blonde poker forum

20 left in the £350 comp at equal chance at the weekend.

Blinds 1k 2k 200 ra.
 
Utg, 70k limps, no reads or knowledge of this player as we have recently started day 2, cut off limps. V good player, 160k don't know if helps naming him so won't reveal yet limps, I make up in the sb with  qs 10c got 85k. Bb checks. Tight but decentish. 70k.

Flop is qd 10s 7h.

Being first to act, what is the best thing to do here?

I lead for just under pot here

lead 3/4 of pot

hope you get raised, ship it in and probably lose to a set of sevens

FYP

I like a lead, but it looks strong and the problem with having top 2 is it reduces the chances your opponents have hit...

Nothing wrong with a little check raise here as an alternative option...

Check raise looks weaker than a lead?

No, but with a lead there's a pretty good chance both players will just pass. A check raise (or possibly check call even) is likely to induce at least a c-bet, and if it checks round we have a rainbow board and I guess we're only hoping a broadway card doesn't hit so we can deal with that scenario...

Would need to know a bit more about the good player in the cutoff. Does he usually raise from this position? His limp is a bit of a nothing action and I'd expect most players to raise from the cut off with a half decent hand. (or even garbage as they have position)

I would be tempted to bet out here but there's nothing wrong with either check/raise or check call depending on your oppos (IOW, will they come over the top or are they likely to fold).

Actually a check might be better as you have UTG and cutoff to act behind you. If UTG bets out and cut off calls you'll have some more chippies in the pot and a check raise might be the better option then.

He has been opening from almost every position, and has been 3 betting pre a lot of the time, we are about 20 mins into day 2, so this info is from day 2 and also the last hour or so of day 1.

ok, i have had mixed views on this thread and elsewhere on the flop play, so, here is what happened next.

i check, as does the BB, the utg limper bets 2k (lol) cut off makes it 10k.. I ????

(THIS POST WAS BEFORE THE REVEAL ABOVE)

I think you need to make it look weak ish here - but also be aware of the succeptability of the 2pr!

So I think I lead 75% of pot - hoping for a raise from villain - i which point i smooth call. If he is aggro - check the turn - awaiting his bet and then jam - or make a big enough raise to commit yourself (obv assuming  a none scary turn)

The problem with the 2pr is you could be forced to play it very passively on later streets OOP if you get horror cards. If he is aggro - im going with it as soon as is realistically possible.

Raise/call a shove

Flat/re evaluate turn

prefer option 1 due to be oop

raise/ then call any

Too many turn cards that get you wobbly, having to play it oop if you decide to flat/play the turn

The problem after this action behind you is that anything you do will be interpreted as super strong

Think you have to pop it up to like 25k and just hope that doesn't kill the action (unless they have you beat obv, but that is elementary with this board...)

Raise and commit yourself here

there is circa 22k in the pot, so i would rasie to 30-35k and make it clear that you are going nowhere.

If they flat (which is terribad) - i open shove any turn card (with 4 outs FTW kinda worse case). Hopefully they donk reshove with AA/KK/AQ and you fade the outs.

I think we can prob discount UTG from having a strong hand with his piddly little bet. Thing is Vin, your reaction is to lol at that bet...because the bet is ghey. But aggressive 3-bet cut-off guy obv can have a similar dim view of this bet. With 160k at his disposal he really doesn't need much of anything here, he just needs to lol at the bet as well. It's not like the guy has shown any reluctance to raise people off pots. If you now come over the top you tell them both you have a made hand...and you're not going anywhere. 7-7 will love the fact you're committing and weak hands will fold...don't think you can stack 1 pair by raising. If you do raise you are putting in almost 1/2 your stack which ties your hands, pushing is for too much, but calling is the best way to stack worse, particularly vs a LAG oppo on a rainbow board. Call and play a little poker imo.

