Maximising a monster

[kinboshi]

Can we get more Lloyd posts on here please, awesome contributer.

Agreed.  Stick around Lloyd .

[AlexMartin]

I check it back, ur viewed as too tight to get action from bluffs (checkraises), kings will bet flop as will fd's. Check it back, let someone takeoff, board is ridic dry and you have the nuts, give someone opportunity to do something silly.

I did bet 600, they all folded.  Oh well. I almost always bet here, btw.

My point in posting is really what Alex refers to here..if you yourself have a rock image, is there any mileage in checking, accepting the risk that someone may have two clubs, however unlikely, and hoping someone im proves on the turn?

In other words, build the pot down the streets not on the flop


Just experimenting with different thoughts.

I think you are approaching the problem the wrong way round imo. If your image is so well defined that you need to cooler people to get paid, I would contend that the fix is not to check it back in spots like this. Rather, get into the habit of betting on the come more often on these types of boards. It sounds like you have created a license to significantly open your range in a variety of situations. So start betting all your draws just as strongly and watch people take forever to adjust to your increased aggression.

Playing against what people are expecting in the broad sense = profit. Checking it back here equates to contracting your range even further and being more passive - neither of which are good as it just pigeon holes you further and makes you easier to play against. not sure bout this.  At some point in the hand your aim has to be to extract a large bet (in reality your aim should be to extract the most chips possible obv) and even if a flop check earns you a bet from one pair on the turn - everything they know about your game won't melt away when they are considering whether to call off to a value bet on the river just because you checked the flop.

The old mantra of "changing gears" doesn't just apply to an individual session or series of hands. If you are regularly playing tournaments amongst a relatively small playing base (i.e. usually four or more faces you know at a table) then you should be constantly shifting strategy in the medium to long term picture (wide to contracted range and then back again).

If you open up your betting frequency eventually (by the sounds of it in your case it would be a while!  ) you'll reach a point where you are getting owned by light call downs a few times - at which point you go the opposite direction and start tightening up again. Play against the tide, or something. THIS

Good post. I deffo agree that tighty should be opening his betting range on all flops. I think you are blending two concepts, which (when the player pool is ridic soft and small) are pretty much the key issues here. Metagame is one and exploitation v exploitabiliy is the other. Given one is rendered obsolete by the fact bad live players dont adjust at all, i think we can safely assume we can go for exploitation 100% of the time given we wont ever be exploited. As Lloyd says in his last sentance, this will revert at some stage (in 2021), but with your image so well ingrained you really need to increase your bluffing frequency a lot and make a point of showing everybody how wide your ranges are.

[kinboshi]

I check it back, ur viewed as too tight to get action from bluffs (checkraises), kings will bet flop as will fd's. Check it back, let someone takeoff, board is ridic dry and you have the nuts, give someone opportunity to do something silly.

I did bet 600, they all folded.  Oh well. I almost always bet here, btw.

My point in posting is really what Alex refers to here..if you yourself have a rock image, is there any mileage in checking, accepting the risk that someone may have two clubs, however unlikely, and hoping someone im proves on the turn?

In other words, build the pot down the streets not on the flop


Just experimenting with different thoughts.

I think you are approaching the problem the wrong way round imo. If your image is so well defined that you need to cooler people to get paid, I would contend that the fix is not to check it back in spots like this. Rather, get into the habit of betting on the come more often on these types of boards. It sounds like you have created a license to significantly open your range in a variety of situations. So start betting all your draws just as strongly and watch people take forever to adjust to your increased aggression.

Playing against what people are expecting in the broad sense = profit. Checking it back here equates to contracting your range even further and being more passive - neither of which are good as it just pigeon holes you further and makes you easier to play against. not sure bout this.  At some point in the hand your aim has to be to extract a large bet (in reality your aim should be to extract the most chips possible obv) and even if a flop check earns you a bet from one pair on the turn - everything they know about your game won't melt away when they are considering whether to call off to a value bet on the river just because you checked the flop.

The old mantra of "changing gears" doesn't just apply to an individual session or series of hands. If you are regularly playing tournaments amongst a relatively small playing base (i.e. usually four or more faces you know at a table) then you should be constantly shifting strategy in the medium to long term picture (wide to contracted range and then back again).

If you open up your betting frequency eventually (by the sounds of it in your case it would be a while!  ) you'll reach a point where you are getting owned by light call downs a few times - at which point you go the opposite direction and start tightening up again. Play against the tide, or something. THIS

Good post. I deffo agree that tighty should be opening his betting range on all flops. I think you are blending two concepts, which (when the player pool is ridic soft and small) are pretty much the key issues here. Metagame is one and exploitation v exploitabiliy is the other. Given one is rendered obsolete by the fact bad live players dont adjust at all, i think we can safely assume we can go for exploitation 100% of the time given we wont ever be exploited. As Lloyd says in his last sentance, this will revert at some stage (in 2021), but with your image so well ingrained you really need to increase your bluffing frequency a lot and make a point of showing everybody how wide your ranges are.

