blonde poker forum

An article in the Nottingham Evening Post today:

http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/news/Poker-club-close-doors-weeks/article-1040893-detail/article.html

Mmm, has someone listened to http://www.pokertourradio.com/rob-yong-interview and then made the rest up?

I don't see any 'real' quotes from Rob or anyone at DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) in that article, which makes me very suspicious. 

Kin el, I hope not!!! There was a quote in that article?

I accept that newspapers are never the most accurate conveyers of the truth but it does quote Rob:
Rob Yong, owner of DTD, said: "It's very saddening after all the hard work that myself and my staff have put into the club but it's highly likely we'll be closing."

I'm guessing the quote is from the radio show thing and taken slightly out of context.

If DTD does decide to close, I'm sure we'll hear about it through avenues other than the Nottingham Evening Post first.

a journalist using quote marks is never a particularly strong indication that the phrase was ever actually said

i hope this is`nt true ,this would have a devastating effect on a lot of peoples lives .

That's what I would hope and expect too, so not worried just yet.

It would be gutting to have to return to poorly-run casino crapshoots.

Rob posted this in the DTD thread on 13th May


"The club has surpassed expectations in terms of operations after only 16 months of opening, 20,000 members and 1200+ people through the doors each week, its been amazing.
The management and staff have done a brilliant job - we can even phold 5 comps at the same time.

Unfortunatley, it has been a bit more expensive to run that we budgeted! On that note.......

Goodnight Rob"

If I remember the radio piece Rob said he would review things at the end of the year. I spoke to him over the weekend and he did say that he wanted the club to continue, it was never meant to make money but just be his bit of enjoyment within the poker community, but if it was going to cost him £1 mill a year it might not be so enjoyable.

One time where the alarmist press might actually work in pokerplayers' favour.

LEGAL POKERCLUB TO CLOSE DUE TO BROWN'S SECRET TAX HIKE WHILST ILLEGAL ONES STAY OPEN!


Front page of all the tabloids, get people active..throw a few rocks at Downing street and get the tax revoked.

WP Notts evening post.

get some casino games in there- anything but close!!!

Rob was kind enough to give two Interviews to In-Poker on Sunday.

Both of them accurately reflected & reiterated his comments on the excellent interview on PokerTourRadio, which was markedly different to the local Newspaper story.

One of these interviews will be on this week's edition of In-Poker, the longer "in-depth" one willl appear on the Channel very shortly.

He said that....

The Tax & VAT issues make running the Club untenable.

He & Nick would not knee-jerk into any decisions as to the long-term future of the Club.

He will continue to Guarantee the Prize Funds of Legs 2 & 3 of the Grand Slam - if the Club remains open.

Alternative revenue-streams (House Games) do not currently seem to appeal to Rob.

He specifically did not allude to an early decision either way. He actually said  "we will think it over for a few weeks before coming to a decision".

He is particularly hacked off with the Taxation thing.

He is very "down" right now about the situation.

Personally, I think & hope he will soldier on with DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/). Failing that, the Club has a considerable asset value to the right buyer.

I'd be very surprised indeed if it closed.

I was sent the link .... Do not make the mistake of thinking this wont happen.

I hope and pray that the place is packed to the rafters this weekend !!

Its not that straight forward,with house games comes a gaming reserve which can be very expensive.
I truly hope this is not the case as in the Notts post as DTD deserves to be a great success

The only thing worrying me, is that nick.w has been reading this thread for the last 15 minutes and not nipped it in the bud  ;carlocitrone;

people are saying that it`s dropped of latley ,but if you ask all the casino`s this time of year when the universitys are closing for the summer holidays ,they will tell its the same every year around this time.

Put more slots in? They seem to be busy.
Membership system? I think that would mean more footfall as those members signed up would make as much as they could from the club. It was discussed in the first instance - 1st visit free, charge therafter or some sort of memrbership. Anyone else remember that?

Its not so much that Baz, where are all the people that Rob used to hang around with on the circuit a few years back and urged him to open the club ... how many times have the Hendon mob been to DTD and supported the big events ? ... and a lot of the other London Pro's.  Every poker player throughout the country was gagging for a DTD to open and treat poker players like human beings... yet so many get a fkin nosebleed when they have to travel a couple of hours.

It will be a sad day if DTD closes mostly for the people that work there, but If it does close, no one will be able to moan about being shoved in a cramped corner of a casino and treated like shit anymore .... DTD has forced other places to cater for poker players a bit better.

Rob doesnt want DTD to make him money, he wants it to break even at best.

The new tax & rate increases is just sick, its impossible to cover from adding a quid to registration fees ..

I am gutted.

even if you add £2 to every charge he still has to pay £1 in tax on that

Are we missing something here? Could the club close and then reopen without the gaming license, thus loosing the tax implications?

well said Kev, spot on mate.

I dont think Rob would go down that route after all the trouble in getting a license and its a bit big to stay off the radar in being a club without a license.
I dont think it will close but Rob might try and sell it

1visit from the Camel and the place might close down.

Which would probably be a disaster as well as DtD is made by the people that work there and the atmosphere that Rob and the guys have created. I doubt anyone would continue to run the club at such a ridic high standard as Rob, Aces and the guys have done.

Management buy out? Lets see how Aces does in Vegas...

cant we just get flushy to buy a share in it?

No idea about all the taxation laws etc, but couldn't they charge an annual membership or something - 20k members paying £25 a year must help the situation... cant imagine anyone would object to this either?

20k members won't pay £25 a year membership for a club most of them might get to visit a handful of times a year

I agree with this. I would personally be more than happy to pay for this myself even though I only manage 4 or 5 visits but I don't this is feasable for the club and it would discourage those from further out from making the visit.

How about an entry payment?

£25 per year or £5 per visit for non members.

Simple.

Howabout £25 pre year of £5 per visit if you prefer not to pay for a year?
If you go to Ronnie Scotts in London it's a one off entry fee or an annual rate and its surprising how many people pay for the year 'just in case' they come back.

Beat me to it! Well thats 2 people who agree!