Problem with this is Mantis there's so many turn cards that will kill the action on this board. I think you can raise to 25k here with V's stack to either incude a shove or get value against one pair.

this

way too many scare cards - if he wants to be aggro - let him make the mistake

Would you go along for the ride with 1 pair after bet-raise-re-raise George?...Would you shove 1 pair after that action? Yep, a little less than half the deck could cool the action on the turn...but more than half the deck doesn't. Raising the flop kills the action for certain imo.

It's a small plus, but plus if you do smooth the flop you keep all your options open should the UTG now spring to life.....

He may not shove with with one pair but he may flat due to the dynamic of utg. Like you said- he doesn't have to have anything to make it 10k so might put the big blind who now decides to 3 bet post flop on a move. I think he would possibly shove a draw like KJ.

If you smooth now, do you lead the turn when a safe card comes or check again?

For sure. Also there's enough evidence to suggest either villain isn't all that strong at all...piddly bet & raise of piddly bet. So all this talk of pushing to stack never happens imo. You would only raise here to win the hand now vs a POSSIBLE draw that may well not exist.

but lets assume they fold. you add nearly 1/3rd to your stack. this is far more acceptable than facing a crappy turn an driver decission. A very good player isnt going to let you off lightly if the scare card comes - and there are 2 more streets of pain OOP!

I think if UTG gets it in here (After the raise) he has a donk played AA  - or the 77

I am far happier here to take the pot as it stands

85k BB checking to make a move for half his stack vs UTG bet & big stack re-raise is some move imo. I don't think he would consider that realistic. The texture of the flop let's cut-off discount a number of Vinny hands e.g. Q-Q, 10-10...but he can readily put him on a draw...so you still have options come a safe turn. Also, calling means scare cards, if they do come, look like they have prob hit you, so no need to lose initiative in the hand.

The problem is the gay 2k bet. Now having to re-raise both looks uber strong.

ok- for arguments sake- would you ever re raise the 10k with any of your range? Or are you flatting 100%? Ie: most top pairs, draws etc etc

Buddy, if the flop came down   8h 9d Jh would you still be happy to raise the other two guys off the pot to take what's there? There are 9 hearts, 9 cards that pair the board and 2 10's that could mean we're beat come the turn. That's more cards that beat us than in this example and so more awkward decisions than here. Would you be happy with an extra 12k after hitting the nuts or do your ambitions to win the tournament go further than that? In this hand we can prob discount Q's & 10's so we're only losing to 7-7. If we raise to commit 7-7 always gets us anyhow. So we should play this hand as if it's the nuts imo. If you still raise the nuts on that flop fair enough.

George, I would only raise to take the pot down on the flop...cos I reckon raising should take the pot down.

This..anything other than flatting looks very strong..flatting at least makes it look like you could be drawing.

It's a tricky situation this; You flat. BB gets odds to call with any draw (if he has one) and there are plenty turn cards that would complete a draw and you are OOP. You flat and look like you're drawing, even if neither of the other guys are too many turn cards kill your action.

You raise and you might as well have your hand face up..if neither of the guys have a big hand (bottom two+) you have just killed your action as well.

I prefer flatting but would Hollywood it for a while and just hope they buy it.

I don't think he can flat with 70k behind and one person still to act. He doesn't really want the pot small with people drawing against his hand. I think raising now is the right play but its unfortunate that a decent player can lay down a strongish hand which they might not have done if we were only raising one bet.

Check-reraising is just too strong.

It's a bit of a bastard this spot (when it comes to getting the max out of it), you're out of position and almost everything you do now is going to look strong. I don't mind keeping a draw in on the turn TBH..I just want as much money as possible in the pot now as I'm almost certainly still ahead.
I therefore think flatting might be the best way to achieve that (The problem is of course that you're still OOP on the turn and might find it goes, check, check..and then you've given two free cards away)

Which cards would you be happy to get it in with on the turn?

