blonde poker forum

I’ve got that age old problem of trying to get a higher salary. I really think my employer is being unreasonable and more so just the area manager not fighting my corner.

I’m sure lots of you have been in this situation before so any advice would be appreciated.

I love the company I work for and have been there on and off for 7 years. On my area there are 16 stores and out of that I have the most experience (13 managers under 1 years service, shows the rate at which we are growing). I’d been at the same store for 3 years and have always done what I needed to do with regards to performance. I’ve had yearly salary increases of 2.5% (same as all other managers) I’ve had a bonus every year however the % has been decreasing from 30% down to 21% last year (managers bonus is yearly based on hitting certain KPI’s and the company achieving its targets).

Anyway our peak season runs from Sept to End of Nov and we spend July and August preparing for it. At the end of August a manager left suddenly and I was asked (I was always going to have to go) to take over the largest turnover store on the area and 20/620 on company. The immediate financial benefit to me was the travelling distance.

When I was doing the handover of the store it was painfully obvious that the store was massively mis managed, under performing and would actual change my life due to the time of year and amount of work I had to do, particularly as no prep had been done for peak. I requested that my salary get looked at due to this and was told that my bonus could be protected but I was outside the salary banding for the store, I.e I already earnt to much. (Which also meant I was lied to by my previous area manager when I asked about a salary increase about 18months ago in my previous store which was a banding higher, being told I was already at the top of the banding). Just to clarify the salary banding do not go on turnover but Area, I.e a manager in London will have more due to weighting.

After a lot of thinking about it  I decided that in the long run I could use this move to further my career (which s important to me). However i can’t stop thinking that I’m being taken advantage of, it’s not the 1st time I’ve had to go into a store and clean up other people’s mess and the fact that this guy was the area managers right hand man angers me even more as he was obviously allowed to get away with it. Although there are salary banding I know it’s possible to do more than this as I fought with my previous area manager to get my 2 deputies the money that they got because of the work we were doing.

I’m seeing the area manager this week for a 1-2-1 and although I feel like just playing chicken and handing in my 4 weeks notice because of my pay it probably not the best thing to do with 3 kids (although I am prepared to leave over it my wife really wants me to have a job first).

I think what I’m going to do is let her know again that I’m unhappy about not getting a salary increase and how it has changed my personal life, she insisted at the time that she didn’t want it to change my work/life balance but in the real world I can’t be successful without doing whatever is needed. (I now work more hours and play poker about once a week where in my previous shop I would play 4/5 times a week, hence I also losing that bit of pocket money). Also that I am starting to look for a new job because of it.

Also just to be clear I’m not asking or wanting tens of thousands, I would ideally want 4K and would have a problem accepting 2k but even that is not on offer.

(This actually sounds ridiculous writing these amounts down but I really cannot get over the fact that I’m being treated this way, especially knowing full well that an external manager can come into the company now and get about 8k more than what I earn, when I joined the company I was one of the highest paid managers as I negotiated what I wanted, because of my illness it affected what I earn now, long story but I left and came back and then wasn’t in a strong position to negotiate.)

Anybody got any advice on how to handle it?

Don't make personal comparisons within the company.
Don't appear to whine
Don't use the fact  yr putting in more hours than yr paid for.
Don't give ultimatums.

Do explain that you've looked at the market rates for the role and they are higher than yr paid
Do emphasize the impact you bring in the role and the impact you have on profitability
Do emphasize the plans you have for improvement and the benefits that has for your boss
Do tell him yr conclusion that, irrespective of notional bandings you believe the role you play merits a higher reward
Do ask directly for a significant increase
Do agree a timescale for a response from them

Pretty much spot on.

I've done this so far for new shop, KPIs are up by x.
I really enjoy working here and my plans are to further improve those KPIs to y which will be a win-win-win for me, you and the company.
The market is buoyant and current salary + 8/10k is not unrealistic. My preference would be to stay where I'm valued but I do need to see that reflected in my package.

Alternatively, you have a good story to tell in interviews. Get out there and see what's available. No harm in trying.