It seems the biggest problem is the new tax laws.

We could start a little campaign about it?

An online petition on the number 10 website, a few letters written to MPs (free online, http://www.writetothem.com/), and local newspapers (new tax costs jobs).

I doubt it would have much chance of success, but it's better than nothing.

This. It's all well and good charging an entry fee and all that (which I'd obv happily pay) but that doesn't solve the problem of an extornionate tax. No business can be viable if subjected to a tax like this..and that's where the problem lies.

Nice idea Tracey.

This would of course completely destroy the £10 + £3 beginners comps.

It's not a problem if you're playing the bigger buy in stuff but for the lower end it would be prohibitively expensive.

Anything is worth a try in this economic climate.... Anything that is seen as the government forcing businesses to close at this time would be damning for them.

You would be lucky to get 1000 paying a membership fee and at £25 a pop, it would cover less than 10% of the VAT shortfall.

Tell the tax man they're jaffa cakes not poker chips - job sorted  ;)

Particularly if as someone has already stated we highlight the fact that DTD is only having these problems because it's a legal poker club.

If it was illegal like most of the others there wouldn't be an issue.

This.

Presumably the reg fee to tournaments is the bit that's taxed.

How about offering free registration to the £300 deepstack when you purchase a bottle of mineral water.

There's no law against charging £30 for a bottle of water is there? As far as I know it's not subject to the poker tax either.

Just a thought.

Rob stated in his radio interview that he wouldnt do anything which would appear to be dodging the tax as he has other buisness interests to consider

The rake from the cash games would still be an issue, unless a table fee was introduced.  I'm sure Rob's looked at the options.

The £25 a year membership fee, or £5 a visit for non-members sounds fine.  I can't imagine many being upset. 

Darn him and his law abiding ways!!!

Maybe not but it doesn't solve anything really. Rob was talking about 800-900k being lost because of this law. (top of my head nrs) a £25 member ship fee might make him 100k (and I'm being very generous here IMO) but that still leaves a 700k gap.

Correct. Rob runs all his businesses "straight" & totally street-legal. It's better that way.

Wouldn't be an issue for him if it wasn't in his name though, would it?

maybe the Gaming license is though

I have no idea how that works.  Is the gaming license in an individual's name, I thought it was for the business?

Forget dodgy practises IT AINT HAPPENING ...

So, if you follow the rules in a law abiding manner, improve the local economy and offer the paying public a service above and beyond that which anyone else offers, you can't break even and potentially have to close.

Something is very wrong with this country.

The tax situation is the problem.  I'm not sure whether it is perceived as another way of taxing the rich because in current times, they must be the only ones with cash spare to gamble ?

I treat DTD as an evening out when I am able to make it there.

Yes, the reg fees are more than most casinos, but you get a proper service and environment to play the game that you love to play, and for that, I am more than happy to pay.

Adding additional annual fees or entry fees wouldn't be an issue, but will not solve the problem of the new tax law.

It's just a very sad situation to be in.

It is so sick that Rob has spent so much time and money on a place which gives so many people enjoyment, for the government to introduce a stupid fookin law which could force it to close. Also this stupid law isnt really going to gain the Government that much revenue, but it will end up costing people in the ways of their jobs.

would contacting Robs local MP regarding potential losses of jobs be of any benefit?

If I remember rightly Rob took a lease on the property and, if I'm correct, he is liable for the lease until another lessee is found, not so easy in these economic times. So there is a continuing cost to him even if he closes the club. Perhaps this is less of a cost than the tax?

Hopefully (!) he has made a loss on the club as a whole so this should be offset against his taxes for the year although the VAT is due whatever happens.

I wonder how long the club has to be run as a poker club before the revenue accept (if they ever do) that it's not a casino?

 

I doubt if DTD will be the only club affected by this law, Im suprised all the casinos/ legal poker clubs havent got together and tried to fight this

He wont be interested, he prob claimed his reg fees back in expenses.

I think DTD operates under a full casino license so it doesnt matter whether there are house games or not

Well he never lifted a finger to support the objectors to all of the local Post Offices being closed down which may be a clue.

I'm assuming that we are referring to Mr. Heppel.

im sure if someone posted the Email addy of said MP, the mods wouldnt delete it too quickly.

I wonder if Rob did sell , would Pokerstars or Full tilt  be interested in buying it?

Its the same old story for this country, attack and scam the legitimate, ie; those that will pay not those that should.

The child support agency was used as a big stick to beat more out of fathers who were already paying for their children's up bringing. Whilst those that paid nothing continued to do so.

People who have never missed a payment in their lives end up in court pretty sharpish if they fall on hard times and dare miss a council tax payment, whilst others have never paid at all.

People who have worked all their lives find it very hard to claim for anything should they lose their jobs, whilst those who have never worked live rent free and to a standard many others can only dream about.

And now a legitimate businessman could be forced to close a fledgling business, opened after at an astronomical expense to himself and his partner(s) due to the imposition of a tax which is unrealistically punitive due to the nature of the business.  And all this whilst his unlicensed peers continue to flourish.

I could go on, but it makes me sick.

I've just checked and the MP for that area of Nottingham is Alan Simpson, also a Labour MP.

E-mail: simpsona@parliament.uk; website www.alansimpson.co.uk

I think we'd be better off getting the facts together and sending a well written letter/email outlining the case rather than anything else.

You send a well written letter with all the facts (Good Cop), I'm just going to harangue the twa t. ( Bad Cop )

I think a lot of differently worded letters would have more impact than one (or a lot) worded the same (however well worded it was) 

As long as Ironside doesn't write them.

Lol at this.

You expect all those people who moan about paying for a coffee to pay £25 per year

I have sent my one a day until I get a reply

Well for fecks sake -- automated reply - bet I don't get any another type. Oh well I'll have an inbox full of automated mails and so will he.

Content


Thank you for your email which is acknowledged by this automated response and will receive attention as soon as possible.

Emails are treated in the same manner and with the same level of importance as other communications, such as post, telephone, and fax.  Nevertheless I will try to respond to you as soon as possible.
 