On a Q 10 7 rainbow flop. 2.3.4.5. Q 10, 7 obv. (forgot that a 7 might counterfeit you with a donkish played monster pair)  With the way the pre flop action went I'm thinking 8-9 is a fairly unlikely holding (UTG won't have limped with it and cut off would probably have raised with it) so I'm OK with a 6 and a J  as well.

Essentially the only cards I don't want to see are the Ace and 9 that complete the high straight draw and the K 8 as J9 is a tasty holding here  and KQ would counterfeit your top two.

89, J9, KJ, KQ, QJ type hands are all possible. Being OOP I really don't think we can afford to get really funky and flat here. I think this play just leads to us losing value.

By raising our hand is face up as very strong but at least we put a decision on the other two players and essentially we are trying to induce them to play for stacks with holdings like KQ KJ etc.

We can't lead on the turn having flatted pre. We may as well stand on the table and scream 'I've got you all by the bollocks'. By checking we're giving potentially 2 free cards and stand only to win a small pot when its clear our opponents or at least one opponent has an interest in that board.

It would just be a bit of a train wreck in a limped pot OOP I think.

Anything to be said for over-bet shoving the flop ?

I would lead here hoping for the raise but as played I am not wanting to go 3 way to the turn which looks like happening a good bit of the time if we flat call. The over-bet shoves looks weaker than a raise imo and you get it in right now. Badly played overpairs, Qx and JJ and T7 are likely to call. The set being out is extremely unlikely and I don't like giving free cards to two players who may be drawing to beat my made hand.

Its just wayyyyyy to much - like 65k into a 22k pot

It seems to me that this kind of spot breaks out the player that you are

You know that half of the deck are scare cards. So if you are happy to chip up 1/3 of your stack raise and take it

If you want to play for deception  - flat and reassess.

What happens if you flat and UTG moves all in and MP reshoves to ISO? Is it 100% a fold?

Then lets say UTG exposes his hand as AA - would you then lean towards calling?

Buddy, in the final 20 of a decent comp like this are you going to shove your comfortable stack in with zero FE after bet, raise, re-raise, holding K-Q or K-J? The only decision you give your oppos by raising is how quickly to muck imo. Therefore, it is raising that loses you value. If leading the turn after flatting the flop screams “I’ve got you by the bollocks” then when you have K-J you should call the flop and lead the turn. In fact, call flop-lead turn should be your default with any draw if it looks so incred strong. This is a good hand for debate thou & I think this discussion only gives credibility to leading the flop into 3 villains including 1 serial 3-bettor. Checking to raise here tells your oppos you have best hand and gives worse hands an easy fold, is that good poker?. You wanna make it easy for your oppos just in case you may make it harder for yourself.

Decent comp like this? What makes you say it's decent? Prob has all of about 3/4 good players in the last 20.

In these places the players are shit and I wouldn't put it past someone to go crazy and ship KQ/KJ here.

Fold equity!? If you said that at the table everyone would probably think you were talking about Origami.

I agree with you that the flop should have been led, 100% but don't like your suggested line with KJ.

Looks like you are going to have to give your hand away either way then.

It's nice to be able to make strong plays that make the next street easier to play, extract the max from every pot, fill up on the turn, be so short in chips that it plays itself, etc.

Sometimes I think you have to suck it up and accept that you are going to have an awkward decision for an awkward amount of chips in an awkward spot.  This is one of them imo. Those that want to get about a third of their chips in now are either going to buy themselves out of trouble or magnify the awkwardness of the rest of the hand, whatever action unfolds.  

My vote is to not get the max out of it on the flop but also not putting ourselves in an awkward spot in an inflated pot here and see what the BB does and then assuming he gets out of the way, see what the turn brings.  

It isn't a black and white best play for sure -- if the CO is as described, we are fixing to play a pot with him OOP and with him having  a fairly good idea of what we have - a good-ish but vulnerable made hand or a prime draw.  Rather than use 15-20k of chips c/r'ing the flop, maybe we can use the same amount of chips to lead the turn?

