blonde poker forum

Last night, it was clear that the topic of the day was the top heavy prize structure. £50k between 3rd and 1st sounded massive to me.

B4Matt suggested that we addressed it further on this board. Good idea.

Now, we've talked and talked (and sometimes argued) about deals, structures, and prizes on other threads, but how about using this one for possible suggestions. I've spoken to a few casino peeps about the topic, and I think you'd be surprised about how open minded they actually are.

I'll start:

When you register, you vote on what prize structure you want to play with. Just a tick in a box or something, nothing complicated. The winning vote is then implemented. It's the players in that specific comp who should decide. Why can't we have varying structures depending on the views of the players involved. I see no reason for such regimentation.

This way, no1 can moan at the casino staff. They're just going with what the players want.

What do you reckon?

Any other ideas?

I'm all debated out, It's wrong, I know it's wrong, you know it's wrong, they know it's wrong.

Even with issues that the majority agree upon, you will always find someone with the opposite view

My preference is to pay 10% of the field with top places being paid as follows-

1st 32%.   2nd 22%    3rd 12%    4th 8%     5th 7%     6th 6%      7th 5%      8th 4%     9th 2 1/2%   10th 1 1/2%   = %100

For more than 100 runners then it needs tweaking but it would mean prizes of-

£32k for 1st

£5k for 7th

£1.5k for 10th

Based on a buy in of £1k with 100 runners.

This maybe isn't everyones cuppa but hey... you can please some of the people some of the time, but ya can't please em all, all of the time. :D 8)

I can't understand why they don't just take one of the online site standard structures such as Party or Stars and implement the same thing.  Their payouts are logical and address many of the criticisms that we seem to have about the existing payouts.

Is it really that difficult?

Sheriff

if you let people vote then no-one knows what the structure will be prior and may or may not put people off? its a good democratic idea however

i agree hence why i started a topic on it myself, i'm hopin to change the one at the broadway when i go back so suggestions are welcome.


I agree with usin online ones totally and 30% is good for 1st

Snoops, having a vote would just cause arguments when the vote is over.
Poll the regulars and find a structure they are happy with, don't just change it, this is why cardrooms have had disgruntled customers.
At the end of the day the structure at walsall was known beforehand and shed loads of people showed up, that is why it won't be changed.

It's not just about people showing up, if all the shops only sold fruit and veg we would still turn up to buy them, even Colchester Kev

surely it would be better for us to turn up AND be happy with the structure

I'm not saying their structure is right, i'm saying that while bums are on seats the management won't be eager to change anything.

Not true, I would starve to death !! :)

the regulars don't necessarily play the festival comps.

At least my way caters for the player involved in that particular comp.

As for arguments, well, we're getting them anyhow.

How can people argue about a fair vote? At the moment, we have no real say.

Well I just have to assume that the casino head honchos are keener on dangling the £70k 1st prize out there.

And bugger the poker players, what else could it be ?

We're all blue in the face now, well I am anyhow.

Last week I thought that we had made some progress. Dani asked me to suggest some payout structures and even
took me into the holy of holys inside the pit to show me what they were going to payout on the casino computer.

33% Dani and Richard said on Friday evening, and agreed in principle to all of our suggestions.

I turn up on Saturday for the tourney and the original 40/20/10% jobbie is printed on the form.

WTF ???

good point

Have you ever heard anyone complain about an online prize structure?

I haven't, why? because it's fair!

At the very least, I'd like to see the structure of festival events change.

How about this? Vote when you register for a festival event, then, when the next festival arrives, the most popular voted for can be implemented. The structue can also be advertised in advance this way.

I dislike referendums, we elect the government to govern and they should just get on with it.

On a smaller scale, I don't like 'the vote for a prize structure' on the night plan. Are we all going to tick boxes to say what sandwiches we would like. How about a ticky box for how you want the final table dealer to wear her hair.

Polling the regulars and sticking to that is a nice idea though. (On the prize sructure, Molly should be able to choose her own hairstyle)

Maybe they've done that already. The average recreational player wants the possibility of bigger paydays.

As long as she's female

Listen Snoops, we have said the structure is too top heavy, the TD's and cardroom super's have said it's too top heavy

During all these debates only one person has said it's ok the way it is, and he admits to doing deals and says it's not that important to him anyway

Who voted for it to be the way it is now? No one!

