Folding KK Pre

[iangascoigne]

     Welcome to Blonde. This is a first time for all of us. I very rarely feel equipped or confident enough to post on this part of the site but hey,here goes for what it's worth. You are  probably already aware of this but part of the issue here was caused way before you sat down. Never go to a casino abroad without your passport no matter what you have been told the night before. Your biggest live comp and you miss a whole heap of information gathering time and suddenly find yourself in a great spot but no information on how the table has been playing,the previous actions of the villain etc etc etc. This has put you at a huge disadvantage. One of the issues I always have with PHA is that no one hand takes part in isolation but is one hand in a sequence of hands involving history,moods,position and the emotional states of the players concerned. A cold analysis of a 'spot' in isolation of context is always slightly flawed in my humble opinion. Your late arrival put you in a huge information disadvantage in this situation.
      Taking all of that into account I would have  raised to 8,000 and then been prepared to re.evaluate if she shoved. It puts you in a horrible spot but KK is just to good to fold to the first bit of pressure. However I stick to the view that the hand was lost when you left your passport behind. That's not a criticism by the way,just the fact that you missed out on getting information which would have helped your decision making.
      If you call her all in and she has AA you can go to the bar and bore everyone with your bad luck coupled with the ' I knew she had aces,don't know why I called speech' or even better at the first break say how lucky you were to get it all in behind  but hit a two outer on the river. Simon Deadman and Mitch Johnson have copies of that speech if you want to ask them.
       
       

[WRJ23]

Having played in this tournament you would be horrifically wrong to fold vs 99.6% of the field. Vs a random asian lady it is hard to say. I would call in your spot. I would be comfortable backing my judgement. I think you should have perhaps just 5b gone with it. People were crazy in this field especially.

I couldn't agree more with that statement.  In fact, if the 4 bet was made by a Spanish player, or anyone who looked remotely Spanish (!!), Id've felt a hell of a lot more comfortable playing the hand more aggressively/not so badly and weakly!  I've played in Casino Marbella quite a few times, and I think against the average Spanish opponent there, a 5 bet shove would've been snapped by about 66+/A9+!!  Maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration but not far off! 

For me it was the lack of information, the fact I'd gone to Spain to play and didn't want to bust so early, and be subject to a suck out even when I get it in 70%+ ahead.  My game plan prior to the tournament was to hopefully play smallish pots (pretty nitty I admit), preferably in position, grind it out slowly, picking my spots when I think I'm good.  I suppose this hand coming up so early, and the fact I was just trying to get used to the table was unfortunate, and I should have had the balls to get it in! 

I also had a hand in my head, which I'd randomly been talking to a friend of mine about the night before the tournament, where a friend of mine in the first hand in a £500 buy in picked up AA, n it all went in pre against KK, (he won the pot), and maybe (definitely) that clouded my decision wrongly!

I know the fold is awful in long term poker terms, I agree that getting it in with KK pre is almost always +EV, and I don't think I'll do it again no matter how far I've travelled to play!

[WRJ23]

Hi Will welcome to blonde, and thanks for playing the Online cash games

I know what you are saying about wanting to play for longer, not get knocked out early but next time, or after a bit more experience, you are at least 5 betting, and probably shoving?

If she has Aces..gg, gl and hit that King

Thanks TightEnd, online cash games are really good, hope they go from strength to strength, I'll keep playing them, (especially with the great promotions ur putting on the moment!)

I agree with ur last comment completely. I think it was the fact it was so early that made m play it so badly!

[WRJ23]

     Welcome to Blonde. This is a first time for all of us. I very rarely feel equipped or confident enough to post on this part of the site but hey,here goes for what it's worth. You are  probably already aware of this but part of the issue here was caused way before you sat down. Never go to a casino abroad without your passport no matter what you have been told the night before. Your biggest live comp and you miss a whole heap of information gathering time and suddenly find yourself in a great spot but no information on how the table has been playing,the previous actions of the villain etc etc etc. This has put you at a huge disadvantage. One of the issues I always have with PHA is that no one hand takes part in isolation but is one hand in a sequence of hands involving history,moods,position and the emotional states of the players concerned. A cold analysis of a 'spot' in isolation of context is always slightly flawed in my humble opinion. Your late arrival put you in a huge information disadvantage in this situation.
      Taking all of that into account I would have  raised to 8,000 and then been prepared to re.evaluate if she shoved. It puts you in a horrible spot but KK is just to good to fold to the first bit of pressure. However I stick to the view that the hand was lost when you left your passport behind. That's not a criticism by the way,just the fact that you missed out on getting information which would have helped your decision making.
      If you call her all in and she has AA you can go to the bar and bore everyone with your bad luck coupled with the ' I knew she had aces,don't know why I called speech' or even better at the first break say how lucky you were to get it all in behind  but hit a two outer on the river. Simon Deadman and Mitch Johnson have copies of that speech if you want to ask them.
       
       

Thanks for your comment Ian.  I agree with the your comment that I lost the hand when I left my passport behind, lack of info etc.  The fact I folded this hand pre was mainly due to the fact it was so early, and for me, a big tournament I'd built myself up for for weeks.  I think what I was really asking here was 'is it acceptable to fold KK here being so early, and being so deep, bearing in mind there should be so many more spots later on'.  I'm sure the answer is 'no' and agree with what other people have said, ie. mainly, 'get it in, and if she's got AA, 'that's poker'.

One point though, by making it 8000 and re-evaluating, what am I really re-evaluating?  Am I just over min-raising to fold a shove, or just over min-raising to take down/for value expecting a shove (against a random player)?  I'd say I'm doing it to call a shove, and as bad as it may be, I didn't want to put myself in that situation so early! So weak, I know! 

I'll have to compare notes with Simon and Mitch, plenty of times I've been that guy at the bar telling my bad beat stories, much worse than KK vs AA pre though I'm sure!!

[lucky_scrote]

Hi there, I read the first post up until you said you folded (I didn't read your analysis or anyone elses).

I think I do the same as you except I make it quite a lot bigger. Being 20k deep it's going to make it very easy for people to peel. You're OOP and multi-way most of the time and I'd rather get it HU. I'm thinking more like 1250 or something.

It's quite annoying that she has made it so big now, she might not have aces but because of her sizing flatting is difficult, you are kind of committing yourself as the pot is 7k+ and you have 16k left. It won't take much action for the chips to go in.

If you jam, she is almost definitely going to fold everything but AA and KK unless she is terrible and she might not fold AKs if she is also quite bad. As it happens, an old Asian lady doesn't usually put a 4bet in with anything other than AA or KK in this spot. I'd be very surprised if she does it with Queens tbh so just fold.

It's not like "what are the chances of running kings into aces" here. You are either a pro player who has a huge edge on this field and this looks like a dreadful spot, or you are a recreational player that this is an arguably marginal spot and you are going to have your bit of entertainment in Marbella short lived. Your call.

[welsh1980]

Hi welcome
I think folding here is fine, its not the case of you having kk here, its the fact she is telling you she has AA.
Your 700 bet is fine, if you make it 1200 your giving your hand away aswell -as the lady has.
No need for getting 200bb in this early

[Nit Tendencies]

I think 3bet way bigger, and call if she 4bets. If she has worse then she'll give you the rest of the money down the streets anyway on plenty of runouts and I think that if we get it in pre we're not doing very well overall.