Not really. I am with Cos in my hatred for people who call something like this on the flop and then lead out on the turn. If you flat on the flop you have to check the turn to them. the problem with that is that you might giive away two free cards as they might check behind you.

It's a tricky spot but I'm still in favour of flatting this on the flop and checking the turn to them.

Me and Simon vs Greek & Boldie then because I agree with this. Especially the best use of those 20k in chips. When you call the flop the villains can easily put you on a draw due to flop texture (nothing stopping BB or UTG squeezing their own draw by the way...rather than 100% folding their draw if you raise). If you weak lead/blocker a safe turn (but make it look strong in appearance) the serial cut-off raiser can easily decide to jam based on that weak lead alone....just like he’s raising the weak UTG flop bet. Don’t forget he’s the one who’s been representing strength here...and he has the chips and the momentum to do this. So if you raise the flop the only jamming action you get is sets/prime draws, whereas weak leading the turn gets a wider range jamming cos you still have a decent stack & they perceive their FE is higher than it actually is. This is better poker imo.

Good points Mantis and Simon and I'm trying to be less stubborn and take things on board even when I disagree.

My action would be to lead the flop 100% of the time here. Couple this with the fact I rarely play pots OOP it is an unfamiliar one for me.

What turn cards are you happy to get it in on?

Ok guys. Thanks for all the views. I think taking everything into account that I may have made a mistake with this hand. The good player involved was james akenhead. Fwiw my view was this, he had been very active and was 3betting for fun, however at any showdowns he almost every time had the goods or was drawing to the near nuts. I gave this a bit of thought on the flop before checking, and once the action had got back to me I believed I could discount the bb and utg from having any further interest in the hand. When he bet 10k on the flop, I got the impression he was quite strong and wasn't just trying to represent strength. I decided to make it 32k to play. I hate flat calling on the flop in this spot with two players behind. I'm going to hate any turn above a 5, especially if the blinds stay in. as it happened they both passed and james tanked for a few minutes before folding bottom 2. FML. Bad beat in a way, because without being disrepectful to the other players at the table I get 4bet all in 100% of the time there imo.

Thanks all.

Bah!  long reply and I just leaned my tit into the keyboard and wiped it!

Cliff notes:
Q or T we play for stacks ldo
2-6 we play for stacks, but not particularly happy about it.
A and 7 are really bad cards.
9 is a pretty bad card
K and J are so so.

This is where Mantis might disown me, but my suggestion for that 15k chip utilisation was to lead all of these flops.  We have some balance as it isn't an out and out donk bet.  We don't like putting chips into the pot without a decent plan of what to do next, so we have a default plan in mind, but we aren't married to it.  Probably the 7 is the absolute worst card as it means a donked overpair is good and bottom 2 gets there.  Evrything else it gives CO some problems?

Very unlucky to get a fold of bottom 2 there at Equal Chance Vinny, vul.

Akenhead's a good one though, well played him

You were the sb you donk!!


QFT, but that is why I think Mantis and I weren't as hopeful that we were going to get a billed very good player to stack off when you raised.  Hence the smooth, and maybe you get your man on the turn.  If he is still good enough to get away, well not much you can do...

Lol its like listening to myself  :D

I have history with James

Knowing who it was I would have overjammed all in. It looks like a scared donkey play! (which i can pull off with ease  ;)  )

i think you played it right! It takes someone of James' class to get away from bottom 2!

However - it would have also been someone in James' class who takes you off your hand when the scare card comes!

No wonder they call him Sickdog. Great laydown.

How come he isn't in vegas?

Back over here for a week or so then going back to vegas.

Why would you want to do that? Think about that statement really hard, you'll benefit if you do.

