top two in the sb

[GreekStein]

The problem is the gay 2k bet. Now having to re-raise both looks uber strong.

This..anything other than flatting looks very strong..flatting at least makes it look like you could be drawing.

It's a tricky situation this; You flat. BB gets odds to call with any draw (if he has one) and there are plenty turn cards that would complete a draw and you are OOP. You flat and look like you're drawing, even if neither of the other guys are too many turn cards kill your action.

You raise and you might as well have your hand face up..if neither of the guys have a big hand (bottom two+) you have just killed your action as well.

I prefer flatting but would Hollywood it for a while and just hope they buy it.

I don't think he can flat with 70k behind and one person still to act. He doesn't really want the pot small with people drawing against his hand. I think raising now is the right play but its unfortunate that a decent player can lay down a strongish hand which they might not have done if we were only raising one bet.

Check-reraising is just too strong.

It's a bit of a bastard this spot (when it comes to getting the max out of it), you're out of position and almost everything you do now is going to look strong. I don't mind keeping a draw in on the turn TBH..I just want as much money as possible in the pot now as I'm almost certainly still ahead.
I therefore think flatting might be the best way to achieve that (The problem is of course that you're still OOP on the turn and might find it goes, check, check..and then you've given two free cards away)

Which cards would you be happy to get it in with on the turn?

[boldie]

The problem is the gay 2k bet. Now having to re-raise both looks uber strong.

This..anything other than flatting looks very strong..flatting at least makes it look like you could be drawing.

It's a tricky situation this; You flat. BB gets odds to call with any draw (if he has one) and there are plenty turn cards that would complete a draw and you are OOP. You flat and look like you're drawing, even if neither of the other guys are too many turn cards kill your action.

You raise and you might as well have your hand face up..if neither of the guys have a big hand (bottom two+) you have just killed your action as well.

I prefer flatting but would Hollywood it for a while and just hope they buy it.

I don't think he can flat with 70k behind and one person still to act. He doesn't really want the pot small with people drawing against his hand. I think raising now is the right play but its unfortunate that a decent player can lay down a strongish hand which they might not have done if we were only raising one bet.

Check-reraising is just too strong.

It's a bit of a bastard this spot (when it comes to getting the max out of it), you're out of position and almost everything you do now is going to look strong. I don't mind keeping a draw in on the turn TBH..I just want as much money as possible in the pot now as I'm almost certainly still ahead.
I therefore think flatting might be the best way to achieve that (The problem is of course that you're still OOP on the turn and might find it goes, check, check..and then you've given two free cards away)

Which cards would you be happy to get it in with on the turn?

On a Q 10 7 rainbow flop. 2.3.4.5. Q 10, 7 obv. (forgot that a 7 might counterfeit you with a donkish played monster pair)  With the way the pre flop action went I'm thinking 8-9 is a fairly unlikely holding (UTG won't have limped with it and cut off would probably have raised with it) so I'm OK with a 6 and a J  as well.

Essentially the only cards I don't want to see are the Ace and 9 that complete the high straight draw and the K 8 as J9 is a tasty holding here  and KQ would counterfeit your top two.

[GreekStein]

89, J9, KJ, KQ, QJ type hands are all possible. Being OOP I really don't think we can afford to get really funky and flat here. I think this play just leads to us losing value.

By raising our hand is face up as very strong but at least we put a decision on the other two players and essentially we are trying to induce them to play for stacks with holdings like KQ KJ etc.

We can't lead on the turn having flatted pre. We may as well stand on the table and scream 'I've got you all by the bollocks'. By checking we're giving potentially 2 free cards and stand only to win a small pot when its clear our opponents or at least one opponent has an interest in that board.

It would just be a bit of a train wreck in a limped pot OOP I think.

[daviebhoy]

Anything to be said for over-bet shoving the flop ?

I would lead here hoping for the raise but as played I am not wanting to go 3 way to the turn which looks like happening a good bit of the time if we flat call. The over-bet shoves looks weaker than a raise imo and you get it in right now. Badly played overpairs, Qx and JJ and T7 are likely to call. The set being out is extremely unlikely and I don't like giving free cards to two players who may be drawing to beat my made hand.

[outragous76]

Anything to be said for over-bet shoving the flop ?

Its just wayyyyyy to much - like 65k into a 22k pot

It seems to me that this kind of spot breaks out the player that you are

You know that half of the deck are scare cards. So if you are happy to chip up 1/3 of your stack raise and take it

If you want to play for deception  - flat and reassess.

What happens if you flat and UTG moves all in and MP reshoves to ISO? Is it 100% a fold?

Then lets say UTG exposes his hand as AA - would you then lean towards calling?

[MANTIS01]

89, J9, KJ, KQ, QJ type hands are all possible. Being OOP I really don't think we can afford to get really funky and flat here. I think this play just leads to us losing value.