Thanks guys, glad I posted, the emotion when you are feeling hard done by always seems to take over. Some great advice, keeping it relevant, positive and direct can only help me. I’ll let you know how I get on.

Good luck Omm

I would only disagree with the ‘Dont give ultimatums’ Only give an ultimatum if you are prepared to follow it through.

Also remember that there might only so much they can do with salaries. Often the 2.5% you quote might be the standard across the board and your boss may only have a little extra in the budget to give to either top performers or those whose salaries are at the bottom end of the pay scale.

Either way Nirvana’s suggestion is the way to get you to the top of that list. GL

I agree with what has been posted. You have to present your case well otherwise you'll be giving your bosses reasons for not giving you that rise. From my previous experience of over 20 years in retail management, been away a few years now though, if you want a significant rise in your salary you have to seriously think about looking externally.

Same in my industry, best way to get your salary up quicker is to move for better salaries a couple of times over the course of a period of time that doesn’t make you look like a flake.....so maybe 3-4 years.

Firstly you need to extract emotion out of the situation because this is business.

If an employee raised your particular situation with me during a 1-2-1 this is what I would say. Why are you feeling hard done by or under-valued? Out of all the managers in the group we choose you to turn this outlet around, we trust you. In fact we have so much faith in you we're happy to over-pay you for the banding of this store. I would try and build better engagement from you in the task ahead through reassurance, words and vague promises about future movement.

The reality is your area manager will have KPIs to hit and considering she is already paying you more than the band there won't be any wriggle room. She will undoubtedly be under pressure to reduce payroll and so any case you present about personal circumstances will be irrelevant. If you leave she can get a cheaper alternative and reduce payroll so every cloud and all that.

My advice....

a) Salary jumps come from moving company so simply look for alternatives.
b) Don't leave in the meantime. Aside from walking away from your current income what are you saying in your next interview? That the company showed faith in you to take on this important challenge and you quit? Doesn't sound like the sort of leader I'd want to employ.
c) In the 1-2-1 simply ask what are her plans for your salary. Then say nothing and let her talk. Any additional pressure will be futile.

GL & let us know what happens

No good people.

I took most of the advice on here. Prepared a presentation of what I have achieve in the last 8 weeks, what my plans are for the next 2 months and then into the first qtr of the new financial year. Spoke through in detail about every member of staff (16) and management (5) and what development I have in place with them. Spoke about the two biggest challenges I have faced and where I think I can do better as well as what my plan is long term for these. After discussing all this I said that I was disappointed that nothing could be done with my salary when I had originally asked and could we look at this again. ( I went silent Mantis). The response I got was "Its a different banding store, not much i can do".

Now remember ive been asked to run the biggest turnover and challenging store on the area yet according to the bandings a store with half the turnover that's in a higher banding (less than 6 miles from me) is entitled (and actually gets) to a higher salary, no matter if he is capable of doing the job.

Anyway, I explained that I was honoured to have been asked to take on this challenge and it showed that they thought I was capable of doing the job to the standard expected, I have demonstrated what a difference I have made in just 8 weeks and in the long term the store, people within it, area and company will be in a much better position, (I did not get emotional)however I felt that I showed enthusiasm to get the job done, even though I am working in the most difficult of circumstances. I explained because of all of this I would like to think that she would think that it was worth rewarding me significantly for the job that I am doing, one which they have asked me to do at the busiest time of year without any preparation. The response I got was "Its a different banding to the previous store, I will discuss it at the year end appraisals with the boss"

As much as I am glad I have dealt with it in the way that you guys have advised and I am pleased with how I have pointed out what value I add to the company I really do feel I know how this is going to pan out:

1) I will find a new job and be offered a much higher salary
2) I will resign with 4 weeks notice and give my honest reasons why i.e Salary
3) I will get a counter offer which will be very annoying that it wasn't offered in the first place.
4) Ill end up leaving because loyalty is no longer worth anything. As a few of you have already said, nowadays to get anything decent you have to move companies.


Summary is im pleased with the advice and how i put my case together but i always knew that getting a new role will be the only thing my boss listens to and by then it will be to late.

