blonde poker forum

This may be a simple one, so feel free to lay into me.

Online cash table: big blind = £1
We had been playing 3 handed at around 2am for about 20 hands and I had been probably playing too tight after making a bit of a gain when the table was fuller.

UTG: £120 - playing loose/aggressive and raising just about every pot pre-flop
SB: £131 - playing reasonably snug
BB: £175 - me

UTG raises to £4 - shock
SB re-raises to £14
I'm in the BB with KK and re-raise to £50
UTG folds
SB sticks his remaining stack in
I call

SB shows AA and it holds up


My reasoning for re-raising with the KK was that although the SB was playing fairly snugly and hadn't been re-raising much, I assumed that he had got the hump with the UTG player who was a frequent pre-flop raiser. Even if he hadn't he could have re-raised him with a whole range of hands including AK, QQ & JJ specifically. I didn't want to give the UTG any reason to make a loose call with a rag ace either.
Once I had re-raised to £50, I was committed to stick the remaining £80 in to call the all-in, I guess.
I'm 20/80 even if he has the AA and obviously at least 70/30 favourite against any other hand (except KK). I'm paying £80 into a £185 pot.

So, I'm pretty sure that this is "just one of those things" but I just wondered if it is EVER right to fold KK pre-flop in a 3 handed cash game.
Also, did I re-raise too much initially, which is what left me "pot committed"?

This is a genuine question.

Even I don't fold KK here. 

His range is larger than just AA, so you call.

+1..call very fast indeed.

You did everything fine, and got cold decked, move on, jus unlucky...

QQ in the same situation, and I'm probably folding against a tight player.

So, with QQ, re-raise less (say to £30) and then fold to an ai from the tight player (and he was definitely tight)?

I guess if you're playing razz you could find the fold. Otherwise they're going in.

If Dan can get it all in with kings then everybody can.

Btw. With QQ I'm getting it in as well once I've committed this much.

QQ three handed. and you've just stuck in 25% of your chips..you find a fold?

If you put £50 of a £175 stack in pre-flop in a 3-handed cash game I don't care what hand you have - it's all going in.

Against a very tight player, do you want to be re-raising that much if you don't want to commit?  The re-raise to £50 is committing you to getting it all in to a further re-raise or on a favourable flop.

Would a re-raise to £30 be a better idea?  Or should you be trying to get it all-in here?

That's why I wouldn't be trying to get pot-committed against a very tight player who has shown strength.  Depends how tight they are though.  If their range is a pair JJ-AA and AK, then you're crushing JJ, slightly ahead of AK, and behind AA and KK.  Would a very tight player be re-raising all-in here with JJ though? 

o ffs

With QQ or KK?

TBH with either hand I don't like the £50 raise. It's too much. With QQ you don't want to be committed, with KK you don't want to scare off the weak aces, jj, qq etc.

£30 would be much better for either hand.

Thinking about it because of the £50 reraise you can quite easily put the OR on AA or KK. He can't be doing that with many other hands.

The problem with the over raise is it invites the all in because who would do that with anything other than KK or AA.

£30 next time please.

description of the player was
Why is everybody considering folding QQ here? Nowhere does it say the guy is the rock of all ages. You're three handed..if you can't go broke with QQ here you really need to loosen up IMO.

If you look at my posts, I did say against a very tight player.  I have no idea how tight 'snug' is - I wasn't at the table. 

Against all but the very tightest players, I'm happy to get it in here - but against the very tightest, what range am I up against?

Flat pre

OK. A couple of clarifications.

The guy with AA was definitely tight. Sorry to have misled you with my understatement with "reasonably snug". (It's a bad habit of mine). I based this on his play when the table was full - we'd only played about 20 hands 3 handed. My feeling was that he would be capable of loosening up 3 handed though - otherwise he's a very odd player indeed.

The reason I raised so big was that I wanted to clear the maniac UTG out because he was very capable of calling £30 with a rag ace. If they both called my £30 raise and an ace comes on the flop, I feel that I have to fold to a big bet by either of them. I guess that is probably a risk worth taking. So the play then is to raise to £30, and if no ace on the flop, stick the lot in? (I can't see any point in holding anything back on a favourable flop)

You should never fold here...

I can't remember ever folding KK. I'm not saying it's not possible full ring or with lots of info and things...but 3 handed I'm never folding...

Can you expand pleeeease?

No, I don't think that I could ever fold KK. (I was just wondering if anyone else would have taken a different approach). But what about QQ? This seems a much more interesting question now.  

P.S. I don't want to sound too much of a creep but I appreciate how much effort you're all putting into this :)

If you re-pop here you telegraph your hand, i don't really see the point.

If you flat you let the lunatic in (hell he might even squeeze) you also increase your own range so post if it comes 622 etc you are stacking the SB if he has TT+

I like this.

Trapping with KK is nice. You want the raggy aces in. If you get outdrawn then so be it but you're always favourite.

The big raise leaves you with difficult questions when he repops all in because you quite rightly narrow his range down to 2 or 3 possibilities.

To be fair AA vs KK it's all going in at some point. Chances of an ace hitting the board are very slim so KK is unlikely to escape.

If I had been in a different mood, I might have tried this. I guess my wish was that the maniac UTG would call with something marginal and that the SB would fold. I didn't want to play KK 3 way - is this too tight an approach?

yes


the less confident you are in your ability in playing flops shorthanded the more -EV the play is though

id fold KK 3 handed if it was a sat with 2 seats to a billion pound fortune and a room in the playboy mansion. But only if i had my oppo's covered by 300bb and needed a piss.

