Advice on Salary increase request.

[arbboy]

I agree with everything Mantis says. I manage up to 500 people on and off and have these situations all the time, if backed into a corner I may give a rise but then fully plan to replace them as they aren’t the kind of poeple I want around. If you are worth it, you are paid it.

Mantis’s advice is solid.

What a load of rubbish.  People are rarely paid what they are worth unless they scream and shout for what they are worth.  Hhence why women are paid much less than men generally in the same role because they don't argue or kick up a fuss as much.

Have you ever met a woman?

Women must love me then!  Never get any of that hassle.  Got to know what buttons to press and don't live with them or work with them!

[bobAlike]

I agree with everything Mantis says. I manage up to 500 people on and off and have these situations all the time, if backed into a corner I may give a rise but then fully plan to replace them as they aren’t the kind of poeple I want around. If you are worth it, you are paid it.

Mantis’s advice is solid.

What a load of rubbish.  People are rarely paid what they are worth unless they scream and shout for what they are worth.  Hhence why women are paid much less than men generally in the same role because they don't argue or kick up a fuss as much.

Have you ever met a woman?

Women must love me then!  Never get any of that hassle.  Got to know what buttons to press and don't live with them or work with them!

Ah, is this your opening line?

Click to see full-size image.

[MANTIS01]

The primary objective of senior managers is to hit their P&L numbers in the here and now. Just like football managers need to win this Saturday, not weeks down the track. So employees can scream or shout for all their worth and it makes no difference to the numbers. I have managed a tonne of employees and have never paid more because I'm scared they'll leave or because they screamed. In fact the knowledge that an employee's only motivation to stay is a couple more dollars turns me right off. There are two types of people in the workplace, those who lack skill and those who lack will. Skill can be taught so roll on the next candidate with the right attitude.

However, as a big advocate of people and their value I do really support the notion that training and development is key. As employees progress the value to their company increases and they should be paid more accordingly. I've lost count of the times I've put that notion on the boardroom table only to find it's rejected regularly. A budget is a budget see. The problem is that in the real world the theoretical notion that somebody could leave doesn't affect the P&L numbers today. Sure thing, it MIGHT affect top line in the future IF that employee leaves. But that is a theoretical problem for tomorrow and it's the practicality of today that's the priority. I hate short-termism but unfortunately finance directors love it.

I read that Omm is in retail which is a declining industry so the area manager will be under pressure to deliver payroll efficiency TODAY. They appear willing to over pay for him to steam in and impact top line and thus justify the increase in payroll...ratios innit. But to pay even more in the hope or promise of future sales impact won't appeal because the ratio will be even more out of kilter TODAY. The alternative of getting a cheaper manager will impact the P&L right now as the payroll number seductively drops. And hey the new guy might still deliver that increase in revenue tomorrow. That's why there will be no counter offer. The area manager has the choice of delivering an immediate impact on numbers today or hoping/gambling numbers will be impacted tomorrow in a declining industry. Add to that the employer knows any leader worth their salt will produce a professional performance anyway because of standards/pride. Yep the ROI on pay rises suck and it always will. 

[Pokerpops]

In my corporate days as a manager of sales people asking for a pay rise based on a job offer from elsewhere was never an effective tactic.

“You’ve been offered an extra £2k p.a.? Best take it then. Leave your car keys on the desk.”

[Omm]

The primary objective of senior managers is to hit their P&L numbers in the here and now. Just like football managers need to win this Saturday, not weeks down the track. So employees can scream or shout for all their worth and it makes no difference to the numbers. I have managed a tonne of employees and have never paid more because I'm scared they'll leave or because they screamed. In fact the knowledge that an employee's only motivation to stay is a couple more dollars turns me right off. There are two types of people in the workplace, those who lack skill and those who lack will. Skill can be taught so roll on the next candidate with the right attitude.

