blonde poker forum

The following occurred in a Live MTT last night.

Whilst I know both of the protagonists well, I'm interested in people's thoughts on the situation and not in flaming individuals. Keep all comments temperate please. What about the TD's reaction and what your attitude would be as the player who wins the hand?

There is 6,000 in the pot and a board reading QQ798.

Player B has 99. Player A is reliably said to have had Q10, though this is hearsay.

Player A checks and Player B went all in for 6500

Player A had 5700 left, one white chip, one purple, two grey in three stacks.

He piled one on top of the other, picks them up said "Oh well, you can't win them all" and pushed his hand forward in mid-air.

That's when Player B turned his cards over. I assume he thinks he has been called

So Player A then pulls his chips back and asks the dealer what his options are.

The dealer insta called for a ruling.

The ruling was given in Player A's favour -  he hasn't called, he can call or fold.


Comments please

sounds fine to me

Sound the right ruling given the situation, as he didn't say call or put his chips over the line. If you were there, did it look like player B was deliberately pulling a fast one? If so he shouldn't really be making those kind of comments, having said that its player A's responsibility to check the other guy has actually called before turning his cards over.

It is assumed to be an Angle Shoot by Player A, though of course a TD cannot know one way or the other

there has to be more to it than you've put or you wouldn't have bothered posting. the ruling is about as straightforward as they come

^^Agree with this evaluation

Nope

Does Player B have the right to feel aggrieved was the other part of the OP, aside from the straightforward ruling

no. if you're going to show people your cards halfway through a hand you've got to expect them to make good decisions against you

The pump fake is obviously angle shooting. Hard to punish though, he has broken no rules. A lot of poker players will go to any lengths to improve their chances of winning.

I am the TD: I make the same ruling that the TD in this situation has made.

I am player B: I note that A is an angle-shooter. I tell myself that I now wait for the dealer to ask me to open my hand should I get into this situation again. Sod it if it slows play down.

At his own impatience? Totally.

give player b a penalty for exposing his cards

Clarification on what you mean when you say he pushed his hand forward in mid air?

He gathered his chips in his hand and put the hand, raised above the felt, over the betting line whilst making his comment

Do Luton not have a rule in place for forward motion.

At some places it's binding as a call, in others he's allowed to now pass.

he was allowed to pass

I dont see how this is even really angle shooting? If your about to call and the guy decides to flip his hand face up hows that player A's fault?

Player B should be aggrieved that he hasnt learnt to contain his excitment enough yet!

Rookie error- right ruling unless there is a forward motion rule

no you dont

other day in a small crapshoot i missed a guy calling my raise as my view was blocked i exposed my hand everyone at table saw it apart from the caller,
there was 1000tc in pot i had 1100 back and he had me covered by about 1000
i had AJ and the flop came KQ5 it goes check check T on turn and he goes to bet out, table all start laughing and then its decided that seeing everyone has seen my hand i have to show it, i do he now check calls my all in raise with his 2 pair

lolz, nice

Wasn't there last night but from reading your post tighty, player a done nothing wrong and player b is an idiot for exposing his hand.  

well long term its nice

want nice on the night

oopps where do i put my 50p

For me this is a blatent angle shoot by Player A.

That said, he hasn't technically called.

Ruling:

Assuming no house rule killing dead hands: Player A can do what he likes

Warn player B to be more careful, and not to prematurely expose cards until his opponent says "call" or places the chips on the felt.

Warn player A that this type of angle shooting is against the spirit of the game. If he does it again he can expect some sort of penalty.

It reads to me like player A was just trying to get a reaction from the player B.  Nothing necessarily sinister about it.  Just was making like he was calling to see how the guy reacted.  Which he did stupidly by instantly flipping his hand over. 

I agree with this, certainly as things were explained in op

Why is it angle shooting?

If you were about to call and someone shoves their cards in your face and your losing you still call?

Player B is incredibly handsome* and gifted at poker if this makes any difference?

*not Paul Ephremsen

u sure i cant remember being there

Player A def angle shooting

Ruling is OK I suppose

Player B should make a mential note to slow roll player A next time and say "i just wanted to make sure that all your chips were over the line" after tanking and waiting for the clock to get to 1 second!

correct ruling, lessons learnt I guess.