For individual help and support, Members of Parliament can only provide assistance to their own constituents, therefore please ensure you have included your:

•       full name
•       postal address
•       contact telephone number
•       any relevant reference numbers 

With very best wishes,

Alan Simpson

I actually did write a letter when DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) were facing such opposition opening.. Didn't hear a peep.. feck the MP's and they expense stealing ways!

lol, that really isn't worded very well. it reads as an admission that he's not really that bothered about answering post, phone calls or faxes

Hi Guys,

I don't want to get into a Q & A / debate about this, but I'll post once to put everyone in the picture. Nick is away for a week and we both agreed that we would get last week's "festival of doom" out of the way and look at things objectively when he get's back, with all the facts and figures on the table.

Things are always up and down in business and noone forces anyone to invest their money, also the government cannot make specific laws for Dusk Till (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) Dawn (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/), we are the only one of our kind and we made the decision to put our money and time into Dusk Till (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) Dawn (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) - so we must take any subsequent conseqences "on the chin".

However, it does look like the Nottingham Evening Post have jumped the gun, there is no chance we will be closing in the next few weeks but it is true that the medium and long term future of Dusk Till (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) Dawn (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) is now in question, and one of these options is "shutting the doors", as it would be far cheaper to do this and just pay off the remainder of our 15 year lease, than keep Dusk Till (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) Dawn (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) open.

When we budgeted this project, we knew that we would have to carry the additional running costs of a casino, such as licencing fees and compliance procedures, but we do seem to have been caught in the middle of other issues between the Government and the Casino industry, people have been debating the recent "poker tax" , but this is actually our 3rd major problem (AKA 3rd kick in the balls) since we started trading 18 months ago;

Problem 1: The VAT hit us with additional costs categorising our "gaming area" ie. 50 poker tables and the associated space that they take, which is effectively the same as having 50 roulette tables, therefore we could not claim VAT back on almost all of our start up/re-fit investment and on any ongoing future running costs, this is why I said in an interview that "last weeks £71k in overlay was loose change" compared to our other increased costs

Problem 2: Our business rates have recently been tripled by the local Council, we are now paying the same rates as a full casino with 50 casino/blackjack tables, I have been told this review of our business rates was caused my another Casino objecting to the difference to what they were actually paying compared to our rates bill

Problem 3:  Obviously, the recent "poker tax" legislation on all MTT/STT registration fees and all cash game rake or table charges has brought things to a head.

DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) has been more successful that we budgeted in terms of revenues, we never expected a 1300 average footfall on a regular week and the monthly/third party events have exceeded all our expectations, this has been partly due to a lot of hard work by the DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) staff, however, I know some of us feel like we are just "flogging a dead horse", due to the additional 3 points above ie. every time we take a step forward - something else goes wrong to take us 2 steps backwards.

Following the successfull Norwegian Championships, we had just "got our noses in front" proftwise for 2009 and were looking on target to at least breakeven in only our second year of trading, which would have been a tremendous achivement for a fledgling business.

We all like challenges, but the fight to even open the place took a lot out of everyone, including me, and getting hit with more bad news  - which is out of our control, is very frustrating.  We all feel a bit disheartened, so we need some time out to do some logical thinking, there will be no knee jerks reactions over the coming weeks and there is no chance that we will consider anything that is not 100% legal, it is time to take stock after a whirlwind few years and whatever happens in the future, I am especially proud of everyone that helped us to open the doors in the first place, that alone, was a huge achievement against the odds.

Thanks for your comments, feel free to use the contents of this post to answer any other questions that anyone may have.

Cheers Rob

Cheers for replying Rob, keep ya chin up!

been there only a couple of times, but your club is fantastic and i wish you all the best in the difficult times ahead.

I go there most weeks and I will be absolutely gutted if it closes.

Can someone prepare a standard letter to our MPs / the government that we can all print off, sign and post.

hmm do they want to waste taxpayers money on a stamp -- or ignore me because I don't live in Nottingham.

Dear Gerard Smyth

Thank you for your email to Alan Simpson MP.  It would be helpful if you could email your home address so that we can reply back to you.

Kind regards

Carole Bithell
Constituency Office Manager
Alan Simpson MP
Nottingham South
2nd floor, Vernon House
18 Friar Lane
Nottingham
NG1 6DQ

Could an opposition front bencher be a good person to raise the issue?

If you can find one who will support it obviously.

If someone in Notts gave us an address .....   OR we could all just say we live at DTD ;)

Yeah great idea, then Labours Election campaign will encourage haters of gamblers to vote for Labour then we have another 5 years of torture under their financially brutal control. :P :P :P

lol..nah, haters of gamblers already hate Labour more for something other than this...Labour is pretty much hated all over now, I don't even know anyone who still supports them. (Although some people might hate other parties more than Labour and vote for Labour because of it they sure don't vote Labour because they support them)

I'd hope that's the case mate. Thought they did enough to get themselves out of power last time though, and look at them now.

They shoukd be taxing the hell out of the illegal ones, but again rights of criminals (maybe a stretch too far) are favoured over rights of victims. DTD are being victimised for following rules of the law. I'm just echoing the sentiments of many others in this thread, but it shows how sad the state of affairs are in this country.

Rather sadly its because MPs are supposed to pass on correspondence to the member for the area the writer lives in.

Simpson is a left Labour MP who is standing down at the next election, I don't think he's claimed a lot of expenses so be careful how you word your missives. He is generally sympathetic to people who are screwed by authority ie HMRC, Council etc. Good luck in raising this!

I had the same and replied giving the required info. I asked her to ensure that even though I was not from the local area that as it involves a local business that Mr Simpson does look into the matter as it involved his constituents.  ;slavedriver;

Are taxes the issue or is it just the price of poker is too cheap ?

I sometimes look at 40 runner comps with say a £10 reg fee and after taking out wages, employment costs, facilities costs  etc there just can't be that much profit to be had

A number of DtD 'supporters' seemed to be far too pleased with the overlay on recent events imo, but at the same time would, I'm sure, baulk at higher reg fees.

