£1/3 live hand from the Vic

[AlexMartin]

Thanks everyone for all the responses.

Unfortunately I made two mistakes this hand. I acted too quickly and I didn't give villain any credit for being decent.
 
I called hoping he had a flush draw as I can't beat anything else here - he just didn't look the type of kid to lead here with air.

I moved in for the rest and he called with KK.

I obviously didn't play the hand nearly as well as I should have, maybe due to being frustrated at the pace of live cash. Or maybe I just got pwned....

I'm still not sure I like his lead though as on a day when I get out of bed on the right side I pass here.

Now we know he had KK what do we think of his lead for £150?

i think its shit. he has no idea about you and ur range for this kind of action preflop 9handed. He gets the money in good against only queens and doesnt let you bluff at a big pot w AK/AQ (which u obv wouldnt do here but he doesnt know ur decent). I really hate it when players play dumb like this and get rewarded.

[GreekStein]

His lead looks smart because he got you to call. The power of hindsight..

But seriously, leading into someone who has re-raised you pre-flop makes some sense if you have mentally committed yourself to a favourable flop. After all, if he checks it to you, it might get checked back, he has lost value and you might also outdraw him. He can make up for his lack of position and his knowledge that you are also strong, strong enough to find a reason to disbelieve him and shove.

I see this all the time live and indeed have played it this way myself before.

As you said, maybe you needed more time to study him, talk to him perhaps and then work out your response to his 'donkbet'. And remember, just because he has led into you, doesn't always mean it's a bet from a donk. The great thing about poker is that there are no absolutes and there are a lot of different ways of getting the job done.

I don't think you played it badly necessarily. As multiple replies have noted it was a tricky spot. Just sigh and move on!

I'm not dwelling on it because I'm annoyed about the hand, just think its interesting to look at all angles of it.

I don't hate the option to lead, but £150 is too much imo. It means literally the only two hands he can beat that I can shove with are QQ and AK diamonds.

Thanks everyone for all the responses.

Unfortunately I made two mistakes this hand. I acted too quickly and I didn't give villain any credit for being decent.
 
I called hoping he had a flush draw as I can't beat anything else here - he just didn't look the type of kid to lead here with air.

I moved in for the rest and he called with KK.

I obviously didn't play the hand nearly as well as I should have, maybe due to being frustrated at the pace of live cash. Or maybe I just got pwned....

I'm still not sure I like his lead though as on a day when I get out of bed on the right side I pass here.

Now we know he had KK what do we think of his lead for £150?

i think its shit. he has no idea about you and ur range for this kind of action preflop 9handed. He gets the money in good against only queens and doesnt let you bluff at a big pot w AK/AQ (which u obv wouldnt do here but he doesnt know ur decent). I really hate it when players play dumb like this and get rewarded.

Yep me too...especially when it's me that's rewarding them!

I like leading online when I've been reraised pre and I'm trapping with a big pair or have flopped a set because opponents seem to insta-raise me almost every time.

I feel if he's gonna lead at all here he should make a weak bet of like £75 which I'm likely to raise and commit myself anyway.

One day I will be Alex '25000bb stack' Martin....

[AgentChip109]

i probs raise pre here even if u can see guy counting out a raise. do u know wot his reranging range is? a lot of ABC players will literally only reraise KK-AA. if he does reraise u then u can have a clearer idea of wot he may have and play from there as u see fit

[AlexMartin]

His lead looks smart because he got you to call. The power of hindsight..

But seriously, leading into someone who has re-raised you pre-flop makes some sense if you have mentally committed yourself to a favourable flop. After all, if he checks it to you, it might get checked back, he has lost value and you might also outdraw him. He can make up for his lack of position and his knowledge that you are also strong, strong enough to find a reason to disbelieve him and shove.

I see this all the time live and indeed have played it this way myself before.

As you said, maybe you needed more time to study him, talk to him perhaps and then work out your response to his 'donkbet'. And remember, just because he has led into you, doesn't always mean it's a bet from a donk. The great thing about poker is that there are no absolutes and there are a lot of different ways of getting the job done.

I don't think you played it badly necessarily. As multiple replies have noted it was a tricky spot. Just sigh and move on!

I'm not dwelling on it because I'm annoyed about the hand, just think its interesting to look at all angles of it.

I don't hate the option to lead, but £150 is too much imo. It means literally the only two hands he can beat that I can shove with are QQ and AK diamonds.

Thanks everyone for all the responses.

Unfortunately I made two mistakes this hand. I acted too quickly and I didn't give villain any credit for being decent.
 
I called hoping he had a flush draw as I can't beat anything else here - he just didn't look the type of kid to lead here with air.

I moved in for the rest and he called with KK.

I obviously didn't play the hand nearly as well as I should have, maybe due to being frustrated at the pace of live cash. Or maybe I just got pwned....

I'm still not sure I like his lead though as on a day when I get out of bed on the right side I pass here.

Now we know he had KK what do we think of his lead for £150?

i think its shit. he has no idea about you and ur range for this kind of action preflop 9handed. He gets the money in good against only queens and doesnt let you bluff at a big pot w AK/AQ (which u obv wouldnt do here but he doesnt know ur decent). I really hate it when players play dumb like this and get rewarded.

Yep me too...especially when it's me that's rewarding them!

I like leading online when I've been reraised pre and I'm trapping with a big pair or have flopped a set because opponents seem to insta-raise me almost every time.

I feel if he's gonna lead at all here he should make a weak bet of like £75 which I'm likely to raise and commit myself anyway.

One day I will be Alex '25000bb stack' Martin....

be careful, good online players will raise donk leads only if you are an unknown probably fish, purely because so many idiots lead like 88 on a a/k/q/j board to "find out where they are", hence why raising is so profitable. I typically always raise donk bets until villain reveals the strength of his donk range. Players dont balance this and normally its either V strong or marginal.

[Pyso]

I see what Alex is saying and I agree with it as a general principle. My angle on it is that I feel the KK guy has 'trap'-called hoping for a favourable flop - it looks like he is trapping with his kings and has already decided that if you have aces then so be it.

Yes, he does take away the option of you bluffing into him but as I said earlier if it's checked back that's not much use to him either.

I think I'm just trying to say that an out of position bet which has become known as a 'donkbet' doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have any merit. The example you quote Alex with 88, yes that would be a donkbet and not something I would do on a scary board either, but this hand was KK on a J,7,x two-tone flop so I am trying to imagine where the oppo was coming from with his Kings against our hero.

I suppose this hand is quite a standard spot, the real debate to me seems whether the lead bet has any merit or not. I always reckon every option has some merit, even if it may be tiny..on this occasion I think it's less clear cut - I feel opinions would be more easily divided here, but of course quoted opinions can now be skewed because we know what hands everyone was playing - lol.

[totalise]

donking is dumb unless you are doing it into a person that wont know how to exploit it... and if thats the case, you dont care about balance because they wont be able to exploit you, and timeless axioms tell you that its fine to be exploitable against people that wont exploit you. Against good players, its just so hard to balance a donking range that you are either a genius or you are over-estimating the profitability of the move.... and the law of the internet dictates that the latter is much more likely to be true then the former.

As for this hand, you cant really play it like you did preflop if you aren't gonna stack off postflop, but I'd much rather just raise it first time round pre and try and get some isolation against the fish/see what the other guy does.