Looking at it from Player A's point of view, if my chips hadn't gone over the line and I hadn't said 'call' I'd be wanting to take my chips back as well once player B has prematurely exposed his hand.  I heard about the hand, but didn't witness it. I know the feeling from those at the table is that it was an angle shoot, but player A does have a tendency to be a bit dramatic in his actions sometimes.

thought tikay had the night off

The guy hasn't got much etiquette to pull a stunt like that but then again you're at the poker table so you should be alive to the possibility of angle-shooting. If a guy does that flip one 9 and say ffs...then enjoy his snap call. Player B was one step behind when he should be looking to be one step ahead. While this is poor form you can still see this type of behaviour as an opportunity. It's only an outrage when it happens to you imo...and it shouldn't happen to you imo.

does he have very hairy arms?

Given the info available I think the ruling is correct (unusual for the G!)

Player A's actions are highly questionable, but at the end of the day player B made the mistake and suffered the consequences.

And I think player A should have been given a warning.

Why was he exited - he had something like the 8th nuts. 

Cardrooms should have pointy hats with a big "A" for angle-shooter written on them.  The likes of player A should be allowed to play only if they wear one of the pointy hats.

This thread is BULL!!

lol

are you all telling me that if your ABOUT to call and someone flips there hand to show your losing you COMPLETE your call???

unless someone knows more about this than has been posted then I would suggest everyone would do the same as player A

Yeah he had the 8th nuts but why would you instaflip your hand if you werent excited about winning the pot.

Lets change the board to AAxxx and your about to call with your straight chips in hand and the guy your about to call flips AA and shouts 'F U I HAVE THE FRICKIN QUADS BABY' do you all still put your chips in and say 'well i was gonna call before he did that so i suppose its only right that i still call?????

Someone please explain what I am missing, with only the info on here player A appears to have done nothing wrong.

I was going to make a similar point but you've said it just as good as I would.

I don't think anyone has said anything to the contrary ???

Everyone saying player A should get a warning etc and that he was angleshooting.

ah yeah, soz -  I thought Stu was saying that people on the thread had said he should be held to the call.

We all know what the correct ruling is technically, but its the possible angle shoot that is the potential problem. Sure there are those that say 'the rules are the rules and that's that, fk the newbie', but if you have someone deliberately taking advantage of a newer player then that's just wrong. If this is not the first time they have done it, its probably just because they are a shit player and can't win any other way.

How is it an angleshoot though?

He picks his chips up, goes to call and the player exposes his cards. He then asks the dealer what the ruling is and the ruling is agreed that he is allowed to make a decision still.

Like any of you wouldnt do the same in Player A's shoes. Player B's mistake.

OK it could have been a genuine error, but you know what I'm talking about we have all seen it at the table at some point or other. You can normally work out if it is an angle shoot or not. I would never do it deliberately, or say/do any random shit other than 'call' that may encourage the other player to turn over his cards.

Player B's mistake; YES. But brought about by some iffy shenanigans by Player A (IMO).

iffy shenanigans?

You tell me what you would have done differently in player A's shoes, when you go to put your chips across the line but player B shows you his cards?

I think your missing what we are saying, its whether he deliberately made it look like he was going to, knowing the guy might be a newbie and flip his cards. I know your going to say well the chips weren't actually over the line so he shouldn't have flipped his cards. Its about whether he took advantage of of that situation. I think you know what I'm getting at, your just following the 'them's the rules, so tough shit' line I assume.

he makes every possible inferance that he is going to call to try and make player B make an error. Its an angle shoot no doubt about it!

i have never made a big palava about putting my chips in, i just slide them over the line (or forward) and roll my hand

its an angle shoot. full stop. not saying he should be penalised - but a mental note would be made of said player and filed into 'slowroll' folder (there are only 2 players in that BTW - it is very selective - and both because they super slow rolled me)

What if player A makes the call and player B then flips over his hand. And it's quad Aces. Player B screams 'F U I HAVE THE FRICKIN QUADS BABY' and then runs around the room punching the air. Then he gets down on the floor and does that caterpillar move all around the table constantly shouting FRICKIN QUADS FRICKIN QUADS. What has player B done wrong? He's not breaking any rules. However, he is being a dickhead, and he is behaving in a way that should be discouraged. The angle player A is shooting is getting info from player B by using a forward motion and comments to intimate he is calling the bet. It's dickhead behaviour. But I agree he does nothing technically wrong

I don't think it's necessarily that clear cut.

If he was in the process of putting his chips in, and the cards were turned over before they were actually in then that could just be that he made the most of player B's error - rather than that being his intention.

I don't think Tighty posts a thread about a simple mistake happening in a cardroom

orly

to quote the OP

He piled one on top of the other, picks them up said "Oh well, you can't win them all" and pushed his hand forward in mid-air.

lolololololol. that is about as selective a bit of quoting as you can get. let's try adding in the next line shall we?