How to offer the right 'mix' of games to make a great club like this a break even venture would be a fascinating business challenge imo

shame

i had intended to try my best to go over and play one of these 3 events towards the end of the year.  it was their own fault tho.  the timing and schedule of the first event was pretty stupid

When it was first announced, 9 months ago, the WSOP was starting a week later (end of this week) and GUKPT hadn't announced any events. Not DTDs fault, IMO.

lol, It's not the 1 event that is causing the problem. Although DtD might be dissapointed with the turnout for the first event that was just a kick I am sure they could take. It's the tax/rates issue that is costing them a lot more than the 50k'ish the first event cost them.

Kev thats not really fair, there have been 2 big events at DTD if i am correct the first one was clashing with the Gala grand final, the 2nd clashed with the WSOP.

Also I think this a side issue- as said previously it's the tax man.

he's talking about why the mob weren't there

flushy should hire me as a translator imo

not sure if already said but would gambling machines/roulette not solve the problem?

Bonjour, this is not good. Spacefrog and amis had made a plan for noel at this place. I hope for you.



Ok, few things. I know how this works, Spacefrog is in Brussels. This is no a viable business because of thiese things. Rob has spend millions, no poker club can do this. My friends, you are looingk at this from the wrong way. Instead of you say abolish this thing for casinos, you now say you make poker club diffeent, they not casino. You say places are illegal, they don't have Rob money. You make special poker licences, all pay tax and be safe. Spacefrogs way you keep DTD and you make many other places for pokers.


You may thank me now.

Just been to the Alea as I had nothing on this evening. Thought i would see whats going on.

So i get there and reg £45 2 rebuys is the tuesday comp.

Nice place. Nice tables. Dealer dealt etc etc

21 runners, paid top 4. I couldnt even bring myself to rebuy. Scratch that it made no sense to rebuy.

In the last level of rebuys i gambled and lost, so it was now going to cost me £40 probably plus £40 to win £500.

I stood up and walked out.

The famous Ash Abdullah told me I was being stingy! I told him id rather spin my £80 up at roulette.

I cant go back to playing these comps. If DTD closes it will be the end of me playing regular live poker.

I hope Mr Yong manages to get through this, as its an amazing place that a few of us get to use as our local cardroom. You dont remember how shit everywhere else is until you go back.  :'(

The cloud over DTD has nothing to do with the overlay in last week's comp.

The date of Grand Slam Leg One (last week) was announced 9 months ago, in a "blank period" - see Sharpleas's Post.

It could have been changed 6months ago though once WSOP was announced surely? It's also no secret when the WSOP is, it did start 28th may in 2008.

It does not really matter JD.

The cloud over DTD has nothing to do with the overlay in last week's comp.

lol ok.  i dont really bother posting much anymore on forums but ill bite here for you.  you say it has nothing to do with last weeks overlay?   dont be ridiculous.  i heard the owners interview on the radio show and anyone who says he has that card room open as a hobby is being stupid.  its a buisness and there to make money

perhaps the 80-90k they lost is not the only reason but it was probably the final nail in the coffin.  and with another 250k and 500k event coming up im sure they are not going to just let them events happen knowing that they will lose money.  i think they should stay open as im sure 90% of people who went to vegas from the uk would have played that 250k event.  so they should get the numbers for them 2 events but i cant see them risking it


also as i said above.  would gambling machines not solve the problem?

I suppose the fact its non-profitable doesn't mean he doesnt get his own wages from it

Rob has a ton of other businesses that make him a lot of money, he knew up front he was unlikely to make any money out of DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/). DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) is a hobby like his football club, he's a lucky person to have done well enough in life to make these kind of choices. If you don't believe me read his diary on setting up DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/).

oh yeah i know i got caught up responding to Kev.

Listen to the Radio Interview again. Rob stated that the overlay was "small change behind the sofa".

And, or alternatively, watch Rob Yong's Interview in "In-Poker" starting nightly from Thursday of this week, 8.30pm, Channel 865. He unequivically states that it's the new Casino Tax, the huge Local Rating Uplift that has just been imposed upon DTD,  and the late withdrawal of VAT on the fit-out, that is the problem.

He's an utterly honest man, he said exactly the same thing in the Radio Interview & in the TV Interview.

Gambling Machines/House Games.

He has a few Slots in there, but they are low volume. In the "Rob Yong Diary" (the most viewed thread ever on blonde, I believe), he told the story, day by day, week by week, for over 2 years, of the reasons behind why he opened the Club. Foremost amongst which was a burning desire that poker players should not have to play in environments where House Games can suck them dry.

Now, he might have to modify that view, but in my interview with him, I asked if he would reconsider that stance. He seemed to remain of the same view as before, & added that....

1) For every "wheel" he installs, a bond of £150,000 needs to be deposited with the GC. He baulks at that prospect.

2) He'd need to remove quite a number of poker tables to have room for the House Games. He is not currently inclined so to do.

He's "down" right now, but the situation is not as simple as some may think. Rob is a complex guy, and he'll keep DTD open if his heart remains in it. And if it does not, he'll shut it, or sell it, I imagine. Though those are my views, I'm not quoting him there.

He did say, by the way, that his Football Cub - Eastwood Town - brings him tremendous enjoyment, & very little hassle, at much less cost than DTD.

In a somewhat ironic twist, by the bye, Eastwood Town have just been promoted to the Blue Square Conference. So, next season, Rob's Football Team, Players, & Ground, will be obliged carry Blue Square branding. Funny world, eh?

I do hope you keep Posting Sir, we always welcome a good debate. 

Well that information is not in the domain - but I'd be staggered if Rob had ever taken a penny piece in wages, fees, expenses, or dividend, from DTD.  Why would he?

I guess I have to add that I have no financial vested interest in DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) whatsoever.

But as one who cares about Live Poker, & better facilities for poker players, I champion DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) at every opportunity. That IS a vested interest.

I also happen to be long-term friends of Rob, Nick W, Simon T & Simon N, so perhaps my judgement is clouded.

You can decide.

