blonde poker forum

Apologies if this has been shown before but its the fist time Ive seen the incident.

Obviously Roland has acted naively but shocking behaviour from the German player IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr2agX80ZyE

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=44062.msg1038485#msg1038485

Nothing wrong with what the German did - it was the most genuinely imaginative piece of poker I can remember seeing - the bluff call.

Absolutely nothing wrong with what the German did - Roland was bang out of order for kicking up a fuss - he has played enough to know that all the needs to do is roll both cards - whats the point in flashing K high (or whatever it was  - not rewatched)

Ok Obv this has all been discussed before, and I am way behind as per......

In my view when RDW declares he has K High the other guy should concede the pot.

That aside as stated before RDW has made a schoolboy error and by the rules of the game loses the pot.

he he, try that down at stoke circus mate. Just show your hand ffs.

Is this topic a blonde record for the number of different threads about it?

Tobias is trying to win the pot by tricking his opponent into thinking he has K-high beat, at showdown, after all action is completed. If that is not underhanded and against the spirit of fair play then what is?

Tobias sez he has 'a nice hand' to make Roland think that K high is good. He later explains he was referring to his nice busted draws. What a load of bllx. I think he is a liar.

Tobias called Roland, Roland needs to show his hand or muck. Tobias did nothing wrong.

That ^^

If Roland just flips his cards LIKE HE SHOULD, there would be no controversy.

I despise the dallying at showdown, whoever makes the call, the other player should just flip immediately ffs.

I 100% agree with this. I was delighted when the german guy referenced the fact that roland didn't want to showdown and therefore it was his own fault. The only way for RDW to lose that pot was FOR HIM to incorrectly act at showdown which he did. Cards speak, you've been called turn the face up..... or suck it up.

I'm all for turning your hand over at showdown but have some of you people honestly not watched this or something?

This is pure filth from the German, just absolutely disgusting.

Maybe the minor rubdown when he thinks Roland has mucked, but that's it. I don't get this bollocks about turning one card over or announcing what you have, turn 'em or muck'em.

Against a new player this isn't ok. But against someone whos name everyone knows, he shoulda learnt showdown rules by now.


I watched this and all I thought of the clip was that RDW was an idiot.

But didn't roland de wolfe show K high? but only one card and mucked

Roland pushed his cards into the muck.... hand over.

he announced King high, then FORCIBLY (despite the dealer protesting and trying to flip the cards) put them UNDER THE MUCK.



his information is so importantly guarded that he lost the pot.

The way I see it though two wrongs don't make a right.

Yes Roland should have turned his hand but once the other guy sees the King he should just say, K high is good.

i think its total filth, tcehnically not cheating but a wankers trick it certainly is.

agree with rooks, ace, and cos here. ***** trick

+1

I agree that its filth, but if Roland had just turned his cards over, it never happens.

I'd fist pump him alright - without my glove on

+2

I've got an interesting one.

Last month at DTD my opponent called my turn bet and when I rolled my top pair  q kicker. He insta mucked. As reported by kev, the board could have run 5 to a straight (although I'm not sure it was accurate). However if it hit, could he claim half the pot to play the board or has he forfeited the right to do so?

Btw I think it was a secret blonde player from a subsequent post so steady on the abuse.

Did he call all-in on the turn, or just call a normal bet with chips back?

all in

Just realised of course it was all-in - otherwise there wouldn't have been a river...

In an all-in, it could be that, as cards go on their backs, the hand is automatically tabled by calling. Couldn't tell you what the DTD rule is though.

But he didn't table, his hand very much went into the muck like a rocket, thereby disadvantaging me in terms of info, like the fact I think he called me with K high

LOL info ... he called for all his chips, mucked his cards as soon as you flipped them, then left the table before the river was even dealt .... only explanation i can think of is he had a brain fart and thought the river had been dealt.

Kev you are 100% correct and I agree. The info is one of a wider point.

I even think he hit the river which fell a jack, cause he hadn't left the table and he looked horrified when the J fell!!!

I agree his hand should be dead, as he mucked it. But I'm sure I've heard of a rule used in some places that an all-in hand can't be mucked and can be retrieved and turned over (which is stupid).

Just like Roland's hand - the intention was clearly to muck without tabling so let the player do that. They can't then unmuck it once they see it's not a loser.

that would lead to too many angle shoots when jimmy mucks his hand with zero outs and claims his hand was something which would have outs in the hope that the cards his claims are in the muck, after all nearly half the decks in there

At DTD the rule is like most (decent) places, you need two cards as a receipt to claim the pot, or half the pot.

At DTD the rule is like most (decent) places, cards in the muck are dead cards and cannot come back out. There are exceptions to this rule but it will hardly ever happen.

