Changes to DTD Cash games....

[stato_1]

I mean I know what u mean and it does feel like that I guess, but how much you win/lose in a single night is totally irrelevant.

tbf no point in posting this though as:

a) Alex already knows it
b) I know it but would still likely feel the same

[Mitch]

I mean I know what u mean and it does feel like that I guess, but how much you win/lose in a single night is totally irrelevant.

tbf no point in posting this though as:

a) Alex already knows it
b) I know it but would still likely feel the same

We were talking about this last night. When your in the situation you always feel like you need to get the money back straight away, its not til the next day, you get back to the 'one long session' frame of thinking.

Im guilty of the same thing, if i get stacked, or am in a hole, i always will have enough infront of me to get out of it with a double up.

Anyway, RE: the new cash game set up;

I think a move like this is the only way to develop the player pool at any stakes bigger than 50.1.

Since the new 1/2 has started there has defiantly been an influx of new players to the game so its working and there is now a bridge between the different levels of game. The problem now is there will very rarely be enough players for a 1/3 because the ones who would have played before will now play the 1/2, so its probably going to end up being capped all week before 2/5 at the weekend.

Hopefully we can twist your arm to get the rake 5% capped at £7, or even back to 10% at £7 from 1/3 plus.

These games, especially the 2/5 are gonna hit the cap in most hands and its gonna begin to sting, effectively taking a stack off the table every couple of hours.

Maybe rob could just guarantee each pot at £5k or something.

Anyway, as always, good to see the club trying new things all the time to keep things fresh!

[robyong]

Mitch., the 5% with a £10 cap raked lower than 10% at £7. Speak with Simon. The rake on all games was much lower this week, at EVERY table level. Its a myth that the rake hits £10 every pot, our objective was to decrease the rake on all games, your £2-£5 VIP game on Friday night raked £117 per hour average, you lot spent £40 per hour on food and drink, the session charge at the Vic for that game is £7 per half an hour, so its almost identical to the rake. It makes if very hard to do any type of promotions at these new rake levels when you take out the cost of supervising the cash game area and the cost of dealers, the Vic charge for food and drink now and there only promotion is taking 50p out of every pot and its totally player financing. What do you suggest I do, I'm always open to suggestions, close the club being one of them! Players perception of cash games outside of London is that they effectively want to play them for break even costs, 5% with a £5 cap is what local casinos will do to get a game going a few punters in the door, as 99% of their revenue is no poker. We are never going to have as many games as the Vic and they give nothing away? I'm close to getting fed up of the local business here, I could make a profit just closing opening Friday - Sunday and focussing on major events, which we are good at.

[Mitch]

I agree that the new method is going to benefit the midweek games as they are, no doubt, as the 5% benefits smaller games.

The 2/5 game this week was deffo on the nitty side, but when terry, the doncaster lot, keith etc are playing and straddling i would think it would be raking much bigger and hitting the cap 95% of hands.

Theres a few ideas that players have come up with but we will have that chat after the UKIPT and see what you think will work for both parties...

A popular idea is the no/reduced rake between 8pm-9pm and 3am-4am thing but dont know if thats viable for you? Would deffo help get games started earlier and running longer imo.

[robyong]

Cool, I am open to any suggestions that players have, but if the perception with players is that 5% with a £10 cap is more expensive than 10% with a £7 cap, then i'm not going to get any uplift from the changes, if fact, if players think its costs more, then we will get less! The £1-£2 capped raked £68 per hour last week and Alex's is moaning about losing, imagine how I feel!!!!!!!

[Mitch]

LOL, imagine having to sit next to him every night....

[EvilPie]

The £68 / £117 per hour that the cash games raked. Do you get taxed on that as well or is your tax a fixed amount per table? It doesn't sound much to run a table at all.

I quite like Mitch's suggestion of a rake free hour to get the games going. Would it really make that much difference though? Will people make the effort to get there early just to save themselves their share of an hour's rake?

Have you ever thought of maybe capping the rake to an average per hour?

Say you came up with a figure of £120 per hour cap for the 1/2 game.

Every hour the box gets emptied. If there's more than £120 in it the overlay gets rolled over for the next hour. At the end of the night if there's an overlay it all goes in to a freeroll turnover hand for everyone still at the table. Could be a good way of keeping people at the table 'til the end whilst guaranteeing yourself an average per hour that you're happy with.

Also by doing this the players get to see exactly what they're paying so might stop moaning about how much it's costing them to play.

Obviously it doesn't affect me either way because if I play it's not 'til late and I'm too drunk to care about rake anyway

[robyong]

Yup, deductions are gaming tax, dealers costs, chip runner costs, free drinks, valet costs, cash game supervisors, breaks, labour to count rake, food for VIP £500+ games, all out of that, never mind staying open for the 2 cash game tables when no one else is in the building. It's just not worth it apart from Friday - Sunday when we have weekend event, we were giving an average of £11k back a month for Cash Game Bonus and players still moaned and groaned about the rake whilst some were spending as much time in the toilet and fag breaks to get the hours in and receive the bonuses.