Or surely he can continue bluff with almost complete impunity?  Are you saying that live players tend not to adjust their play according to the player; or that they pigeon-hole a player and then that image is cast in stone?

[MANTIS01]

Lloyds Back! Excellent. And what a good post to return with. Everything he's said is quite correct, especially for remoulding a new image and trading off it. However, in this specific spot with today's image checking it back is still the best line for the here and now for all the reasons that have already been mentioned. That said the long term ambition for us all must be to arrive at an image and style of play which is the most profitable it can be.

[AlexMartin]

I check it back, ur viewed as too tight to get action from bluffs (checkraises), kings will bet flop as will fd's. Check it back, let someone takeoff, board is ridic dry and you have the nuts, give someone opportunity to do something silly.

I did bet 600, they all folded.  Oh well. I almost always bet here, btw.

My point in posting is really what Alex refers to here..if you yourself have a rock image, is there any mileage in checking, accepting the risk that someone may have two clubs, however unlikely, and hoping someone im proves on the turn?

In other words, build the pot down the streets not on the flop


Just experimenting with different thoughts.

I think you are approaching the problem the wrong way round imo. If your image is so well defined that you need to cooler people to get paid, I would contend that the fix is not to check it back in spots like this. Rather, get into the habit of betting on the come more often on these types of boards. It sounds like you have created a license to significantly open your range in a variety of situations. So start betting all your draws just as strongly and watch people take forever to adjust to your increased aggression.

Playing against what people are expecting in the broad sense = profit. Checking it back here equates to contracting your range even further and being more passive - neither of which are good as it just pigeon holes you further and makes you easier to play against. not sure bout this.  At some point in the hand your aim has to be to extract a large bet (in reality your aim should be to extract the most chips possible obv) and even if a flop check earns you a bet from one pair on the turn - everything they know about your game won't melt away when they are considering whether to call off to a value bet on the river just because you checked the flop.

The old mantra of "changing gears" doesn't just apply to an individual session or series of hands. If you are regularly playing tournaments amongst a relatively small playing base (i.e. usually four or more faces you know at a table) then you should be constantly shifting strategy in the medium to long term picture (wide to contracted range and then back again).

If you open up your betting frequency eventually (by the sounds of it in your case it would be a while!  ) you'll reach a point where you are getting owned by light call downs a few times - at which point you go the opposite direction and start tightening up again. Play against the tide, or something. THIS

Good post. I deffo agree that tighty should be opening his betting range on all flops. I think you are blending two concepts, which (when the player pool is ridic soft and small) are pretty much the key issues here. Metagame is one and exploitation v exploitabiliy is the other. Given one is rendered obsolete by the fact bad live players dont adjust at all, i think we can safely assume we can go for exploitation 100% of the time given we wont ever be exploited. As Lloyd says in his last sentance, this will revert at some stage (in 2021), but with your image so well ingrained you really need to increase your bluffing frequency a lot and make a point of showing everybody how wide your ranges are.

Or surely he can continue bluff with almost complete impunity?  Are you saying that live players tend not to adjust their play according to the player; or that they pigeon-hole a player and then that image is cast in stone?

im saying that maximising your hand value is more important than belencing your betting range in this spot, that tightys range needs to be wider to get more action and that he needs to bluff a heap more to get paid off with the goods.

[celtic]

then fold on the flop

Yes, but wait til it's checked to you, then look at the dealer, shake your head in disgust and fold face up.

and say.... fucking learn to deal something decent you useless prick?

If you say this you have to throw your drink at him pretty much 100% of the time.

Surely if we do this 100% of the time he villain gets wise and starts to duck when we throw the drink?
If we do it about 72% i think this would maximinse the chances of getting them full in the face?

hmmm a bit results orientated imo. Must do it 100% If it's the correct move then its the correct move 100%.

[MANTIS01]

then fold on the flop

Yes, but wait til it's checked to you, then look at the dealer, shake your head in disgust and fold face up.

and say.... fucking learn to deal something decent you useless prick?

If you say this you have to throw your drink at him pretty much 100% of the time.

Surely if we do this 100% of the time he villain gets wise and starts to duck when we throw the drink?
If we do it about 72% i think this would maximise the chances of getting them full in the face?

hmmm a bit results orientated imo. Must do it 100% If it's the correct move then its the correct move 100%.

Yeah, pretty much agree with this. Dashing the drink 100% of the time is correct, however I would say varying the size of the drink makes you much less predictable. Order a double scotch, 1/2 a bitter, and a pint of lager dash, and put them on the little table by your seat. You can then mix your drink dashing up a bit and this would render you fairly unplayable imo.

[AlexMartin]

never seen celtic drink in his life. celtic do you drink or is it beneath you?