Everyone I talked to at the festival thought the prize structure was disgusting, how many complained? almost none

I'm sick of banging my head against a brick wall, poker players don't want to vote, they want to play poker

Forget the voting idea ffs it will just delay things by another couple of years, if a flatter structure is wrong it will be no more wrong than it is now

Besides which polls are only representative of opinions on here, and as such mean very little except to us.

the poll I was suggesting was not a blonde one

To be honest, I was inviting suggestions with this thread.

I made 1, whether it was a good one or not, at least it was a suggestion.

The problem lies IMO with the fact that in every poker-playing casino there are a dozen or so regular winners.

They favour a top heavy payout structure because they are there or thereabouts more often or not.

Bigger tourneys need a flatter structure, but the casino management owe their regulars loyalty.

This is what I feel is the crux of the matter.

Er  :hello:

I might have said this before but.......


THAT DOSN'T APPLY TO FESTIVALS

Walsall Management showed me on Saturday a significantly flatter structure which they intend to implement at the next Festival.

So there the matter can rest, until the next Fessie. Thety have assured me it will be used, the argument is over. For now.

Walsall is great, oh yeah, ba de da da ba da de dah dum!

Tony, that is good news for this particular cardroom but this is a countrywide problem, the Casinos are run by people that seem uninterested in listening to the majority of their clients. Walsall  may have done this and fair play to them if they have but every Casino in the country has payout structures that are just not fair.

I dont even see what the benefit is to the Casinos themselves, the more money that they share around, the more chance they have of getting some of it reinvested in other areas.

I have played tournies with structures like the one last weekend and it is the reason I very rarely play live anymore. I have had the feeling many times over that the gent that finished tenth on Sunday must have had.......was that all really worth it?

I was told that the player representatives of walsall saw the prize structure and agreed to it, which is why it was implemented.

I'm not sure how many of them were playing tho.

Snoopy, who were the player reps?

bobby, we must NOT be defeastist about this situation.

Forum pressure changed the structures at Notts, will help change it at Walsall, & we can do it elsewhere if need be. And we will - if that's what the majority want.

It really ain't as difficult as you think.

BELIEVE1

They pick about 5 i think.

however, I asked craig and he said he knew nothing about it.

Ash Pervais
Debbie ???
Craig Wildman (i think)
Erm one of the greek lads Elias i think.

If these guys were the players reps how many players did they ask before they ok'd the stucture? Or did 5 players decide a structure without asking anyones opinion?

I dont mean to have a swipe at those 5 players but if they had asked 5 on this thread they would have got a totally different answer. The Companies need to change their ways.

On Friday I was asked by Dani to have a look at what they were thinking of and he and Richard showed me a new flatter structure.

I believe it was 33%/20%/12% etc., a big improvement anyhow.

I thought at the time that it was to be implemented immediately but alas not.

The structure is as it has always been i believe, Craig will shed some light on it when he pops in.

I was told that these players were shown the sturcture. They said it was fine, so it was implemented.

Although Craig knows nothing about this as far as I know.

Perhaps I've got the wrong end osf the stick.

That is good news Tony but I have been told that Luton is one of the best run cardrooms around, so I trek down there a couple of Fridays ago and manage to finish 4th in the 45 runner £100 freeze...the prize structure?

9th got £120
6th got £210
For 4th i got £380
3rd got £540
2nd got £980
winner got £1800

The winner got 40% and the 3rd got 12%. Why would I play that comp again with a structure as bad as that, so Walsall may be listening and changing but what about Luton, or Bradford, or Leeds?

All these Casinos are run by big chains, it is these chains that need to get it right not the players through votes or polls and I just cannot see how this is going to be solved. These Casinos are losing players because of this.

Agreed that the chains dont seem to care as long as people keep turning up and doing a few bob on the tables once they bust out .... at every festival watch the roulette tables at the breaks... they open every one available and then close them after the break has finished.

What we need is independant clubs (Dusk til Dawn) to show the casino chains how to run comps for the players and how to structure a pay out system that allows for a fair result and a true winner.   Only then will the suits open their eyes and wonder why their poker rooms are emptying and the table games are not taking as much money...

In all honesty Kev, I hope Robs club blows some of these cardrooms away.

I am getting to the opinion that they do not deserve the custom anymore.

Luton have always had good structures, when there is 90 or over.
Unfortunately, with less than 90 they STILL pay 9 players ?!