Take your pay off inveest in betfair and start laying and backing dogs son.  Give it a spin.  You never know.

Couple of things.....

One of you is kidding yourself as there is an obvious mismatch in the attitude towards your worth.

I would suggest that you look for another job, resign as planned and see what their counter offer is and then re access.

I don't think you should leave on principal, if you get another job your going to find out exactly where you stand.
As long as you have a real offer in your hand then you are in the driving seat.

I would be looking to discuss the counter offer with someone higher, explaining your disappointment in how undervalued you felt, and to stay they would need to beat your new job offer and put together a firm plan of how both your job and salary is going to progress over the next 5 years.

The Dream! However I always found I work much better when I'm with other people. Im one of life's dreamers, I think I am good enough to be a poker pro but in reality im shit, lol. Fell into retail and cant seem to get out of it.

In reality you probably aren’t getting a rise outside of the payrises that follow the usual end of year review process/possibly mid year review anyway.

Will always be a dream and an unknown until you actually give it a spin.  You never know until you give it a proper shot if you can do it

Think I have worked out who Omm works for, & if I'm right, they are seriously tough people to try to bargain with.

Anyway, whatever happens, GL mate.

This is the nut-worst time to be giving it a spin as a pro punterer on any sport. Game's dead.

You dealt with it like a pro - now you can go and get another job knowing you made the effort.

Although the original post was how about how to go about things - obvs tend to agree with others who mention significant salary progress tends only to come with significant changes to the role, internally or more usually by moving on.

Feels like NIrvana should give you the money he cost you with his strategy.

Haha, I was so sure of myself too

It's exactly the same when I re-negotiate my Sky TV contract. They say they can't offer me a better deal, I cancel my subscription, (whilst secretly letting my daughter sign up as a new customer) and as soon as the cancellation is complete they offer me, as a valued customer, a stonking deal to come back into the fold.

The next year, my daughter cancels, I sign up as a new customer, they offer her a stonking deal to come back.

It's madness.

when you tender your notice they wont counter offer mate

Now speaking on behalf of both the British nation and Omms employer.

It’s absolutely incredible, if you’ve paid any attention at all to this forum in the last decade, that there was a life important situation and one of the bits of advice you seem to have taken on board was from Mantis. It’s really irresponsible for him to post it, unbelievable that it seems you listened to it.

I guess important to note that it doesn’t seem like it made any difference. Going silent just isn’t usually a good idea though, it makes most people uncomfortable, it’s not a spot where you want them to be uncomfortable.

Completely disagree, anyone who knows anything about effective communication will use it as a standard tactic in certain situations. Anyone who says otherwise knows fk all about communication.....

Just passing on my experience from 20yrs managing in large corporate business

Of course people are free to listen to the bedroom-dwellers instead.

😂 So I form my opinion on every post you’ve ever made, thousands of them are flat out ridiculous. How did you form an opinion that I spend an above average amount of time in bedrooms?

Sorry for the derail Omm, nothing more from me on this. Good luck getting the salary you deserve.

Last business I managed I increased EBITDA from £100k to £1.1m in 3.5yrs. That doesn’t come from giving employees pay rises they think they deserve

The motivation and additional performance from pay rises is very temporary. About 2mths after a rise you adjust to the norm of the new salary and perform like you always have. In this instance the choice of the area manager is offering more pay to a seemingly disenchanted employee who’s already overpaid or get a fresh super engaged employee for much less. I’m afraid the employer doesn’t give one fuck about Omm. I can speak for his employer because that’s how 99% of employers feel these days. Could be wrong though and perhaps he will get showered with a big pay rise, company car and exciting new incentives.

Some great stuff on here.

A point I'm not sure that has been raised is that you know exactly where you are at the moment, even if you feel it is undervalued and underpaid.

The grass is rarely greener........I

it is all about emotion man, no point listening to any so called experts.

Mantis is right that the utility of a pay rise is poor in terms of improving motivation over a period of time. At the same time, it ain't great having demotivated employees. For short periods in my life, I've been a confident but demotivated employee, not ready or interested in moving jobs..it's pretty easy to adjust your work effort and input to get yourself on a really high hourly.