Celtic, your raise size was too big. Making it 24k is better, that few K can sometimes make people believe that you can / might fold if they ship. It's a classy fold from villain, but you need to think about your overall game if he is able to fold here. Like, if situations were reversed, would you fold his hand to him? I think not.

fwiw, I like leading / 3 betting / getting it in much better than playing for a checkraise. If I was in your spot I'd be looking to get as much money in on the flop as possible.

Yup- I like raise to 22k to induce as said previously.

Welcome back Lloyd..now stick around dammit!

because with 160k stack he can call 24k (ie 14 more) with very good implied odds to hit his draw (he is calling 14 into 46k) - thats why. The size of the villains stack is important to.

I dont want him to just call. Ok you could argue that he is only going to see 1 card. However, if the scare card comes (which wasnt his) and you check, he gets the free shot at the river.

I am very happy to get it all in here. Calling the 35k would be a mathematical error - calling the 24k - not so much!

I have told you my pref is to take down the 22k in the pot and add 1/3 to my stack!

Stop worrying about things like protection and avoiding outdraws and concentrate more on getting value from weaker holdings. Yeah sometimes, we'll get counterfeited / binked off on the turn. So what? Other times we'll get KQ / QJ / bottom two / the straight draw to give us value over another street.

Lead out, especially against a good player....check/raise from the blinds is almost always 2 pair or better..... If you decide to check/raise an overshove might work out as it looks drawy, you look far too strong with your line.

If I had a hand where i thought i could extract max value then i would. If I held Q7 and the board came Q72 - i would happliy play like you suggest. This particular board smashes his range so hard that you simply dont know where you are if any A K J 9 8 7. That for all intents and purposes is half the deck. So, half the deck against the odds of 3:1 and the implied odds of the rest of your stack just isnt worth it in this scenario (against good or bad players).

turned into a fascinating thread, ty everyone.

since when has a checkraise meant 2 pair+? seriously we should be bluffing here a chunk of the time and playing a lot of draws like this too.

celtic, did he actually show you bottom 2? with your own eyes. If so sick laydown, but terrible show imo.

Because we're all pretty card smart...when a flop comes down we automatically know where the danger lies. However if you account for every eventuality you will be over-egging the cake imo. If we go to the turn giving our oppo half the deck we will be putting ourelves at a serious disadvantage. Your oppo only has 2 cards so wont/can't need every card you've tagged as dangerous here. That's if he's drawing at all. It's obv raising the flop will be more attractive to you if you fear all those cards. But IF a 6 comes he MUST hold 8-9...IF a 9 comes he MUST have K-J. This all becomes more specific than half the deck makes you a loser.

The fold is decent. But it looks better than it is because Celtic has to make that move with 1 pair or less for villain to be wrong. Does Celtic make that move with such holdings? We can all aspire to do that..and sometimes we may...but when you're actually sitting there it's a tougher ask than saying you would on the forum. So by playing the hand this way you give villain every excuse to fold. However, if you weak lead the turn...but make your body language strong...and pad the smallish bet with low denom chips you give quality villain some stuff to break down...small bet trying to look strong etc...and you give him much more of an excuse to think he's ahead than raising the re-raise on the flop. Agree with Tighty thou, great hand to discuss.

The way this hand has played out on the flop the check raise meant exactly that (2 pr+). I would prefer the overshove instead of the check raise fwiw cos the overshove is a lot weaker imo and more likely to get called.

PS loyd post more

Yeah he showed it Alex. I told him good fold and that one day he may have a future in poker :D

I never make that move with less than two pair Mantis ;)

James has never played against me before this comp so doesn't really know how i play or what i'm capable or not capable of.

I'd further that a bit. I think the important thing is to make sure that checkraising and leading don't correspond to different hand strengths. You can't be checkraising two pair + and bet, 3 betting draws; or bet 3 betting 2 pair + and checkraising draws. A check raise is good here if you do show up with draws / top pair (or more importantly are thought capable of showing up with such hands). But if you would normally lead such holdings, then you need to be leading this flop.