As I said before, player A does have a bit of a habit of being dramatic. I don't think it was an angle shoot, I think he was just hamming up his call a bit. Player B (not a newbie and well known to player A) flipped his cards over too quickly as he knew he was going to be called - I'm sure he's kicking himself over it now. I wouldn't find myself in player A's position, because I would have just said 'call' if I was going to call, but given what's happened here, player A's amateur dramatics have given him the opportunity to pass and I don't think anyone can say they'd feel obliged to call in his shoes. Can't see it being a deliberate angle shoot myself, and I'm not aware of player A being known for angle shooting generally (sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong)

Is Tikay the angle-shooter?

No no

Neither player is a rookie, both are experienced players


Interesting debate, the prospect of which is why I posted it

;D

I think its situation dependant, you were there what do you think?

Oh right. Just Claw mentioned player A was prone to amateur dramatics and I thought about that powder puff Tikay carries around. So is the clue the word rookie? Nah, give up then.

I did not witness it but saw 20 people around the table as a verbal kerfuffle ensued around the ruling/player behaviour. The story of what preceded that was recounted to me by Player B who felt aggrieved with Player A.

This thread shows that his disappointment is questionable, I think.

I chose to keep the identities from this thread as I think tis easier all round to have a discussion without any personal flaming involved

Are the initials of player A TM?

if its not an abgle shoot why would you do it.

even subconciously you are looking for a reaction.

player B clearly makes the error - but player A gets the advantage from doing everything possible  to create the error. Even the nicest guys in the world like to win! If he didnt want to win he would follow through with his intended action

I think the discussion has finished now - if you post the names we can start the personal flaming and Blonde gets two threads in one, what value for money!

aha, now I know it was the ruling with 20 spectators [& just before the break], I know the 2 players involved.
Now it all makes sense !

this please

name, shame and flame

Timmy Mallet u mean?

did the players look at eachother and go 'bluuuurgh'?

Mantis I frickin love this post, I love the thought of someone doing the caterpillar/worm dance around the table as a rubdown. Would be the best thing ever imo and in no way being a dickhead.

But my point is that everyone is assuming this is an angleshoot/out of order thing to do.

Player A would spend hours doing this if he thought players were thick enough to flip their hands.
If he is hamming up his call a bit because he thinks he might be behind and the guy flips his hand before he has ACTUALLY called, you cant blame him for this or anything that ensues.

I haven't read all 5 pages as this is open & shut - player B is a complete fishdonk, 100% pwned by player A

In this situation mental agility is key. Player A is clearly not angle shooting but possesses lightning fast thought processes and reflexes.

I wouldn't be surprised if player B is from the Fens or somesuch

I don't know why Player A is hamming up a call with the Q-10 anyway. Surely this is an insta-muck when Player B jams the river? I mean what does player A think he's beating in this spot? Player B is an experienced player, no doubt there's been considerable action through the streets, and here he is jamming the river. Minimum for player B is K-Q imo. Yet here is sad player A on the end completely lost in the hand and having to rely on a technicality to save his chips.

Also, upon reflection, maybe the caterpillar dance would be ok if you flopped quads.

Contrary to previous comments, Player B is not a rookie or a donk.

Some would say he's a reasonably good player; it has even been stated elsewhere that he's the best player on sky!

And [apparently] he's incredibly handsome.

8-)

Drainy

Drainy obv had his acct hacked into by chompy.

Player a wasn't angle shooting, not smart enough to do that, just took advantage of a situation that occured.

Don't turn your hand over until the Dealer asks you to show and take. Then regardless of what dramatics are played out for the benefit of information gathering, you are not going to find yourself in this predicament. Unfortunate, I don't disagree, but I can't find it in myself to blame the man for using the extra information granted him.

gutted.
just typed a long post to this and my lappy somehow lost it all b4 i hit POST.
can't be bothered to type it all again.

general gist woz, it can't have been chompy cos he's retired.

player a woz deffo angle shooting but just didnt realise it.

[almost] all players woulda withdrawn action once player b prematurely showed his hand.
that's not the point.
nobody disputes the ruling once it happened.
again that's not the point

the point is it woz player A's behaviour which incited player B's turnover.

woz players A's behaviour accidental, intentional, angle-shooting, innocent, malicious, skilful, blah blah blah
only player A knows.

my personal view is that woz that it was "iffy", but I didn't see the hand (just the aftermath!)

nite!