I once asked a similar question on here about folding KK pre in 6 max cash and got told it's always a bad fold.  However I still do it in certain circumstances and I find it's saved me a fair few buyins over time.  However, I'm normally only folding when there are at least 3 of us involved in preflop action.  I can't fold when it's one on one, and I don't think you can fold in the three handed game unless your opponent is the biggest rock on the planet.

even the biggest rock in the worlds range is wider than Just AA 3 handed, in 3 handed sat situations i could find a fold, but never ever in 3handed cash

To quote someone on here "fold if you hate money".

Even I play this hand the way it works out.

Of course you are correct.  What I mean to say was..

Lolol, lies!

GFY.

No way am I passing K-K here.

Lol, I could get you to fold

Not a chance in hell, especially against you of all people. Your range is FAR too big for me to even consider folding.

FWIW I have faced a 4 bet allin from TT 3 handed (altho table dynamics widened my range and conseuently his)

huh? surely standard.

6-handed, maybe once a decade if the guy is a rock and only ever 4 bets aces. 3-handed, never fold.

OK, here's one from last night.

9-handed table £1/2 cash table at DTD.

Table has been pretty wild and people are having a great time throwing their money around and straddles are the norm.

Approx. stack sizes:
S1 - BB (me) - £360
S2 - £400
S3 - £180
S4 - £400
S5 - £350
S6 - £250
S7 - £120
S8 - £220
S9 (SB) - £320

I'm in the BB, with Qh Qd.

As was the norm at that time of the session, my BB was straddled round to £16 virtually everytime.  The three players doing the straddling to my left have been very loose, and very willing to get in light and call or raise with less than optimum hands.  Because of this, their stacks have fluctuated wildly.

Everyone folds round to the SB, who raises up to £60.  The SB has been one of the tightest players at the table, and seems to know what he's doing.  Whenever he's been involved pre-flop, he's had a decent hand.  He's been on the table a while, and knows that the players to act after me have been very eager to call or re-raise with a wide range of cards.


What should I do, and why?

Would shove...there is already £100 in pot and danger is if you flat call then it might cause domino

effect with the limpers. You could min raise to isolate sb but then if he shoves it gives you the headache....

would rather let the sb have the problem unless he has AA of course !!

With the knowledge that he's a tight player, and he is aware that there are still 3 very loose players still to act as well as me - what range do you put him on?

Firstly, I'd get myself a different seat.

With my limited experience, I'll venture an opinion.
I'd be very worried that my QQ might be behind to a tight player who knows there is a good chance that he is going to get action and will be out of position. Is it soooooo bad to call with position on the SB and see what happens? If the loose player(s) to your left go wild and take him off his hand, you can call. If they go wild and he calls, you can fold. If they just call him, you can make a move on a favourable flop if the SB doesn't do it first.
Any logic in that at all?

£51 in pot he bets £60...reckon anything from 1010 - AA , AK, possibly AQ , 99 .

If he hasn't got AA or KK then he has a decision to make so you have some fold

equity in shoving. If you re-raise youre going to be commiting half your stack so you

might as well shove. You could flat call but with a loosey goosey table dont fancy your

chances in a multi-way pot.

Get it in !!!

His ranges is probably something like aq+, 1010+ here and qq is ahead of this range. Loads of dead money in there, just shove and hope not to get insta-called.

I would deffo flat most of the time. RRing puts your hand faceup, which makes it unlikely he's gonna call w wosre......plus i like the added benefit of having loads of squeeze monkeys behind. He is tight so you should be able to read him pretty easy postflop as he's rarely going to get out of line.

this

Alex i like your play alot more in a standard online game, where you will often get this pot heads up with position. In a live game at DTD you are getting cold called alot by the straddlers, behind you. Making playing the flop, really nasty as you will in effect be sandwiched by the fact the tight player will fire alot of flop with his range and you will be making a decision with people still left to act.

In a live 1/2 game this doesn't get squeezed alot preflop in my experience.

That might be true but there is probably enough money in the pot to make it irrelevant.

+1

No one consider a fold here?

 rotflmfao

You folded didn't you? Go on admit it. You folded.......

This post needs more love.

wp

 :goodpost:  ;tightend;  ;iagree;  ;applause;  ;topman;  :)up ;first;      

Yes, I did.

The SB showed KK.  Like I said, the SB was very tight, and with the straddlers still to act he had to know he was going to get at least one customer (which he did).  Any other player at the table, and I think I would have re-popped him - although I do like Alex's line with the call as well now.

Ooh ooh, please sir, I said it first. Or did I give the wrong reasoning?  :)

I just couldn't see what he could have that I was beating, other than JJ and I thought that unlikely.  It was the combination of his tightness and the LAGs still to act that convinced me that he wanted callers or even better for him, raisers.

If he'd bet £30 or less, I might have been tempted to call and set-mine, knowing that I could stack him if he did indeed have AA or KK - and hopefully I'd have another couple of passengers along for the ride.

But with the size of his bet and the size of the stacks at the table, I just didn't think I could call.  So it was either a re-raise, or a fold.  A re-raise would see me committed, so it would have to be a shove wouldn't it?

I just thought that it was too likely that he had me crushed, and looking back I think that I'd put him on too narrow a range - he might have done the same with TT or JJ.

nothing wrong with trusting your gut m8.

I couldn't fold KK at the DTD £300 and all the chips were in the middle preflop against aces. Obv the wrong call but I couldn't get away from it. It was a relatively big comp and I should have been able to get away with it at that early stage but I couldn't, I really thought he was on a steal.