Have a gander at this mate - you'll need a few spare hours! - but it'll put the DTD situation & Rob Yong's mindset in context for you.

Enjoy!

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0

Do the Government actually stand to gain any amount of consequence in comparison to allowing the casinos and licensed venues to continue as it stands right now? All I can see happening is the casinos dropping poker and licensed poker venues going bankrupt.

http://www.betastic.co.uk/gambling_news-dusk-til-dawn-poker-club-close-to-closure.htm
is this true?

Loosing is not losing.

On a different note, see this. http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=42233.0

FYP

From a post from Paulhouk somewhere else on the forum a link to this article;

http://www.betastic.co.uk/gambling_news-dusk-til-dawn-poker-club-close-to-closure.htm

Might just be the worst piece of "journalism" I have ever read.


What a tool.
Getting coverage like in the Notts evening post is one thing as it might spark some people into action...this piece is just soo bad and I reckon not what DtD needs.

Obviously someone who's never been to DTD, especially on a £300 weekend when the capacity is reached and every table at the club is being used.

Probably skipped the year at school when they teach you to spell 'losing'.

I too will be gutted if this place closes. Just stick a few roulette wheels in, table gaming is better than no poker IMO.

Trace was right!

This

I do not think 8 pages of speculation will help matters or umbrage over a thieving bunch in Westmister. I am loath to get on here again as Rob Yong  does not take much notice till a few hundred K down the line and the drain.I will however.       In Germany in the mid90s poker was in a sorry state, Dormond where I played at the time had a five table room with 2 going most nights as I had played in the CCC in Vienna and in the US I was underwhelmed to say the least. Many evenings were spent talking to the floorman waiting for a game to start. When I asked why the game was not promoted at all in What was and probably still is the biggest grosser in germany apart from maybe taking punters from the table games he said the casino has to pay 80% tax so after the tax there is not even enough to pay the xs. At the time I thought nothing of it,....When Later I returned to play there all the dealers were looking skittish I asked what was happening they said the thought the room was going to be closed as it was a waste of space. It did  not happen so where is all this going you may ask. OK so fast forward to 2004 or 5, The casino in Mainz or Weisbaden I forget which is running a poker room and getting big fields with the poker boom so how did they overcome the Tax. I do not know but maybe the solution they found could apply to the DTD worth a look methinks.

Posted at 7.00am this morning -

http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/news/Poker-club-close-doors-weeks/article-1042949-detail/article.html (http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/news/Poker-club-close-doors-weeks/article-1042949-detail/article.html)

impressive - an article on the subject that looks vaguely accurate!

Daniel, the writer of this piece is a plum and looks like he just added spin to the original "Evening Post" piece.

Its a sad state of affairs both for DTD and for other legit operators of live poker. The government's poker tax is ill thought out, designed by people who have less than no clue about what they are doing and threatens the existence of many establishments. I hope DTD can come though this intact, although judging by what Rob has said, it looks like an uphill battle to keep it financially viable.

As far as I remember the Grand Slam was announced in mid January, not 9 months ago. The DTD news archive has it down as January 14th.

Once one article has been published all the others just feed off it - nothing new here really.

The original Post article was factually incorrect in at least one other way. Grosvenor did not object to DTD's licence application. It was Stanley, Gala and LCI who made the objections.

Corect John. I saw that, & meant to point it out, but in a thread full of hysterical inexactitudes, it sort of got lost in the melee.

Talking of which, if I got the date of when DTD announced the Grand Slam incorrect, I apologise. I quoted a very good source, but perhaps I misunderstood.

tikay...

i didnt get time to read that link but i will later on.  if this is a hobby and rob is not worried about the money one bit.  why would they close the club?

He is not worried about making a profit, he would be more than happy to break even, I guess he could sustain 'light' losses, but nothing massive...

No ones going to have a "hobby" that loses 800 to 900K a year !!

Maybe a combination of entry fee/membership and some gambling tables is the way to go, along with a long term objective(with casinos!?) to turn around the government super tanker of the nonsensical extra tax.

Also what about some sort of partnership/sponsorship with Skypoker, or other likeminded organisations.

Maybe a return to a 6 or 7 day a week operation can be looked at.

Its looks very tough, with such big numbers, but fingers and toes crossed.

OFFICIAL DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) PRESS RELEASE

Dear DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) Employees and Members,

Following on from some recent speculation, rumour and misquotes, I would like to make it absolutely crystal clear that there is no chance of us closing in the near future, or trading unlicensed to avoid paying higher taxes.
In reality, closing the doors would probably never happen, as a number of companies have registered an interest to acquire us, should we ever feel that the "struggle" gets too much!

When we chose to take the legal route by applying for a full casino license, we budgeted for all of the additional costs of operating legally, such as licensing fees, extra security measures and the employment of a dedicated compliance officer. Unfortunately, because we chose this path, we have recently become "caught in the crossfire" between the authorities and the casino industry. Consequently, we now face major tax increases in the form of;


1. VAT - this is now based on our total gaming area, so our 46 poker tables are treated exactly the same as having 46 roulette tables – now that is a super casino! Therefore, VAT is not reclaimable on almost all of our running costs, including any capital expenditure spent on the building.

2. Business Rates - these have literally gone through the roof and we are now paying the same rates as a 22,000sqft fully equipped casino. It has been indicated that this re-evaluation was prompted by another casino objecting to the level of rates that we were previously paying.

3.Gaming Duty - the appropriately nicknamed "Poker Tax" is now payable on all tournament registration fees and cash game charges, unlike a full casino, poker is 90% of our income and this new tax is applied to all of our poker revenues - whether we make a profit or not.

Despite these setbacks, it will still be "business as usual" at DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/); however, Nick and I will be considering the options as we move ahead. We also intend to consult our members and employees for their views at a future date. Thankfully we are in a good financial position, whereby there is no pressure to make any hasty decisions, but the reality is that we must address these significantly increased costs. Furthermore, we must also factor in the probability of more tax increases in the future, as the authorities continue to target the UK casino sector.