By raising our hand is face up as very strong but at least we put a decision on the other two players and essentially we are trying to induce them to play for stacks with holdings like KQ KJ etc.

We can't lead on the turn having flatted pre. We may as well stand on the table and scream 'I've got you all by the bollocks'. By checking we're giving potentially 2 free cards and stand only to win a small pot when its clear our opponents or at least one opponent has an interest in that board.

It would just be a bit of a train wreck in a limped pot OOP I think.

Buddy, in the final 20 of a decent comp like this are you going to shove your comfortable stack in with zero FE after bet, raise, re-raise, holding K-Q or K-J? The only decision you give your oppos by raising is how quickly to muck imo. Therefore, it is raising that loses you value. If leading the turn after flatting the flop screams “I’ve got you by the bollocks” then when you have K-J you should call the flop and lead the turn. In fact, call flop-lead turn should be your default with any draw if it looks so incred strong. This is a good hand for debate thou & I think this discussion only gives credibility to leading the flop into 3 villains including 1 serial 3-bettor. Checking to raise here tells your oppos you have best hand and gives worse hands an easy fold, is that good poker?. You wanna make it easy for your oppos just in case you may make it harder for yourself.

[GreekStein]

89, J9, KJ, KQ, QJ type hands are all possible. Being OOP I really don't think we can afford to get really funky and flat here. I think this play just leads to us losing value.

By raising our hand is face up as very strong but at least we put a decision on the other two players and essentially we are trying to induce them to play for stacks with holdings like KQ KJ etc.

We can't lead on the turn having flatted pre. We may as well stand on the table and scream 'I've got you all by the bollocks'. By checking we're giving potentially 2 free cards and stand only to win a small pot when its clear our opponents or at least one opponent has an interest in that board.

It would just be a bit of a train wreck in a limped pot OOP I think.

Buddy, in the final 20 of a decent comp like this are you going to shove your comfortable stack in with zero FE after bet, raise, re-raise, holding K-Q or K-J? The only decision you give your oppos by raising is how quickly to muck imo. Therefore, it is raising that loses you value. If leading the turn after flatting the flop screams “I’ve got you by the bollocks” then when you have K-J you should call the flop and lead the turn. In fact, call flop-lead turn should be your default with any draw if it looks so incred strong. This is a good hand for debate thou & I think this discussion only gives credibility to leading the flop into 3 villains including 1 serial 3-bettor. Checking to raise here tells your oppos you have best hand and gives worse hands an easy fold, is that good poker?. You wanna make it easy for your oppos just in case you may make it harder for yourself.

Decent comp like this? What makes you say it's decent? Prob has all of about 3/4 good players in the last 20.

In these places the players are shit and I wouldn't put it past someone to go crazy and ship KQ/KJ here.

Fold equity!? If you said that at the table everyone would probably think you were talking about Origami.

I agree with you that the flop should have been led, 100% but don't like your suggested line with KJ.

[Simon Galloway]

By raising our hand is face up as very strong

We can't lead on the turn having flatted pre. We may as well stand on the table and scream 'I've got you all by the bollocks'.

Looks like you are going to have to give your hand away either way then.

It's nice to be able to make strong plays that make the next street easier to play, extract the max from every pot, fill up on the turn, be so short in chips that it plays itself, etc.

Sometimes I think you have to suck it up and accept that you are going to have an awkward decision for an awkward amount of chips in an awkward spot.  This is one of them imo. Those that want to get about a third of their chips in now are either going to buy themselves out of trouble or magnify the awkwardness of the rest of the hand, whatever action unfolds.  

My vote is to not get the max out of it on the flop but also not putting ourselves in an awkward spot in an inflated pot here and see what the BB does and then assuming he gets out of the way, see what the turn brings.  

It isn't a black and white best play for sure -- if the CO is as described, we are fixing to play a pot with him OOP and with him having  a fairly good idea of what we have - a good-ish but vulnerable made hand or a prime draw.  Rather than use 15-20k of chips c/r'ing the flop, maybe we can use the same amount of chips to lead the turn?

[boldie]

By raising our hand is face up as very strong

We can't lead on the turn having flatted pre. We may as well stand on the table and scream 'I've got you all by the bollocks'.

Looks like you are going to have to give your hand away either way then.

It's nice to be able to make strong plays that make the next street easier to play, extract the max from every pot, fill up on the turn, be so short in chips that it plays itself, etc.

Sometimes I think you have to suck it up and accept that you are going to have an awkward decision for an awkward amount of chips in an awkward spot.  This is one of them imo. Those that want to get about a third of their chips in now are either going to buy themselves out of trouble or magnify the awkwardness of the rest of the hand, whatever action unfolds.  

My vote is to not get the max out of it on the flop but also not putting ourselves in an awkward spot in an inflated pot here and see what the BB does and then assuming he gets out of the way, see what the turn brings.  