I agree with everything Mantis says. I manage up to 500 people on and off and have these situations all the time, if backed into a corner I may give a rise but then fully plan to replace them as they aren’t the kind of poeple I want around. If you are worth it, you are paid it.

Mantis’s advice is solid.

Looks like I’ll have to get back involved :-). I missed my usual caveat, that I’m open to the possibility that I’m wrong. You guys plus Mantis have a hell of a lot more experience than me. My profession is investigating and prosecuting environmental crime. Over the course of my life I have had hundreds of hours coaching/training in effective communication from barrister’s/lawyer’s/QC’s. There’s close to no chance that I know “fk all about communication”.

I stand by the sentiment that based on a balanced assessment of every post he’s ever made, taking advice from Mantis is a terrible idea.

Nice one!

FWIW in my last company we employed world class HR experts to complete a comprehensive engagement survey of 500 employees. The biggest gripe was pay. The CEO invested an eye-watering sum in increasing every employees pay. When the survey was conducted a year later engagement had gone down. As far as ROI goes pay rises suck.

Since joining my new company a total of 22 employees have joined me for less pay.

People work for leaders not companies

Good post.

It could be the opposite mate, if they have invested so much in your communication they may have recognised you have a weakness with it?  ;whistle;

What a load of rubbish.  People are rarely paid what they are worth unless they scream and shout for what they are worth.  Hhence why women are paid much less than men generally in the same role because they don't argue or kick up a fuss as much.

I don't think it is that straightforward.   In my line of work, training takes so much time and money that losing someone for the sake of paying them an extra 5% is a terrible idea.  I say this as someone who used to pay people so the extra 5% came from my wallet.  So you really pay them to retain them, not to motivate.  

So many people are going to moan no matter how much you pay them.  The fear of losing the top 20% and been left with the moaners is very real.  

It’s an interesting angle. I don’t get extra lessons though, apart from when I actively seek them. I’m a big fanboy when it comes to lawyers, I love being around them and learning from them, they seem to like and think they learn a little from me as well.

Didn’t think lawyers would be interested in your specialist subject of whining about politics  ;adamm;

I saw a quote earlier on LinkedIn, something like " What if we develop our people so well that they leave" reply was "Imagine we didn't and they stayed" or something like that.

When i left a betting firm in the past i have had several friends who stayed get a pay rise simply because the firm was scared they were going to jump ship and come with me to my new place.  They did nothing personally to justify the pay rise in their performance/job rolee and didn't ask for it so they were being under paid previously and only got a pay rise because i left.

Have you ever met a woman?

Women must love me then!  Never get any of that hassle.  Got to know what buttons to press and don't live with them or work with them!

Ah, is this your opening line? :)
(https://i.etsystatic.com/6444276/r/il/d2b3c5/575861113/il_fullxfull.575861113_gljm.jpg)

The primary objective of senior managers is to hit their P&L numbers in the here and now. Just like football managers need to win this Saturday, not weeks down the track. So employees can scream or shout for all their worth and it makes no difference to the numbers. I have managed a tonne of employees and have never paid more because I'm scared they'll leave or because they screamed. In fact the knowledge that an employee's only motivation to stay is a couple more dollars turns me right off. There are two types of people in the workplace, those who lack skill and those who lack will. Skill can be taught so roll on the next candidate with the right attitude.

However, as a big advocate of people and their value I do really support the notion that training and development is key. As employees progress the value to their company increases and they should be paid more accordingly. I've lost count of the times I've put that notion on the boardroom table only to find it's rejected regularly. A budget is a budget see. The problem is that in the real world the theoretical notion that somebody could leave doesn't affect the P&L numbers today. Sure thing, it MIGHT affect top line in the future IF that employee leaves. But that is a theoretical problem for tomorrow and it's the practicality of today that's the priority. I hate short-termism but unfortunately finance directors love it.