Whatever the cap is players moan, whatever the % is they moan, if they don't win every night - players moan, session fees they will moan because games will break and players will try and avoid them. We do promos for tourney players to provide cash game liquidity and the cash game players moan that we do too much for tourney players. In fact, the players that don't moan one bit are the non locals who wish there was a DTD in their town, so they appreciate what we do!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, its poker players, it's the industry, I'm used to it but something has to give in the UK, as no legal card room can over their costs, we are lucky, we have some great events that basically fund the club for the local live players, so we can just about break even, we also get online revenues to offset club costs, okay our software is not great, but we have more non local players playing online with us that our locals, which is bizarre, maybe its cause they come to the club and don't get enuf time. Either way, I will keep on trying to reduce prices to keep everybody happy but there is a limit.

Some of our locals are real good friends of mine and support us online, in the club and spreading the word about DTD, but really, some of them think we depend on them to survive, when in reality, we dont, Dusk Till Dawn depends on our events and online revenues, we could shut Mon-Thu and not even blink an eye lid profit wise, of course, we may lose some loyalty and community feeling through, and there is a cost to that. I am trying the 7 day thing and I will give it my best shot, but this will be the last time if its not supported.

[cambridgealex]

I wasn't complaining about the rake - I'm not too fussed about it. It's better for the smaller games, but worse for the bigger games. Since the bigger games happen maybe once a week, and the smaller ones happen every day - I think on balance it could prove better for me.

I was having a moan about the cap last night, at the end of a tilty session, we all like to have a wee moan about something. Apologies.

The new limits are great overall for the cash game community, it's had an excellent impact already. Of course there's always going to be a downside, but that's just life.

[SuuPRlim]

I just think session fee's are the best thing personally.

Well no, actually I think the best thing is to just not give a fuck about the rake, in my eyes, If I win £2,000 of an evening then I don't really care that I actually won £2,150 but gave Rob £150.
If I lose £2,000 I am way more bothered about how the fuck mitch rivered that fucking straight and wondering why the hell i'm playing poker and what the fuck im doing with my life rather than despairing over the fact that the beneficiary of my terrible career choice has had to fork £150 over to Rob's lot. Next time I go in i'm sure they'll flick me a britvic55 apple I'll be all for making the rake higher.

[robyong]

"It's better for the smaller games, but worse for the bigger games".

Thats my points - BUT IT'S NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A + B = F

Not having a go at you Alex, the DC and higher NL all think the same thing, but they are WRONG. 5% with £10 is lower than 10% with £7 cap. What language should I translate this into?!

[jakally]

Yup, deductions are gaming tax, dealers costs, chip runner costs, free drinks, valet costs, cash game supervisors, breaks, labour to count rake, food for VIP £500+ games, all out of that, never mind staying open for the 2 cash game tables when no one else is in the building. It's just not worth it apart from Friday - Sunday when we have weekend event, we were giving an average of £11k back a month for Cash Game Bonus and players still moaned and groaned about the rake whilst some were spending as much time in the toilet and fag breaks to get the hours in and receive the bonuses.

Whatever the cap is players moan, whatever the % is they moan, if they don't win every night - players moan, session fees they will moan because games will break and players will try and avoid them. We do promos for tourney players to provide cash game liquidity and the cash game players moan that we do too much for tourney players. In fact, the players that don't moan one bit are the non locals who wish there was a DTD in their town, so they appreciate what we do!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, its poker players, it's the industry, I'm used to it but something has to give in the UK, as no legal card room can over their costs, we are lucky, we have some great events that basically fund the club for the local live players, so we can just about break even, we also get online revenues to offset club costs, okay our software is not great, but we have more non local players playing online with us that our locals, which is bizarre, maybe its cause they come to the club and don't get enuf time. Either way, I will keep on trying to reduce prices to keep everybody happy but there is a limit.

Some of our locals are real good friends of mine and support us online, in the club and spreading the word about DTD, but really, some of them think we depend on them to survive, when in reality, we dont, Dusk Till Dawn depends on our events and online revenues, we could shut Mon-Thu and not even blink an eye lid profit wise, of course, we may lose some loyalty and community feeling through, and there is a cost to that. I am trying the 7 day thing and I will give it my best shot, but this will be the last time if its not supported.

Don't get over-sensitized to a few comments from a minority of players.
The vast majority of cash players are more than happy to play at DTD, and wouldn't even notice, never mind care, about the specifics of rake etc.....
TBH, I've heard very few murmurrings since you changed the rake, aside from positive views from people regarding the reduction in £0.50 / £1 rake.

[cambridgealex]

"It's better for the smaller games, but worse for the bigger games".

Thats my points - BUT IT'S NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A + B = F

Not having a go at you Alex, the DC and higher NL all think the same thing, but they are WRONG. 5% with £10 is lower than 10% with £7 cap. What language should I translate this into?!

OK!

I think Mitch was saying that this Friday nights 2/5 wasn't that big, and that the normal ones we get going are MUCH bigger and perhaps will rake more with this system. Maybe over UKIPT week we'll get some figures to compare.

Even so, I don't mind as games that size are pretty infrequent, even if they were to rake more, I wouldn't mind at all (so long as there was a cash game bonus scheme )