AK Missing flop in a cash game

[Graham C]

More cash game concerns.  I'm having trouble with my AK's when I don't hit the flop.  To be honest, in this example, I was quite surprised to get so many callers.

PokerStars Game #7734457471:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/01/02 - 19:24:20 (ET)
Table 'Clorinde' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Wpalango ($113.90 in chips)
Seat 2: bigbob1971 ($49.35 in chips)
Seat 3: bbaxel ($16 in chips)
Seat 4: Drs5763 ($84.30 in chips)
Seat 5: Joe333456 ($47.50 in chips)
Seat 6: wezvidzz ($36.35 in chips)
Seat 7: Manjaro100 ($75 in chips)
Seat 8: ETogo ($65.90 in chips)
Seat 9: Graham0573 ($29.25 in chips)
Manjaro100: posts small blind $0.50
ETogo: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Graham0573 [ ]
Graham0573: raises $3 to $4
Wpalango: calls $4
bigbob1971: folds
bbaxel: folds
Drs5763: calls $4
Joe333456: folds
wezvidzz: folds
Manjaro100: folds
ETogo: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [ ]
ETogo: checks
Graham0573: bets $8
Wpalango: folds
Drs5763: raises $17 to $25
ETogo: folds
Graham0573 said, "big raise"  - lol not quite sure why I said that and what I expected
Graham0573: folds

What does he have here to warrent that raise?  I would have thought any 2 or 4 in the hand would have resulted in a fold preflop.   Pocket 2's or 4's is a possibility I suppose, although I wouldn't call a raise with either preflop.  AA, KK would raise preflop.  Another overpair?   Isn't a reraise of that amount a bit strong?  Was the continuation bet too small?  It was a half pot bet, is reraising the pot with an overpair here a possibility or a stupid move incase I'd hit or didn't need to hit?  The raise preflop from utg was a strong move wasn't it?

Anyway, when AK misses, should I avoid the continuation bets?  I do tend to mix it up a bit and make some and check some.   I'm thinking I should be not betting at all as I seem to only lose when I don't hit and making bets and getting callers all the time is getting expensive.

[Bongo]

I'd check, with 3 others in the pot I don't think you're going to pick it up too often here.

[temp0r]

What does he have here to warrent that raise?  I would have thought any 2 or 4 in the hand would have resulted in a fold preflop.   Pocket 2's or 4's is a possibility I suppose, although I wouldn't call a raise with either preflop.  AA, KK would raise preflop.  Another overpair?   Isn't a reraise of that amount a bit strong?  Was the continuation bet too small?  It was a half pot bet, is reraising the pot with an overpair here a possibility or a stupid move incase I'd hit or didn't need to hit?  The raise preflop from utg was a strong move wasn't it?

you have a point with some of this. it's unlikely he has 22 or 44. if he's called for value with A3/A5 of hearts then it's a good raise. as he knows he's likely to be flat called by an overpair and possibly just checked on the turn. i think the main likelyhood has to be something like 55-1010. if i had 55 or 1010 here i'd figure you'd missed with AK-AJ probably. the only way to find out if the pocket pair was still ahead would be to raise as they did.

given this. if you felt like pushing it home hard you could have flat called. and if the turn was a JQKA bet the pot and pushed them off what would no longer be an overpair. it depends how defensive their raise seems given their previous play however.

edit: just thought i'd point out you're playing with only 30 BB here. that's...well...pretty suicidal in the long run. but i should hope you already knew that.

[jakally]

Anyway, when AK misses, should I avoid the continuation bets?

If you only bet when you hit, it will be easier for the rest of the table to play against you.

The main two things to consider when deciding whether to make a continuation bet (when you have missed) are the number of other players still in, and the texture of the board.