Cheers, Rob

PS. Last week's DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) Grand Slam overlays will have no effect on our future plans - at least the cash goes directly back into the poker community! I am certain that we will be more successful in the future. This was our first attempt and many venues would be pleased with a 194 field for a £1000k buy-in, especially taking into account the WSOP changed their dates and the market leading £1000 GUKPT took place just a week earlier.

This is really annoying, someone tries to do the right thing and help the poker community and everyone just puts obsticles in the way of doing it properly

the government is bailing out banks / car companies etc most of which engineered their own downfall yet seems intent on putting folks out of jobs and losing customers a venue they love, no DTD would produce no tax revenue so the authorites would shaft themsleves too

Wondering is there gonna be a new name there after tomorrow?

Happy days!

DTD is simply the best, their attention to detail makes them a class apart from any other Cardroom I've visited, worldwide. Long may it last.

I hope it never changes ownership, because it's the personal care by Rob, Nick, & his Team, that makes it what it is, & nobody could replicate that.

I wish them a successful future, against all odds, starting with this weekend's £300 Deepstack, through the two remaining Grand Slam Legs, & beyond.

Great news that dtd will not be closing its doors. I have been there myself and loved it. All the best rob...from all at the G Luton.

Rob Yong for PM

MP should do the trick...that way he can lower the rates and lobby for the tax increase to be revoked :)

i was proposing him as PM with a far wider remit than merely saving DTD.

Great news!

Rob

you appear to be a class apart from your competition - well done

however why not name said casino who dobbed you in to the rating office. We the general public can then choose whether or not we visit said establshments nationwide. It appears that your competition may like dirty tricks, well you neednt stoop that low, but we can all make our own informed choices.

As for the rating issue. I used to work with one of Yorkshire best rating survyors and will gladly forward his details if you wish?  These things can always be challenged!

GL with everything - long may DTD continue!

Surely there must be some mechanism which allows the classification of all poker tables to be classed in the same way as standard gaming tables to be challenged.

To my small mind I can see the justification of Cash tables being looked upon in the same manner as any other gaming table as there is a constant flow of cash and rake across the table, even though you are not playing against the house.

However tournament tables are exactly that, individual elements of a larger facility, ie the tournament area, and the tournament area is basically a single facility.  So there must be some argument that D T D could be 10 cash tables + 2 tournament areas = 12 gaming tables (Equivalent).

The trouble we have is that the people who write the legislation in this country have no knowledge or interest in the matters they legislate upon.

1/14 Gala 10 bar.

I like that argument a lot.

Agree

Tournament income is not based on the game at all, it is merely a charge paid for the use of facilities and services of staff, the outcome of the game in no way affects the revenue and such is very different from a gaming table

well said tony,
it's easy to forget what the scene in the midlands was like before DTD opened it's doors....let's hope they can ride this storm & get to build upon what they've started.

This is such bad news all round - but if I can make a few points

2. VAT - There may be some leeway here for a negotiation or a reduction? I know some VAT specialists who will meet with Rob and look at the situation.

2. Business rates - As i understand it business rates are set directly in relation to business turnover and profit. DTD has no where near the turnover of a city centre casino and as such should be paying far less in rates. As a business you can challenge your rateable
                          value and I would be seeking legal advise as how best to do this. There are many property surveyors who will do this on a contingency basis.

3. Gaming Duty -  I have looked at the HM Revenue & Customs website and quote the following

What is Gaming Duty?
Gaming Duty is a duty based on the gross gaming yield (ggy) for premises where gaming takes place, usually a casino.

Gross gaming yield consists of:

the total value of the stakes, minus players winnings, on games in which the house is the banker
participation charges, or ‘table money’, exclusive of VAT, on games in which the bank is shared by players
In other words, the money gambled minus any winnings paid. The rates of duty are based on a sliding scale from 15% to 50% based on the ggy increments.

top ^What games does it apply to?
It applies only to the following games, or games essentially similar to them:

American Roulette
Baccarat
Big six
Blackjack
Boule
Casino hold ‘em poker
Casino Stud Poker
Chemin de Fer
Chuck-a-Luck
Craps
Crown and Anchor
Faro
Faro Bank
French Roulette
Hazard
Let it ride
Pai gow poker
Poker Dice
Pontoon
Punto Banco
Sic Bo
Super Pan 9
Texas hold ‘em bonus poker
Three Card Poker
Trente et Quarante
Two-way Texas hold ‘em casino poker
Ultimate Texas hold ‘em poker
Vingt-et-un
Wheel of Fortune



Unfortunately note the phrase - or games essentially similar to them:

In my humble opinion this tax is aimed at games like roulette and blackjack and not really meant for taxing poker tournaments etc.  Rob is in the unfortunate position of being the only licensed poker club in the UK and as such has been branded into the casino categary.
I would again be seeking legal / accountancy advice and consider challenging this position.

I am sure Rob will be looking at all his options and I have high hopes of him finding a soloution.

Chris this is last years, the HMRC hasn't updated the site for this year, I made the same mistake.

In the budget 2009 they included equal chance games, i.e. poker, with the GGY - Doh!

ok Thanks

"2. Business rates - As i understand it business rates are set directly in relation to business turnover and profit."

Buiness rates have nothing to do with business turnover and profit.  It's a 'tax' on the building, irrelevant of the profit that the business in there makes or turns over.  The type of business effect things, but not turnover and profit.  I would have thought it would be on a par with other buildings in the same industrial estate though, obviously pro rata for the size of the premises.   Type of business may effect things, but you shouldn't be charged X amount for the club next door and 10 times that for DTD.

I'd guess Rob knows a bit about rates though through his other businesses.

Thanks for your supportive comments guys, but we have really worked these problems to death at considerable cost with very well qualified and experienced lawyers, surveyors, tax advisors - all with gaming industy  knowledge - there are no loopholes that would let me sleep comfortably at night and to be honest, I don't believe I have another "big fight" in me at my age - I want some quality of life!  

I also said to myself that after the licence saga, I would never put myself through any further court processes/lobbying governments etc etc - although I am up at the notts magistrates court for speeding next week! Things are also different now, with DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) employing 100+ staff, we have a duty to them aswell, where as before, the consequences were just financial and few bruised egos.