So no it doesn't matter what the board was Outrageous, that guy cannot split the pot with you.

As far as the RDW hand is concerned, Tobias did not sit there waiting silently for RDW to flip his hand over. He actively led RDW to believe that RDW's K-high was no good, therefore RDW mucked it so he didn't have to show his kicker. This is the middle-late stages of a major tournament, RDW is not going to muck his hand unless he is sure that it is no good. Tobias saw the K-high then made references along the lines of 'my hand is a nice hand', i.e. muck your hand it is no good.

Then to top it all off he bangs the table and celebrates after managing to win the pot with the worst hand!

Speech play? come off it this is unacceptable behaviour.

Level 5 chip dumping imo

lol fine imo, RDW got pwned, turn your cards over son.

Lol sick value bet.

I could never do what he did and see the K8 and think ''oh shit he's winning, I need him to muck, I need to win this pot, pleaseee muck''

The victory slam down of the Q6 is ridiculous.

The final decision is right though, Roland did muck.

The guys paid to see RDW hand if he does not want to show it he should muck what he did, nothing wrong with what the other guy did imo

imo the dealer prevented him mucking.  If that is accepted his hand was still live.

Douchebag play by Tobias it comes to something when the only way you can win a pot is through angle shooting. he knew he was beat after being shown the K and im sure if the shoe was on the other foot he would have been outraged. If you refuse to show your hand at all like he Tobias did then he should have basically had no claim to the pot whether RDW had shown his full hand or announced his hand.

Wat?

Tobias didn't refuse to show his hand. He was second to show and immediately tabled his hand once Roland had eventually decided whether he was going table his hand or muck it.

If I remember it correctly, the dealer tried to, but Roland was persistent and forcefully mucked it.

yeah, I've not seen it since it happened but that's how I remember it

Out of interest, if the other player had insta-mucked his cards after Roland, what would happen to the pot?

I think the best solution all round is for the dealer to bang both player's heads together and start dealing the next hand as normal.

with how much the dealer tried to stop RDW mucking. it's completely his fault.

the idea that the other guy does anything out of line is so tilting. action is on RDW  TO SHOW BOTH CARDS BECAUSE ITS SHOWDOWN AND HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY OPTIONS.....

If you look closely the dealer appears to be of the opinion (rightly or wrongly) that Roland's cards should be shown down and although they touch the muck the dealer grabs them and turns them over when they are clearly identifiable.

The other guy IS out of line tho.

If that pot is between you and me and I flash you a King, whilst I might be a twat for not showing you my other card would you not say, 'it's good'?

But this is different to a normal scenario. Normally someone who makes the call will have something. He's done this presumably because he has an idea RDW has pretty much nothing too and won't want to show and he knows that's the only way he can win.

Stupid question time - if RDW mucks his cards and other bloke pushes his into the muck too - what would happen to the pot?

It was quoted, but no one actually answered it.

The other guy isn't out of line though because RDW really really deserved that to happen to him. So it is ok. If a guy is trying to be too cool for sckool at showdown and starts wtf flashing one card I think it is acceptable to try and make that guy look like a cock.

norrrr cos c'mmon!!

where is the action?



it's on RDW to SHOW BOTH CARDS AND LAY CLAIM TO THE CHIPS DANS LA MIDDLE.


 Kd x cannot win the pot, foreign bloke has done nothing wrong, he cant have action isn't on him yet.

Listen I know Roland is definitely the most wrong in this situation but I still think Renkenmeier should say to Roland his hand is good.

I imagined what would happen if I was in Tobias's shoes. I call thinking there's a chance Q hi is good. My opponent is being a knob by not showing both cards but upon flashing a King I would say 'yeah king is good, show both your cards'. I'd muck my hand and tell him he's a dousche for not immediately tabling his hand.
 

He's foreign, and didn't do his interview in english. cant he get some slack?


This is one of the things i hate about live.

river... pairs board. bet and a call. 'I have two pair' ' I have two pair'...... which two pairs......



RDW learns the showdown rules/doesn't value his information so highly he never loses the pot. For going to the effort of lifting the dealers fingers and forcing the cards into the muck he deserves to be shot in the face, the other guy has the right to see the cards he paid for even if hes then going to show the best hand.

The other bloke wins because he was the last person in the pot with a live hand.

So you don't have to show your hand at showdown to claim the pot?

Not sure about that one Kinboshi but I will be sure to ask tournament Dave. If I was TD and both players mucked at showdown I would definitely be looking at their cards (if retrievable) as this is obviously a collusion issue.

Kremser obviously awarded the pot to the guy with a live hand, and not to the guy who had mucked his hand. This is the right ruling of course.