If there are more than two opponents it is highly likely that one of them will have made something on the flop, therefore a continuation bet is more likely to be a long term losing play in this situation. (Doesnt mean you should never C bet with 3 or more opponents)

When judging the flop, you are looking at what you think your opponents may have hit, and whether they think that you have made a hand.
If the flop comes low, it is more likely that the raiser has missed, given that the most common raising hands are high cards. Therefore players will more often play back at you on a low board.

Also, given that people often call raises with small / medium pocket pairs, a low flop can either give them a set, or give them an overpair. Both of these will look to play back at you.

Final thing to consider is your position.
If you are last to act then you can just check and take another card, if you think that a bet may result in a reraise.

However, as a general rule, if I am not sure which way to go I will make a C bet.

Jak.

[Dubai]

Shove

[Graham C]

Cheers guys.  I was thinking after I posted that it could be a bet on a draw or perhaps to stop me drawing to something.  I won't rule out a complete bluff - nice size pot of $16, then I stick another $8 in and he has me well covered, is it worth a stab by just betting big?

Shove

Instead of the continuation bet or as a reraise?

The 30 bb didn't help I appreciate that and I don't normally have only that at a table, I was trying something else that didn't really work out either, so it's not my normal thing.

[doubleup]

If you're playing a shortish stack it's far better to call with AKo utg - you can then push if raised.  He prob has an overpair here and is happy to raise on the flop because he has no fear of losing very much.

A reasonable early pos short stack strategy wld be to call with AKo AQo  88 99 TT JJ - raise with AKs AQs KQs AA -QQ.  Reraise with AK and JJ and  sometimes AQ and the other pairs depending on the player who raises and if there are any callers after. 

[SupaMonkey]

I don't think he had much here. You have made a weak lead at flop which has definitely missed you. If you have been making continuation bets regularly he could push with a lot here. Also, the fact that he has reraised to exactly the size of your remaining stack means he is trying to intimidate you and that is usually a sign of weakness.

[snoopy1239]

3 other players in the pot, out of position to 2 of them, a raggy flop with a flush draw...

this is a bad situation for you and it is unlikely that you will make much money from the hand, so don't be afraid to check and give it up as if it's a bag of spanners. Don't feel obliged to continuation bet just because it's Big Slick, it's only Ace high in the end and with 3 others, there's a decent chance someone has a middling pair that they don't fancy folding. Also, you could (1)  be semi-bluffed by a flush draw and (2) smooth called and pushed of the pot on the Turn or River.

Save your money. The continuation bet is way overrated in my book.

[AlexMartin]

What does he have here to warrent that raise?  I would have thought any 2 or 4 in the hand would have resulted in a fold preflop.   Pocket 2's or 4's is a possibility I suppose, although I wouldn't call a raise with either preflop.  AA, KK would raise preflop.  Another overpair?   Isn't a reraise of that amount a bit strong?  Was the continuation bet too small?  It was a half pot bet, is reraising the pot with an overpair here a possibility or a stupid move incase I'd hit or didn't need to hit?  The raise preflop from utg was a strong move wasn't it?

you have a point with some of this. it's unlikely he has 22 or 44. if he's called for value with A3/A5 of hearts then it's a good raise. as he knows he's likely to be flat called by an overpair and possibly just checked on the turn. i think the main likelyhood has to be something like 55-1010. if i had 55 or 1010 here i'd figure you'd missed with AK-AJ probably. the only way to find out if the pocket pair was still ahead would be to raise as they did.

given this. if you felt like pushing it home hard you could have flat called. and if the turn was a JQKA bet the pot and pushed them off what would no longer be an overpair. it depends how defensive their raise seems given their previous play however.

edit: just thought i'd point out you're playing with only 30 BB here. that's...well...pretty suicidal in the long run. but i should hope you already knew that.

Thank fuck there arent more players like you Tempor. Quality response. This effectively sums up all you need to know Silo and is imo pretty close to optimal strategy for AK continuation bettors when you know your opponent.
 

[temp0r]

Thank fuck there arent more players like you Tempor.