I did an interview on Radio Trent today, clearing up the "DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) closing in 2 weeks thing". What I actually said was "I will think about it over the next 2 weeks " and later on in the interview, I said "when any business becomes financially unviable, of course there is a possibility of closing" - somehow the 2 got mixed up!

I hope the press statement clears things up.

Cheers Rob

Please see.....

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=42298.new#new

Wow.

Just had an e-Mail from DTD. It refers to this Sunday's £150 Jobbie, which is the Side-Event to the £300 Deepstack.

The Guarantee is usually £10,000.

Now they have amended that, perhaps in the light of last week's goings ons. To £20,000.

Unbelievable. I must stop eulogising DTD, but jeez, how good is that place?
 
If DTD made Lager.......

20k guaranteed?..I reckon that's cus Rob knows Cos and the Clown are coming..so that's an extra 300 in the kitty already...I've heard guys are flying back from the WSOP just to sit at the same table with these guys.

Hats off to DTD...

lol Boldie

Keep up Tikay!
This was announced aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaages ago!
I will be playing both, I assume, after i take a custard pie in the eye in the £300

Our circus world tour was immense, the clown and the oldest youngest man in the world.

When are you gracing us with your presence oh bold one? You there tonight?

Dear Clown,.

The e-Mail came in yesterday.

God help you if you play the Sky Poker Grand Final next week, because I'll have the microphone, & you'll be seriously abused.

BE AFRAID.

No my young make-up-wearing-floppy-shoe'd friend, I shall be there from tomorrow evening until Monday :)

Sunday night session imo.

yeah..sounds like a plan, not like we'll have any poker to play :)

You may have just had that email but they havent just done it!

I will have £100 with you old man!

They announced the new £100k guaranteed weekends, weeks ago. Possibly at the last £300. Maybe even before!

I wish to god I was playing the Sky Poker tournament! I would come dressed in a full clown outfit just for you.

Unfortuantely I will be having a beer in Rhodes.

MBSFN TO BE THE CLOWN  ;D

FML. Owned by a Clown.

PS - Do you have permission from Kev to take the weekend off from SAS? At least it will reduce our losses for a few days.

F**king hell have you all seen how young I am!?

48?

Correct Mr Massala, well done!

Am I up or am I down at the mo!
Think im up, add the rake you get i think im making you a profit am I not!?!

Double owned by a clown.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (laughing like the evil clown from stephen kings IT)

Anyway so as not to let Tikay take this thread of course.....

Great news about the bigger guarantees! The £300 is THE finest monthly guaranteed tournament and will no doubt get to £100k in the pool.

Sunday afternoon tournament will be a great one to, if anyones unlucky enough to be out!
£150 for a minimum first place of circa £6k?!!!

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Plus dont forget all the new valets

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Plus Boldie

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

At last. Mr Clown gets the idea, & sees where I was coming from. Sigh, just sigh.

You gonna be there Tikay? Need to win your pension to help add to mine

The Deepstack weekend? Nah, am working, in Dublin, all weekend.

The Sky Poker Weekend - you bet I am! But working, not playing. Michelle Orpe, Norman Pace & Richard Orford will be there, too, but not playing the Main Event, just playing "Play The Presenter" SNG's all day, for those who bust out early. You'll be alright.

I always had the idea.
Just wanted to show you up.
Wouldnt have done it in the old days, when you used to be my hero.
You used to be someone to look up to.
Now you just pick on me.
You used to be cool...........................................................................

 :P

Cos will be there for the SNGs.  He's a big fan of Norman Pace.

Wasnt Cos a bit before Norman Paces time?

FYP.

FYP

I shall indeed be "getting jiggy wif it" as you kids call it :)

See you tomorrow, me and golden bollocks are coming up.

wooohooo

theres also the new poker room in Kings Lynn called The Maltings
http://www.maltingspoker.com/pages/about-us.php (http://www.maltingspoker.com/pages/about-us.php)

So you have a gaming licence? Legal?

The Maltings isnt anything im involved with or linked to just a poker room i've been to recently, all above board, great friendly place to play, just tell em jason sent you,

its a new place only been open a couple of weeks n alot closer to me than nottingham, for sayin its only been running a few weeks games are usually running from open 'til close

^^^These places piss me off actually, hanging off the coat tails of DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) that has done things properly...........

The Maltings has also done things properly and considering the are different areas of the UK i dont see how there isnt room for more than 1 poker room in the UK , i would have to travel for over 2 hours to play at DTD but i can be at The Maltings in 45 minutes....i still use both rooms depending on whether i can be away for a full weekend or just want to travel locally.

ill tell u another thing the atmosphere of a the club is fantastic i am treated very well n recommend closed minded people to go there before writing it off.

I personally think its a great thing that places are starting to open, players too far south or north to travel DTD will hopefully soon have options to play live instead of all online

So do you have a gaming licence then?

why on earth would i have a gaming license ? , like i said im a poker player and am not involved in the owning or management club
its just local to me and i've played there a few times and they treat their customers better than any othr cardroom ive ever been in, and ive played in many clubs , living in USA for 10 years n played many of those years in the big venues in Vegas , and still this card room has treated me the best out of any.

but yes they do have a  license and everything is above board

I'd be surprised at that but happy to be wrong. Doubt I'll ever visit though, location is terrible for most.

So you they will be paying GGY also then?

woodsey  :  location maybe terrible for u but judging by how busy the club has been when i visited , i'd say its in a good location for alot of players

dik9:   as for paying GGY, theres a contact us page on the link i posted earlier if u want to know wot htey do or do not pay maybe worth giving them a call n speak to the card room manager

My original intention with posting the details was to let players know there are other options and places to play, up until recently i had no option but to travel the 2+ hours , i have no idea where u all live and how many other players would like an opportunity to place closer to home like myself , so i posted the information i know , anything else then i suggest contact the club


I will say one final time for those whose seem to be missing it in my previous posts
I AM HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH  MANAGEMENT OR OWNERSHIP OF THE MALTINGS POKER ROOM

No need really, they won't be paying GGY as they are not casino licence holders, I presume they are under the umbrella of a private members club, it does look very nice btw, but as it is being advertised as  the newest 'poker only' venue in West Norfolk I suggest the owner gets someone to look into the legality, or even read the GC's terms and conditions of poker in private members clubs.

