualify.

Ignore it specifically in relation to this Tourney. Think long-term.

The only way it would be possible to do it is to split the money from the satellites into packages including juice, rather than saying the top 15% qualify.

The Grosvenor Grand Prix has been running, successfully, & with the huge support of players, as well as the Sponsors, as far as I can recall, for 8 or 9 years. Juice has always been raised by a Reg Fee on the initial Buy-In to the Qualifying Satellite.

I'm interested why that model is no longer deemed fair & reasonable.

[AlrightJack]

It is being tested out. Whether it continues will depend on the reception it gets. It's not a disease that has suddenly spread to rebuys, as the GP is a one off event and the added money that BLUE SQUARE is adding ensures there is still value. I have little doubt that it wont be repeated if the players' reaction is bad.   Please note that anyone who criticises it will NOT be barred. It's a shame not all poker venues allow their customers the same level of freedom of speech.

[tikay]

It is being tested out. Whether it continues will depend on the reception it gets. It's not a disease that has suddenly spread to rebuys, as the GP is a one off event and the added money that BLUE SQUARE is adding ensures there is still value. I have little doubt that it wont be repeated if the players' reaction is bad.   Please note that anyone who criticises it will NOT be barred. It's a shame not all poker venues allow their customers the same level of freedom of speech.

Thanks Jonathan.

That's exactly what I want to try & do - see what reception it gets. I plan, by the way, to send the Thread to Grosvenor when it reaches it's conclusion - whatever that may be. I genuinely believe it's not in Grosvenor's best interests.

I have little doubt that it wont be repeated if the players' reaction is bad.

The perfect answer, thanks. It's up to the players now, as simple as that!

[Royal Flush]

I actually thinking about it don't see a problem with rake in a rebuy, i am happy to pay £20 juice on a £200 comp so why would i object in paying £10 in a £50r where the average buyin is 200.

I still get tilted by the swathes of people who can't figure out that rake and reg fee are the same.

[PocketLady]

Say we are talking about playing a GUKPT satellite instead and it's a £50 + £5 rebuy.  You pay your juice to enter the satellite, and then if you win a seat your package is valued at £1060, £60 of which is juice for the ME so you are paying two lots of juice anyway.

Yes I understand the long term concern, but not people objecting to it in this tournament specifically, which some have.  To be honest I can't see another way they can do it with this format.  They can't just charge £5 juice in the satellites because that would be the only income they had from all the satellites and the ME.  They can't charge juice on the ME because no one is buying in directly.  The only way it would be possible to do it is to split the money from the satellites into packages including juice, rather than saying the top 15% qualify.

Ignore it specifically in relation to this Tourney. Think long-term.

The only way it would be possible to do it is to split the money from the satellites into packages including juice, rather than saying the top 15% qualify.

The Grosvenor Grand Prix has been running, successfully, & with the huge support of players, as well as the Sponsors, as far as I can recall, for 8 or 9 years. Juice has always been raised by a Reg Fee on the initial Buy-In to the Qualifying Satellite.

I'm interested why that model is no longer deemed fair & reasonable.

How much was the juice previously on the satellites last year?  I know it was £300,000 guaranteed and I have no idea if they met the guarantee from the satellites or not, but there was no added money as far as I'm aware.