My issue is with the underhanded behaviour of Tobias. Titanium Bean, you say that the 'action' is on RDW and it is his responsibility to turn both cards over. He doesn't turn both cards over, just flashes the King. He may as well have kept both cards face down, as flashing the King is effectively the same thing as saying 'K-high'. RDW says 'K-high' repeatedly.

Now here is the crux of the issue. While RDW is saying 'K-high', Tobias is not silently waiting for him to turn both cards over. Tobias asks him to turn both cards over - fair enough. When RDW doesn't turn both cards over, Tobias spies his opportunity to win this pot in an underhand way. He leads RDW to believe that Tobias has the best hand. He does this by making reference to his own hand as 'a nice hand', he does this with his body language and the way in which he asks RDW to show both cards.

Some would call it angle shooting, some would call it cheating.

I disagree the crux of the issue is in your first paragraph. Where it is on RDW to show BOTH CARDS TO WIN THE POT. Not one or declare a possible holding, SHOW BOTH TO WIN.

Tobias is the 2nd to act at showdown. and on seeing RDW's hand he can muck or show the winner. I dont see how he can be underhand whilst the action still isn't on him.

once RDW forcibly mucks his cards not only is it his fault but he's being underhand in his showdown etiquette, his opponent called his river bet he should get to see both cards.

That's how I see it anyway.

You can't blame people for taking advantage of dumb behaviour. There's a guy who I work with who at times can be plain dumb. Last week he was using the cash machine and when it said "Do you require another service?" he just walked off without retrieving his card. Yep, that's right. Plain dumb. He reckons the hot girl from the sandwich shop walked past and he got distracted. Anyway, when he realised what he'd done he raced back to the cashpoint. It appears the guy behind him in the queue required another service alright because the max withdrawel had been made. Now it's a shame people steal and I feel kinda sorry for this guy but it was his own dumb ass behaviour that allowed this to happen. Roland invited this. And it happened.

So if you were the guy behind him in the queue you would of taken his money too?

What was the ruling from the bank?

meh I dont see the comparison. but I do agree it was RDW's fault 100%. kudos to tobias for the bluff call.

Nobody is arguing about whether the right ruling was made... it was.

Is it OK to lie at the poker table? errr, yup. After the hand is over... shooting an angle... celebrating about it.... errr... No.

OK then Beanie I look forward to seeing you try this bluff-call move sometime soon....

Where does he lie? he doesn't have to say whether he can beat K high, RDW HAS TO TABLE HIS HAND TO WIN AND AND AND HE KNOWS IT!

IMO You can lie at any point except at showdown. if tobias can beat k high will he really just sit there and not show his TWO cards?

Celebrating winning the pot with the worst hand because of your opponents stuck up stupidity is brilliant and should be applauded.


haha pooon whenever I bluff call I get shown a purrrrr of deuces. they're always good :(

I'm sure Tobias doesn't make a habit of things like this, but made an exception here to teach RDW a lesson about the angle he was known for shooting (seeing opponent's cards when he is second to act but denying his opponent the opportunity to see his when RDW is first to act).


Basically, this.

Questioning my own morality is a very weak arguement. I don't steal personally. My point is people steal and you should have your wits about you, especially in situations where your vulnerability could be exposed. RDW is playing a poker pot here not attending a bible reading at Sunday school. Not only that but the td ruled the germ had acted within the rules of the game. So fair play to him. Wouldn't do it myself like.

WP - you made me lol and I agree RDW is stupid for not realising what was happening.

Now in turn you must agree that Tobias is a filthy angle shooting rat.

lol how has this got on to questioning Mantis' morality?

I think ze German posted his thoughts on 2+2

fwiw i think it was very borderline but fine, RDW is at fault imo

Rightly or wrongly there is a sort of perceived superior etiquette in big buy in tournies where nobody forces anyone to show there hand if they accept their beat so i can forgive RDW as thats what he is used to.

I wasn't questioning your morality. Quite the contrary as I knew the answer to the question I was asking.

Your point was poor though because in using an analogy where you are trying to say Roland is the mug you give Tobias the role of a thief.

I must concede that if the germ did this to a friend of mine or a woman or anyone I didn't find mildly irritating it would be bang out of order. But I don't know anyone who would be flashing a k and acting like such a nob at showdown really. Also I agree that my cashpoint point was poor but I thought the thread was in need of an entertaining story. And that story has entertained everyone at work all week. Everyone except Dave of course.

That's an interesting point, because I myself would extend that etiquette to people who I know well and play with regularly, but not to a random. I think I'd also be less likely to extend it the higher the buy in.

falls into the category of not protecting your pin, no way they give you your money back according to thomas kremser

Beanie prefers the raise, open-fold bluff.  Never fails.

thats just so they dont get to see what cards I raise it up with obv!!!