There's nothing groundbreaking in me repeating that idea though of course.

Nope but you put it so well

Post more

FWIW I thnk celtic was just unlucky that Akenhead is sick good to lay this down. Most people we're stacking here.

i was sick when he folded 10 7 face up. Anyone else on the table or even left in the comp and i was up to 170k ffs.

I find more often than not a c/r outta the blinds is the standard play for 2 pair+  With no history with OP Id put him on 2 pair or better here and would think bottom 2 is in bad shape.  If you're capable of taking this line as a bluff and Akenhead knows this then its not a bad line to take here but if I say you want to take the line that leaves your opponent guessing how strong you are then Im not telling you anything you dont already know.

Just to step in to akenhead's shoes for a minute...

Would he consider that i may have 78, J9 or JK here?

If you had those hands would you raise it to the amount you did? 

I think if you overshoved it puts those hands into your range more easily

i hope that you arent calling me a loser - but my 'cards'

the point I am making is that his limp raange includes all the following hands

AQ
AJ
KJ
QJ
89
109
TJ
ATs
A7s

it is impossible to narrow that range down if he has been limping alot and by flat calling his 10k bet

I am not saying i fear every card - i am just saying there is no way to narrow that range

I agree that flat calling the bet on the flop makes it more likely we can get more money in on the next two streets.

Where I disagree is that I don't want to be playing a pot for my entire stack, OOP, against a very good player, not knowing where I am when the turn card comes. I just think flatting here is suicidal unless we decide to stack off here to every turn/river with the aim of getting our chips in.

The 2nd day has just started in a £350 comp. Nobody at the table is under any real pressure to make moves. UTG is a complete unknown. You don't know what his flop bet means, it could be anything. The big stack who's got double your chips raises unknown UTG. He is a good player. You read him as strong. He has shown strong hands. You don't think he's bluffing. There are 2 players to act behind you. With this evidence before you who would really raise 32k out of 85k with 1 pair or a draw? In theory & from the keyboard you can do this easily. But actually sitting at the table that's gonna be a big big risky & perhaps reckless move...and the majority of people just wont be doing that. If we agree with that assumption...and it's very difficult not to imo...the fact that villain has never played hero before leads villain to conclude hero is one of the many who just wont make that move with such hands. So if you agree with Lloyd here about balancing, which I do, it means in this specific scenario the c-raise has even less credibility.

Well summarised imo. Hope my next hand i post is as popular.

Mantis did u not say you could make this move with air? If we do this with air, do we not do it with the made hand?

I still think re raising is the correct course of action but would make it smaller to induce

Nah dude, I never said that. I said this....

George, I would only raise to take the pot down on the flop...cos I reckon raising should take the pot down.

While I was one of the guys who said I reckon raising the flop takes it down....what I reckon sitting here is very different to what we do in reality. And as such I have proved my own point...I think. I'm never making that move with air really....and that's why I'm not c-raising with 2 pair.

so basically whenever you offer advice on this board it's different to what you would actually do??  :dontask:

You've lost me now. My advice was to call not raise. That was my advice and that is what I would actually do. One of the reasons I wouldn't raise is because I reckon villain folds if I do. Another reason is to balance the way I play hands. Thinking villain could fold if you raise doesn't mean you MUST raise with air based solely on that one hunch. I prob raise with bottom two in this type of situation...hence "I would only raise to take the pot down". Not sure how that translates to whenever I offer advice on this board it's not what I'd actually do?

I reckon climbing Everest would be a great achievement...but I'm not going to do it myself. Do I need to climb Everest to hold that opinion?

After all the discussion this looks like an absolutely perfect spot to semi-bluff with KJ type hands. All the better when 2 pair gets laid down.

100%, stacks are perfect for shoving the turn too.......

Q10 with two limpers behind. All in pre imo. Get a game ffs.