It isn't a black and white best play for sure -- if the CO is as described, we are fixing to play a pot with him OOP and with him having  a fairly good idea of what we have - a good-ish but vulnerable made hand or a prime draw.  Rather than use 15-20k of chips c/r'ing the flop, maybe we can use the same amount of chips to lead the turn?

Not really. I am with Cos in my hatred for people who call something like this on the flop and then lead out on the turn. If you flat on the flop you have to check the turn to them. the problem with that is that you might giive away two free cards as they might check behind you.

It's a tricky spot but I'm still in favour of flatting this on the flop and checking the turn to them.

[MANTIS01]

By raising our hand is face up as very strong

We can't lead on the turn having flatted pre. We may as well stand on the table and scream 'I've got you all by the bollocks'.

Looks like you are going to have to give your hand away either way then.

It's nice to be able to make strong plays that make the next street easier to play, extract the max from every pot, fill up on the turn, be so short in chips that it plays itself, etc.

Sometimes I think you have to suck it up and accept that you are going to have an awkward decision for an awkward amount of chips in an awkward spot.  This is one of them imo. Those that want to get about a third of their chips in now are either going to buy themselves out of trouble or magnify the awkwardness of the rest of the hand, whatever action unfolds.  

My vote is to not get the max out of it on the flop but also not putting ourselves in an awkward spot in an inflated pot here and see what the BB does and then assuming he gets out of the way, see what the turn brings.  

It isn't a black and white best play for sure -- if the CO is as described, we are fixing to play a pot with him OOP and with him having  a fairly good idea of what we have - a good-ish but vulnerable made hand or a prime draw.  Rather than use 15-20k of chips c/r'ing the flop, maybe we can use the same amount of chips to lead the turn?

Me and Simon vs Greek & Boldie then because I agree with this. Especially the best use of those 20k in chips. When you call the flop the villains can easily put you on a draw due to flop texture (nothing stopping BB or UTG squeezing their own draw by the way...rather than 100% folding their draw if you raise). If you weak lead/blocker a safe turn (but make it look strong in appearance) the serial cut-off raiser can easily decide to jam based on that weak lead alone....just like he’s raising the weak UTG flop bet. Don’t forget he’s the one who’s been representing strength here...and he has the chips and the momentum to do this. So if you raise the flop the only jamming action you get is sets/prime draws, whereas weak leading the turn gets a wider range jamming cos you still have a decent stack & they perceive their FE is higher than it actually is. This is better poker imo.

[GreekStein]

Good points Mantis and Simon and I'm trying to be less stubborn and take things on board even when I disagree.

My action would be to lead the flop 100% of the time here. Couple this with the fact I rarely play pots OOP it is an unfamiliar one for me.

What turn cards are you happy to get it in on?

[celtic]

Ok guys. Thanks for all the views. I think taking everything into account that I may have made a mistake with this hand. The good player involved was james akenhead. Fwiw my view was this, he had been very active and was 3betting for fun, however at any showdowns he almost every time had the goods or was drawing to the near nuts. I gave this a bit of thought on the flop before checking, and once the action had got back to me I believed I could discount the bb and utg from having any further interest in the hand. When he bet 10k on the flop, I got the impression he was quite strong and wasn't just trying to represent strength. I decided to make it 32k to play. I hate flat calling on the flop in this spot with two players behind. I'm going to hate any turn above a 5, especially if the blinds stay in. as it happened they both passed and james tanked for a few minutes before folding bottom 2. FML. Bad beat in a way, because without being disrepectful to the other players at the table I get 4bet all in 100% of the time there imo.

Thanks all.

[Simon Galloway]

Bah!  long reply and I just leaned my tit into the keyboard and wiped it!

Cliff notes:
Q or T we play for stacks ldo
2-6 we play for stacks, but not particularly happy about it.
A and 7 are really bad cards.
9 is a pretty bad card
K and J are so so.

This is where Mantis might disown me, but my suggestion for that 15k chip utilisation was to lead all of these flops.  We have some balance as it isn't an out and out donk bet.  We don't like putting chips into the pot without a decent plan of what to do next, so we have a default plan in mind, but we aren't married to it.  Probably the 7 is the absolute worst card as it means a donked overpair is good and bottom 2 gets there.  Evrything else it gives CO some problems?

[TightEnd]

Very unlucky to get a fold of bottom 2 there at Equal Chance Vinny, vul.

Akenhead's a good one though, well played him

[Simon Galloway]

I could discount the sb and bb from having any further interest in the hand.

You were the sb you donk!!

Bad beat in a way, because without being disrepectful to the other players at the table I get 4bet all in 100% of the time there imo.

QFT, but that is why I think Mantis and I weren't as hopeful that we were going to get a billed very good player to stack off when you raised.  Hence the smooth, and maybe you get your man on the turn.  If he is still good enough to get away, well not much you can do...