I will concede that I speak from a postion of great ignorance and with a lack of experience (sadly up north we have v. limited choices). However i feel that paying 10%+1 of  the field is a fair enough with fields of maybe 100-150 and under. From there you should be aiming to reward 1st with a soldi figure of  (dependent on the field of x players and given an x of 100) 25-30%

Bottom line is that in tournaments, there are always going to be discontent and unhappiness about the payout structure. A universally accepted formula for payouts would be welcome, much as a universal set of rules would.

But the question is why?
If it clearly a bad structure why havent they changed it?
Luton has some fairly high profile and fairly well connected players, why havent they voiced their opinion on the terrible payout structures. Or have they been ignored?

The tournament was very playable and the clock excellent. The payout let the comp down and I will not return to play it again.

Are the regular comp structures that terrrible.

The promise of big pay days lures players into the casino for the first time. After all the casinos are trying to pay their leccy bills, not those of the regular player.

There's the odd crazy cat who believes there should only be one prize in poker tournaments. Perhaps 40% is, in itself, a compromise.  ;ifm;

In about a year and a half  :D

I started playing tournaments online and, to me, the prize structure was never an issue. As Red-Dog says, it's fair - it just seems right. When I first started playing live, I didn't even think there were any other payout structures - I assumed that what I'd been used to online was standard across all tournaments. For a certain number of entrants, the payout structure would be identical across all tournaments (super sats excepted).

To read about all this kerfuffle seems to me, an internet player, utterly idiotic - loads of people going out of their way to confuse and annoy others.

I can see the top-heavy argument (pulls punters in) but this is negated by the fact that virtually every top-heavy tournament ends in a deal - surely this blows the top-heavy argument out of the water. If it truly was what players wanted, there'd be no deals.

I'm racking my brains but I can't think of a decent credible argument in favour of top heavy structures.

I'll just be quiet now and agree with the levelling brigade.

Phil

We have made representations, to no avail...although we have no formal players reps

It is a sad fact when you are dealing with a big chain such as this, that whilst individuals may agree with your views to get anything changed takes you through a sea of treacle and bureaucracy.

Luton's Friday nights now particularly suffer because of a £100 rebuy comp at the Sportsman Casino in London. I went last night to a comp there, 63 runners, and the payout structure was approximately 30%, 20% and so on. Much flatter.

Punters, where there is genuine competition, are voting with their feet.......good for them. In the Midlands it seems that the two major places, J10 and the Broadway, both have the same payout issues...now if one were to break ranks and go much flatter....well it would be game on

It would be a shame if you didn't come back. to Luton though..I still want that drink!

As a recreational player I like the tournament payout structure as it was at the Festival main event. Imagine winning the Blu Square sat and then going home with £70k. It is why people play the game. I can understand the proffessionals wanting a flatter structure but the alure of the top place life changing cash is why most non pros play. I would never agree to deal as it ended up at Walsall .The thought of tens of thousands riding on your skill and the turn of a card is the biggest buzz. This is why I want to play big events. We all play poker to win and when you win a tournament main event you should win big.

I respect and understand everyones views but just dont agree with the majority here.

good luck

jezza

If you're a low stakes Blue Square qualifier, then I'd imagine that 55k was just as life changing as 70k.

I wouldn't have dealt either. Guaranteed 19.5k already. Go for it!!! Live a little.

Are you kidding Snoops?

nope

5 reasons...

I want the buzz
I want the win
I want a proper finish
I've already won 19.5k
I'm a bit mad

I expect I'm in the minority tho by quite a margin.

I still disagree with the top heavy structure though.

Were the chip counts almost dead even Snoops? Is that why they decidid to deal?

Yep, I'm sure there would have been the inevitable rowing session otherwise.

Well I really hope to see you in that position for real one day

I have often imagined what I would do in certain situations, the reality is often very different, remind me to tell you when I see you

no jokes about boat races pls.

except for you RED...

That's very quick for you Beagle...  ;D

trust you to stick your oar in  ::)

Snoopy is my new hero for today.

Look 'em hard in the eye and say, "No deal matey, I'm here for the buzz"

Can't wait.

oy. What's this? Pick on beagle day?

The buzz stop is outside

Luton.

At the Fessie before last (I missed the last one) , several of us went to Carmel & suggested that, in our opinion, the structure was top heavy.

She changed it IMMEDIATELy - there & then, & there were no complaints about the new, flatter, structure.

So it CAN be done, & it HAS been done, & lets applaud Carmel for her brave initiative.

There is no reason at all to be defeatist about this issue, if it needs changing we CAN help change it & the Casinos WILL listen if they are approached in the right manner. Sometimes, you know, it's not what you ask, it's how you ask it. A little good manners & diplomacy can go a very long way.