Hence the reason Rob has posted that it is unfair, as DTD is 100% legal and THE ONLY 100% legal Poker only venue in the country.

nonsense.

Obviously.  But like the countless others, they'll continue to get away with how they operate whilst Rob and DTD continue to jump through hoops to be 100% legal.

Is there anything very wrong with unlicensed venues ? Honest folk just trying to make a living imo

Sarcasm i hope

I think their might be a slight contradiction there.

But I think the main problem is with they system itself rather than the individuals who try to get around it.

The law is the problem.  But whilst it's in place, these venues are operating outside of it.  Players need to be aware of that, and many aren't.

It's like speeding limits.

You may not agree with them - but whilst it's the law, you 'should' abide by them.

I'm afraid that any club that expects me to play in a self deal game until the final table is not treating me better than I've been treated before....self deal is not the way to go imo - just takes the game backwards.

well let me say 1st of all , that the tournaments are not self deal , neither are the 50-1 games n higher, the only self dealt game is 25-50 , which also gives the lower stakes players a chance to play and all for the price of £2.50 an hour, even the vic in london has self dealt games at 50-1 n they charge £6 an hour.so if u think the best card room in the country for the last 20 years is backwards having self dealt games then maltings is in fine company

hehehehe lolz

perhaps you should advise the owners of this club to remove the "All tourney games are self deal until you reach the final table." quote from the website then as i am sure more people will attend if it is in fact dealer dealt.

Not for nothing, I'm sure this Maltings place is lovely, but is it not a little inconsiderate to tout a poker club whose legal status is questionable on a thread which was originally about DTD - a 100% legal club which has tried to do things the right way but is getting shafted every which way but loose - while illegal clubs everywhere are operating without any sanction?  Nothing wrong with bringing new venues to peoples attention, just seems a bit inappropriate to do it on this thread.  Time and a place and all that.

Exactly where I got my info from!

I am sure he will make the changes to his website immediately ;)

What is the £2.50 an hour charge for?  If it's for poker is that actually legal?

I have to say that's what got on my tits last night when I replied.

10% rake £8 max <--------- I dont like, the club only seems to have 5 tables, put that with a 20 min clock on all comps ,no thanks ill play elsewhere

The law is the problem. Basically poker only clubs shouldn't have to obtain a full casino licence, with all the huge costs associated with it. Until this is changed, small local clubs will start up with a club gambling licence and hover on the line of legality. They take a calculated(very small it seems) risk, as do their punters.
 DTD went down the 100% legit option, and knew they could run a break even club until they have been shafted by HMRC.
You pay your money you take your choice.

At least the tax man can be taken on and beaten:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8089388.stm

Yizzal do you know if the Maltings is still owned by Ian Williamson?

Disgraceful to tout a sub standard club that isnt legal over DTD. DTD thread or no DTD thread this is a disservice to poker players.

Boldie how many times have you played at the Vic?

I think a lot of these small unlicensed venues provide a service to poker players - often offering more play for your money than casinos. Not everyone in the country can readily get to DtD or justify the expense of getting there.

That DtD went forward on a grander, fully legit basis, doesn't make all unlicensed venues deserving of the opprobrium oft dished out here. The piety grates a bit as well.

Trying to advertise here unpaid is a bit cheeky though

Top wordsmithing with opprobrium sir  ;tightend;

i did agree the vic has been top of the shop for a long time

I only played there twice..5 or 6 years ago. It was very nice and surely ahead most other places I've seen (from what my old memory recollects) but DtD is miles ahead ...then again, maybe the Vic has upped it's levels since DtD opened and is keeping up with DtD nicely now...but I'd be surprised if anything compared with DtD ATM as they simply can't put in the level of investment Rob has.

The Vic doesn't even come close to DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) as far as tournaments go

At DTD I've never had to wait more than a few minutes for a cash table either unlike the hour or so you have to wait sometimes at the Vic.

DTD's dealers are on a par if not slightly better on the whole in my opinion and DTD has less stupid rules than the Vic.

The only thing the Vic has in their favour is Lenka imo

i just realised phil taylor started this thread

he's my hero

Not wishing to deviate to much from the origional thread but imo, The Vic is a great place to play cash games, its weekly tournaments are not as good as DTD, except perhaps the tuesday £100 rebuy ( £20 entry fee!) Overall they are both pretty much on par for dealers but the Vic does have some silly rules and Lots of them! However, it doesn`t have the same drive to succeed as DTD. (Yes I am a Vic regular)
Both clubs are pretty close in level of service and Rob and his team have done a great job, the £300 deepstack is by far the best monthly tournament in this country and deserves everybodys support. The cost of continuing at this level may prove ultimately too much and our stupid goverment has done nothing to help the situation
Going back to the origional thread...  Will DTD close? I think not.... but it may change hands one day.

Great Post Pete. Both Venues are excellent, & it's good to see some balance on the thread.

But it's a worry that you & I agree again, sleep in the same bed, so to speak. That's twice now. ;)

Hope you are well, & in good heart.

You coming to DTD this weekend?

Hi Tikay,
Yes and No.
Yes I am well and grinding on, and no sorry can`t make DTD this weekend but, I hope it all goes well for Sky, yourself and the Club.

PS. Very worrying indeed that we have now agreed twice!

PPS. Please don`t use that  "sleeping together" analogy again, people will talk.

Talk about strange bedfellows.....

So given its in a completely different room now how could you possibly know?

I prefer the Vic cardroom personally, i like the room itself better (i don't feel like cattle in a barn) the range of games offered is a lot wider, the rake is a lot lower and it's in a far superior location.

That said the two of them are leagues above anywhere else in this country i have been too and i have been to a lot of cardrooms!