However, as a big advocate of people and their value I do really support the notion that training and development is key. As employees progress the value to their company increases and they should be paid more accordingly. I've lost count of the times I've put that notion on the boardroom table only to find it's rejected regularly. A budget is a budget see. The problem is that in the real world the theoretical notion that somebody could leave doesn't affect the P&L numbers today. Sure thing, it MIGHT affect top line in the future IF that employee leaves. But that is a theoretical problem for tomorrow and it's the practicality of today that's the priority. I hate short-termism but unfortunately finance directors love it.

I read that Omm is in retail which is a declining industry so the area manager will be under pressure to deliver payroll efficiency TODAY. They appear willing to over pay for him to steam in and impact top line and thus justify the increase in payroll...ratios innit. But to pay even more in the hope or promise of future sales impact won't appeal because the ratio will be even more out of kilter TODAY. The alternative of getting a cheaper manager will impact the P&L right now as the payroll number seductively drops. And hey the new guy might still deliver that increase in revenue tomorrow. That's why there will be no counter offer. The area manager has the choice of delivering an immediate impact on numbers today or hoping/gambling numbers will be impacted tomorrow in a declining industry. Add to that the employer knows any leader worth their salt will produce a professional performance anyway because of standards/pride. Yep the ROI on pay rises suck and it always will. 

But its not just about sales (I have a P and L as well, salary is obvs the biggest expenditure, however I also look after controllable costs, stock and cash, chargebacks, energy and contribution and some other non controllable like rent, rates etc) and rather than hope I would think a good boss would take into consideration past performance (Hence putting me there in the first place).

An example I can give on this would be the store that I have managed for the last 3 years has had less than £150 actual cash loss on around £750k in physical cash taken (not sales). The store I have been sent to over the same period has had nearly £5k loss on nearly £900k of actual cash taken. I could give a very similar example on stockloss over the same period. I'm not just there to increase sales and let it disappear through the backdoor. Continuing to invest in me through various avenues like training, development and salary is not a one way street, the company get something back as well, some of that is instant like an increase in turnover as well as a stem of the stock and cash loss (which on both counts I can actually prove that I have made a difference over the last 8 weeks) and some is long term like proper development of my people. I actually think the bandings the company have created are wrong. I could literally go back to the store I have just come from and get a pay increase because its a higher banding.

You make it sound like just because ive asked for more money and im willing to find another job to get what I want that I have given up all hope at work and i'm totally disengaged. I'm a professional retail manager, I've also got integrity,  I'm allowed to get upset if I feel something is not  right but im also allowed to continue to do my job to the highest standard even though I may feel that way. Part of the reason that I asked advice in the first place is the fact that I actually love the company I work for and would prefer to continue to develop my career with them. Im not perfect but I actually listened to the advice that was given by a few because it made sense.

I do agree that we work for the person rather than the company and I think that may be the biggest issue, thinking about it I just don't get on with my boss as much as I should do and what's worse is i'm not actually sure why.

[MANTIS01]

Hey mate, sorry I was turning this into a more general discussion. The fact you were offered this position demonstrates you are engaged and good at your job.

But check it out, you "love the company you work for" and hope to continue, you have "integrity", you will produce a "professional performance" regardless and no doubt as a leader you won't let your team down. So you can see that forking out another pay rise doesn't actually get the company anything. Only the perception of your happiness and a feeling of worth.

The area manager said "different banding, nothing I can do".

This is a low skill level response from her because she's passing the buck and not understanding the character you are. It's probably the reason you don't get on as well as you should. A skilled leader has enough ammo here to fuel a feeling of worth within you, we wouldn't have paid anybody else this salary at this store, you are our main man, hopes at HO are sky high with you at the helm! Whilst appealing to your commercial acumen to understand the constraints of her budget. And delivering assurances of fighting your corner when results are delivered. A skilled leader gets your continued passion and engagement at the same price. You should come out of that meeting feeling 10ft tall.