Walsall have agreed to change it for the next Fessie, I assume Luton will do the same - progress IS being made, & they ARE listening. But Supertankers do take a while to change diection.

Softly softly catchee monkee.....

I remember the next festival tikay tho, when you and I were in the final of the 300. I came 5th or something and went away with a grand, whilst 1st prize was several k. Not surprisingly, it ended in a deal.

Any idea why they didn't stick with the less top heavy structure?

I'm sure it was well received.

Ahh, the old 'Good cop, bad cop' routine!

snoops what happened last time you were at the final of the £300 in walsall?

That is the bit I cannot understand Rich, the structure is bad, the players have told them it is bad, they have done nothing about it and now players are going elsewhere. How is that good business?

It is a pity because the cardroom and clock were great. So the Sportsman has used its head and given a prize structure that the players clearly think is better. Why cant the chains get it right for their benefit aswell as ours.

The drink is still deffo on me.....

Tony,

The cardrooms should know by now that the majority of players dislike their pay structures. The fact that you had to tell them again and that they went back to the old structure for the next comp shows how little they care about getting this right long term.

Either they think it is right, in which case they wouldnt have changed it, or they know it is wrong but refuse to alter it permenantly.

snoops,

Well we just have to KEEP asking - asking being the correct word - & I firmly believe they WILL respond.

They have agreed to change it, they have shown themselves receptive to suggestions, hey, come on, these things take time, lets not keep raking up history. A little backbone is needed here, overcoming adversity is FUN, and progress HAS been made.

I know sloppy fared badly in the Final at Luton, but what do you expect, Raising with 6-3 off?

As for Red's "good cop, bad cop", balance IS important, & I DO think Grosvenor are receptive to player suggestions, but it's not a one-night battle, it's an ongoing thing. I'm up for the long haul, & I hope you guys are. I have less interest though, in what they did wrong in the past (in our opinion) than in what they have assured me they will do different, & better (in our opinion) in future.

And another thing Red, my @rse is nicer than yours. Official. See you tomorrow in Vienna.

Wanna bet?

Don't confuse quantity with quality

It's the Supertanker thing Bobby, these are large bureaucracy's where decisions are not delegated downstream easily or encouraged, & Staff need to be brave (as Carmel was) to change things. Everyone is talking about this in the negative, but we don't need to, these things ARE being changed, & pressure from the players IS responsible for that. We are still raking over History, yet they have agreed to change it at the next Walsall Fessie, & I guarantee that Carmel will be receptive again, as she was at the Fessie before last. What more do you want?

And before anyone suggests otherwise, I ain't got a flag to fly for Grosvenor particularly, but it's important to see this issue in perspective. They have agreed to change it, so why are we still banging on about what they did wrong in the past? And while I'm on my high-horse, personally, I don't think it's right to be too aggressive to Grosvenor. Imagine the UK Poker Circuit without them......WHAT Circuit! Someone in Rank or Grosvenor will wake up one morning & decide the (mostly unused) space devoted to Poker can be better utilised (in terms of financial return) by slots or gaming tables - then we WILL have summat to cry about.

Damn you Red. It's always a mistake to take on Red in a battle of words. He can't play poker, but he can't' arf talk. AND you forgot to remind me about this afternoon's comp on Laddies. Frightened of the competition, were we? Roll on our apartment in Vienna, where we are gonna having a "nicest @rse" comp. Against Thewy, sloppy, b4Matt, you & Jen, I'm clear favourite, thoigh I'm bound to say, Thewy's is well tidy.

I was going to remind you, but thought you might be busy

Laddies, in their infinite wisdom, have altered the scedule again and done away with the excellent 6pm comp

btw, BOBDABUTCHER is Bob the Butcher, he just gave me a kiss!

Tony, you are right. A couple of threads around at the moment have touched a nerve with me. The two things that get my goat the most are poor structures and collusion. In the past nothing has been done by cardrooms to combat either of these problems, lets hope they do start to combat these in the future.

They touch a nerve with me too bobby, be sure of that.

But progress IS being made on the Structures.

The collusion is more of a problem, it's tough to combat, & it does need the Cardroom Supervisors to be brave. We need to help them though, not pillory them.

They may have flattened the structure but they still left in a lot of the other, totally illogical, issues surrounding payouts - the payment increments were still uneven and the bottom payouts still meant players in the money went home having made a loss.