I read that Omm is in retail which is a declining industry so the area manager will be under pressure to deliver payroll efficiency TODAY. They appear willing to over pay for him to steam in and impact top line and thus justify the increase in payroll...ratios innit. But to pay even more in the hope or promise of future sales impact won't appeal because the ratio will be even more out of kilter TODAY. The alternative of getting a cheaper manager will impact the P&L right now as the payroll number seductively drops. And hey the new guy might still deliver that increase in revenue tomorrow. That's why there will be no counter offer. The area manager has the choice of delivering an immediate impact on numbers today or hoping/gambling numbers will be impacted tomorrow in a declining industry. Add to that the employer knows any leader worth their salt will produce a professional performance anyway because of standards/pride. Yep the ROI on pay rises suck and it always will. 

In my corporate days as a manager of sales people asking for a pay rise based on a job offer from elsewhere was never an effective tactic.

“You’ve been offered an extra £2k p.a.? Best take it then. Leave your car keys on the desk.”

But its not just about sales (I have a P and L as well, salary is obvs the biggest expenditure, however I also look after controllable costs, stock and cash, chargebacks, energy and contribution and some other non controllable like rent, rates etc) and rather than hope I would think a good boss would take into consideration past performance (Hence putting me there in the first place).

An example I can give on this would be the store that I have managed for the last 3 years has had less than £150 actual cash loss on around £750k in physical cash taken (not sales). The store I have been sent to over the same period has had nearly £5k loss on nearly £900k of actual cash taken. I could give a very similar example on stockloss over the same period. I'm not just there to increase sales and let it disappear through the backdoor. Continuing to invest in me through various avenues like training, development and salary is not a one way street, the company get something back as well, some of that is instant like an increase in turnover as well as a stem of the stock and cash loss (which on both counts I can actually prove that I have made a difference over the last 8 weeks) and some is long term like proper development of my people. I actually think the bandings the company have created are wrong. I could literally go back to the store I have just come from and get a pay increase because its a higher banding.

You make it sound like just because ive asked for more money and im willing to find another job to get what I want that I have given up all hope at work and i'm totally disengaged. I'm a professional retail manager, I've also got integrity,  I'm allowed to get upset if I feel something is not  right but im also allowed to continue to do my job to the highest standard even though I may feel that way. Part of the reason that I asked advice in the first place is the fact that I actually love the company I work for and would prefer to continue to develop my career with them. Im not perfect but I actually listened to the advice that was given by a few because it made sense.

I do agree that we work for the person rather than the company and I think that may be the biggest issue, thinking about it I just don't get on with my boss as much as I should do and what's worse is i'm not actually sure why.

Hey mate, sorry I was turning this into a more general discussion. The fact you were offered this position demonstrates you are engaged and good at your job.

But check it out, you "love the company you work for" and hope to continue, you have "integrity", you will produce a "professional performance" regardless and no doubt as a leader you won't let your team down. So you can see that forking out another pay rise doesn't actually get the company anything. Only the perception of your happiness and a feeling of worth.

The area manager said "different banding, nothing I can do".

This is a low skill level response from her because she's passing the buck and not understanding the character you are. It's probably the reason you don't get on as well as you should. A skilled leader has enough ammo here to fuel a feeling of worth within you, we wouldn't have paid anybody else this salary at this store, you are our main man, hopes at HO are sky high with you at the helm! Whilst appealing to your commercial acumen to understand the constraints of her budget. And delivering assurances of fighting your corner when results are delivered. A skilled leader gets your continued passion and engagement at the same price. You should come out of that meeting feeling 10ft tall.

No worries.

I get what you are saying here. The more i think about it the more i realize that i should probably work on my relationship with her if im to have a chance of getting what i want.

The boss boss is visiting this week, might show him my presentation  ;D

Rather than trying to get a pay rise on a personal level, have you thought about putting a case together as to why you believe the store itself has been wrongly banded i.e compare turnover, profit number of staff, footfall etc and should be in a higher band thus getting a pay rise that way.

Great idea Dewi, for the many not the few, higher banding is 40p per hour extra for each member of staff.

Very interesting to read the insights. Most of my experience has been working in niche markets where finding and keeping good people with the right mix of interpersonal and technical skills is really hard. Even though we had one of the best learning and development offerings in the industry I was still approving five figure retention bonuses on a fairly frequent basis - can't imagine working in an environment where asking for an increase marks you as someone to manage out.