[Omm]

Hey mate, sorry I was turning this into a more general discussion. The fact you were offered this position demonstrates you are engaged and good at your job.

But check it out, you "love the company you work for" and hope to continue, you have "integrity", you will produce a "professional performance" regardless and no doubt as a leader you won't let your team down. So you can see that forking out another pay rise doesn't actually get the company anything. Only the perception of your happiness and a feeling of worth.

The area manager said "different banding, nothing I can do".

This is a low skill level response from her because she's passing the buck and not understanding the character you are. It's probably the reason you don't get on as well as you should. A skilled leader has enough ammo here to fuel a feeling of worth within you, we wouldn't have paid anybody else this salary at this store, you are our main man, hopes at HO are sky high with you at the helm! Whilst appealing to your commercial acumen to understand the constraints of her budget. And delivering assurances of fighting your corner when results are delivered. A skilled leader gets your continued passion and engagement at the same price. You should come out of that meeting feeling 10ft tall.

No worries.

I get what you are saying here. The more i think about it the more i realize that i should probably work on my relationship with her if im to have a chance of getting what i want.

The boss boss is visiting this week, might show him my presentation 

[Dewi_cool]

Rather than trying to get a pay rise on a personal level, have you thought about putting a case together as to why you believe the store itself has been wrongly banded i.e compare turnover, profit number of staff, footfall etc and should be in a higher band thus getting a pay rise that way.

[Omm]

Rather than trying to get a pay rise on a personal level, have you thought about putting a case together as to why you believe the store itself has been wrongly banded i.e compare turnover, profit number of staff, footfall etc and should be in a higher band thus getting a pay rise that way.

Great idea Dewi, for the many not the few, higher banding is 40p per hour extra for each member of staff.

[Longines]

Very interesting to read the insights. Most of my experience has been working in niche markets where finding and keeping good people with the right mix of interpersonal and technical skills is really hard. Even though we had one of the best learning and development offerings in the industry I was still approving five figure retention bonuses on a fairly frequent basis - can't imagine working in an environment where asking for an increase marks you as someone to manage out.

[StuartHopkin]

To combat the pay me now for future returns issue you could also suggest something that is paid out once you have delivered.

Either for you or the whole store.

Assuming you have a bonus in place now for hitting a target, you could try and get them to agree a second level target where your bonus percentage increases?

[nirvana]

Very interesting to read the insights. Most of my experience has been working in niche markets where finding and keeping good people with the right mix of interpersonal and technical skills is really hard. Even though we had one of the best learning and development offerings in the industry I was still approving five figure retention bonuses on a fairly frequent basis - can't imagine working in an environment where asking for an increase marks you as someone to manage out.

I'm pretty much informed by this perspective too. There are many people I've been happy to just wish all the best and be pleased for them when leaving for a better opportunity. And many where I have been jogged into doing something when I hadn't been thinking of it myself. Recruitment fees are massive and good people have proved hard to find making retention a pretty important factor

[tikay]

To combat the pay me now for future returns issue you could also suggest something that is paid out once you have delivered.

Either for you or the whole store.

Assuming you have a bonus in place now for hitting a target, you could try and get them to agree a second level target where your bonus percentage increases?

The problem with this, even though it seems a great idea, is that this is a multi-national business with Global & UK-wide policies, which would have been formulated & approved at Board level, & I am struggling to see that they would be amenable to breaking the wage structure. Once you do that for one Store, the dam soon bursts when there are 600 of them in the UK alone. 

[tikay]

Have to add, this has been a great thread & I really enjoyed the reasoned debate.

Think MANTIS owned it though. He'll make a good deputy to Brad with a little more experience under his belt.

[Omm]

Have to add, this has been a great thread & I really enjoyed the reasoned debate.

Think MANTIS owned it though. He'll make a good deputy to Brad with a little more experience under his belt.

Ive read about Brad, now he is the sort of guy you want to work for