There are more issues here to consider than just the 1st prize percentage.

Sheriff

Fine - then we should take all or any of the issues to Carmel. I GUARANTEE she will listen, & if the argument is reasonable, she will change things. After all, she is there to please, & keep our custom, & she does it well imo.

If we don't tell them (politely & reasionably) then how are they gonna know? Moaning is NOT the answer. Constructive dialogue IS. IMHO......

Chop chop.

but that's a bit different to a festival main event with 3 players left.

It should be noted that Nightfly made clear efforts to listen to us.

In fact, last time I went to the Gala for the £30 freezout, the prize list was flatter and their were NO deals. In fact, the last 4 times I have gone down, there have been NO deals.

Deals are back, structure remains.

Last time I was there taffy was moaning to (i think his name is??) Ron about the new flatter structures.

He said that they'd suffer for bigger comps as people wouldn't travel.

Ron said he'd see how it went but they were sticking with it for the foreseeable future.

Structures don't matter to fish like me who never cash  :D

Taff was moaning? Now there's a thing.........

 rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao

We should get him on blonde, imagine the fun!

How would you know? Not like you lasted that long!

Well, he would tell us how to run blonde, thats for sure....

I like the whole democratic part of this debate, it should be put to a vote with the members of the particular casino.
As it is there are very few complaints about payout structures at any casino i have ever been in (i have never even heard a complaint about it in a casino before Red the other day), the majority must be happy about it?
The payout structure is, and most likely always will be, dictated by the deals people do, if the people involved in that particular comp on that particular day want it flatter they can do it themselves but you want to force your own personal preference on everyone else.
If walsall or the broadway or anywhere else change the structure without asking the people it affects there will be (and quite rightly) complaints.
I remember Chili complaining about the structure changing at Notts out of the blue, it's not up to the casinos or at least shouldn't be.

Yes, but what is the correct starting point Ian? This is real chicken & egg stuff!

I take your point 100% - democratic, don't change without asking, bla bla bla. All fine & agreed.

But they never asked ME - NOBNODY ever did - if I was happy to start off at 40% top Prize. And my money is as good as any other players money, surely?

So I could just as easily argue for, say, starting it off at 28% First Prize & make the same argument you have.

Who agreed the 40% starting point? I never did, & I know many who would never agree to it, just as I know many who would.

So how come the 40%-ers held sway? - or used to, before it got changed........

I did ask, and I asked the people who were playing the festival

Every man Jack of them thought the prize structure was terrible, I also asked them if they had complained, everyone said no

Most peple don't like to complain, it dosn't mean they like things the way they are


Carmell changed the structure at Luton and was congratulated, both on here and at the casino



btw, we were all members of the casino, otherwise we wouldn't be allowed to play

It may have started at 28% for all i know and people power got it changed, that isn't the point, i'm saying if it is to be changed from what it is now then it should be done right.
I actually think if it were voted on throughout the land it would be kept the way it is, at least there is room to deal down to a flatter structure, if it were a flatter structure to start there is no room to go the other way.
The whole point of this seems to be to try and prevent deals and i just can't think of a reason why some people want to stop deals, if you don't like 'em don't do 'em, let the rest do as they like with (i say this again) their money!!

Deals are rarely done untill the last four, the poor sods who come in the minor places leave feeling disapointed rather than elated

There is nothing wrong with deals, they will always be a part of poker, but a flatter structure would be fairer to all, by your reconing there should just be one prize, 100% for 1st

I never said that or think it, i am happy to go along with the majority, i just don't want new structures forced on us because a few people are not happy.
Just read a post from Tim Flanders elsewhere and it looks as if he was pressured into a deal, that i don't agree with.

so by having a proper structure pressurized deals would not happen because the jumos in prize money would be fair.

40% is far too much for top prize.

OK, vote on it. The winner will be a flatter structure, imo. We did vote on it before, & the unaminous majority wanted it flatter, but the Flat Earth Society claimed the poll was worded wrong!

It matters not now though. Walsall have decided to make their structure flatter in line with what many players have requested. And I am quite sure Carmel at Luton will, as she did before, react to players requests to make the prize structures better, i.e. flatter (better, that is, imo....)

Tikay, the Flat Earth Society was disbanded after Columbus discovered America. Don't you remember?  ;tk;

Polls on internet forums prove nothing, it's the people it affects that count.
Walsall have a players forum, they set it up, i hope they go through that route (apparently not) before they do anything.