To combat the pay me now for future returns issue you could also suggest something that is paid out once you have delivered.

Either for you or the whole store.

Assuming you have a bonus in place now for hitting a target, you could try and get them to agree a second level target where your bonus percentage increases?

I'm pretty much informed by this perspective too. There are many people I've been happy to just wish all the best and be pleased for them when leaving for a better opportunity. And many where I have been jogged into doing something when I hadn't been thinking of it myself. Recruitment fees are massive and good people have proved hard to find making retention a pretty important factor

The problem with this, even though it seems a great idea, is that this is a multi-national business with Global & UK-wide policies, which would have been formulated & approved at Board level, & I am struggling to see that they would be amenable to breaking the wage structure. Once you do that for one Store, the dam soon bursts when there are 600 of them in the UK alone. 

Have to add, this has been a great thread & I really enjoyed the reasoned debate.

Think MANTIS owned it though. He'll make a good deputy to Brad with a little more experience under his belt.

Ive read about Brad, now he is the sort of guy you want to work for  ;D

Spot on Tikay, as much as it would be great to be able to challenge, debate and agree a a secondary bonus it will never happen. The first one takes a year to achieve and I don't have a say in what that is made up of, no different to any other large business with thousands of employees.

The other issue is that you said the store was grossly mismanaged under the previous regime. Thus an upturn in performance will be a natural expectation of your appointment.

Effectively you will be saying "I know you're already over paying me but can I have another pay rise for doing my job to a professional standard"

The best thing is to simply smash this great opportunity to bits, you're taking over an outlet where you recognise the issues and can do something about it. Spike the revenue, cut the wastage, win the respect of your new team and gratify yourself with taking that business from the doldrums to a thriving enterprise all within a struggling industry. Then brag all about that impact in your next interview. A career is a long term deal and whilst you may not get the instant gratification of a pay rise now your efforts will still prove valuable currency in bagging future, better paid opportunities.

Oh and can we all stop mentioning Brad now. Chills me to the bone.   

when i was running my restaurant, where people are generally quite poorly paid as an industry standard (but tips innit - which every one quickly forgets!) you get a lot of payrise requests.

i decided one day to leave everyones payslips open "accidentally" so everyone could see how much everyone got paid, pretty much everyone in the bottom half of pay came in asking why they got paid X and this guy got paid X+some.

one guy, 18yrs old came in and said "Ive seen Ben gets *some amount* more than me - what can i do to get paid the samr as him.

i thought that was a terrific attitude and i gave him a rise.

Omm attitude looks good, I dont know much about corporate life but it seems to me the price you pay for the structure and resources of a big corporate business is less flexibility for this type of thing.  I never had budgets, resources, departments for any project ever but always had flexibility over money. Gotta puck your side i guess.

Had a director visit yesterday ( my boss’ boss), Mantis called it, visit went well, can see the improvements, looking forward to what we are going to achieve, spent some time with me talking about what I can see for myself in the future and what his plans are and were i sit in them. All very positive. Made me feel very special and not one mention of money  ;D

I will add that I also didn’t feel comfortable or think it was the right time to discuss what I had requested last week to my boss. She was with us the whole time and I have no idea if she has spoke to him about it (probably has), not sure if I missed an opportunity but it just didn’t feel like the right forum to discuss it.

I turned down a job roughly 20 months ago (I had a different boss and felt a strong loyalty to them and felt further along in my career). I’m seeing the firm again tmrw for an informal chat but the reality is that it is just over a 40% increase in basic salary as well as a car and the usual benefits, I now feel no loyalty to my boss but would work for my current director all day long. I suppose it proves that to get any significant increase moving companies is +EV, I am also abit fed up with getting promises from bosses only for them to move on and me having to start again with the new boss (4 area managers and 5 retail directors in 4 years). The only difference now is that I have known my “new” director for many years but he is not my direct line manager and may only see or speak to him a few times a year.

Great news Omm and good luck with the other opportunity.

I think you did the right thing not mentioning the money.

Good luck in the new job