Theoretical WSOP Question

[GreekStein]

I'd prob call with K-Qs if I knew he had 2-2. But I don't know he has 2-2. I do know he'd have a lot of A-x hands thou.

so he has a lot of Ax hands? really? but you dont call 99 TT JJ? - you must be good because you are passing up some edge!

lets cut to the chase - what do you think his range might be?

My own calling range would be TT+ A-K. Like I said, I couldn't rightly figure a range for villain because he's just sat down. And because I have no reliable range I couldn't make reliable calculations. So it's unlikely I'd get my knickers in a twist ref edge %'s in this hand. Once again you address these remarks to me and not Flushy.

well we have been having a "conversation" but my points are applicable to all.

The point is you do have some information, from media reporting, knowing dwan, having the specific set up of teh OP, so the fact that you think that you dont shows that you are limiting your own ability to make well informed decissions (i think the hand quote by Camel clearly shows that the people who think he is shipping very wide are probably correct in this instance).

I am also pretty sure that flushy doesnt make poker decission on how he "might look like a div", so you shouldnt include him within your specific reasoning, until he confirms that he would do this!

Flushy is good at poker Mark, you should stick to fishing.

[MANTIS01]

I'd prob call with K-Qs if I knew he had 2-2. But I don't know he has 2-2. I do know he'd have a lot of A-x hands thou.

so he has a lot of Ax hands? really? but you dont call 99 TT JJ? - you must be good because you are passing up some edge!

lets cut to the chase - what do you think his range might be?

My own calling range would be TT+ A-K. Like I said, I couldn't rightly figure a range for villain because he's just sat down. And because I have no reliable range I couldn't make reliable calculations. So it's unlikely I'd get my knickers in a twist ref edge %'s in this hand. Once again you address these remarks to me and not Flushy.

well we have been having a "conversation" but my points are applicable to all.

The point is you do have some information, from media reporting, knowing dwan, having the specific set up of teh OP, so the fact that you think that you dont shows that you are limiting your own ability to make well informed decissions (i think the hand quote by Camel clearly shows that the people who think he is shipping very wide are probably correct in this instance).

I am also pretty sure that flushy doesnt make poker decission on how he "might look like a div", so you shouldnt include him within your specific reasoning, until he confirms that he would do this!

Yah, and when people read Super System in the 70's they knew Brunson and knew how he played right? And he didn't adjust to that. I'm not denying we have some scraps of info and I'm not denying Dwann may have a couldn't care less attitude to this tournament, I simply don't want to emulate his carefree attitude. I'm not Dwann and I'm not playing every event. I have time to get more concrete info and make more informed decisions. I don't know how that translates to limiting my ability to make informed decisions. You always say your comments apply to all and yet only ever quote me. The trouble is there are a lot of brown noses on the forum, some small brown noses and some big brown noses.

I agree Flushy is a good player. I watched a vid of him once shipping 3k at 25/50 with A-K where he got snapped by A-J or something. I thought hmm never tried that and next tournament open shipped with A-A. Got snapped by A-Q. It said in the chatbox Observer: lol @ shipping Aces.

[EvilPie]

This is how seriously Durr is taking the small events:

http://www.pokernews.com/live-reporting/2010-wsop/event-18/post.146774.htm

LOL @ just calling with KK+ and AK.

I wonder how difficult it is to take these events seriously when the buy in is 2.5 big blinds of his regular cash game.

It's like me playing a £5 freezout and I know I could never take that seriously.

[GreekStein]

This is how seriously Durr is taking the small events:

http://www.pokernews.com/live-reporting/2010-wsop/event-18/post.146774.htm

LOL @ just calling with KK+ and AK.

I wonder how difficult it is to take these events seriously when the buy in is 2.5 big blinds of his regular cash game.

It's like me playing a £5 freezout and I know I could never take that seriously.

In the $10k stud, Durr gave Ivey $15,000 in order that he could buy another 150% of himself.

lol

[outragous76]

I'd prob call with K-Qs if I knew he had 2-2. But I don't know he has 2-2. I do know he'd have a lot of A-x hands thou.

so he has a lot of Ax hands? really? but you dont call 99 TT JJ? - you must be good because you are passing up some edge!

lets cut to the chase - what do you think his range might be?

My own calling range would be TT+ A-K. Like I said, I couldn't rightly figure a range for villain because he's just sat down. And because I have no reliable range I couldn't make reliable calculations. So it's unlikely I'd get my knickers in a twist ref edge %'s in this hand. Once again you address these remarks to me and not Flushy.

well we have been having a "conversation" but my points are applicable to all.

The point is you do have some information, from media reporting, knowing dwan, having the specific set up of teh OP, so the fact that you think that you dont shows that you are limiting your own ability to make well informed decissions (i think the hand quote by Camel clearly shows that the people who think he is shipping very wide are probably correct in this instance).

I am also pretty sure that flushy doesnt make poker decission on how he "might look like a div", so you shouldnt include him within your specific reasoning, until he confirms that he would do this!

Yah, and when people read Super System in the 70's they knew Brunson and knew how he played right? And he didn't adjust to that. I'm not denying we have some scraps of info and I'm not denying Dwann may have a couldn't care less attitude to this tournament, I simply don't want to emulate his carefree attitude. I'm not Dwann and I'm not playing every event. I have time to get more concrete info and make more informed decisions. I don't know how that translates to limiting my ability to make informed decisions. You always say your comments apply to all and yet only ever quote me. The trouble is there are a lot of brown noses on the forum, some small brown noses and some big brown noses.

I agree Flushy is a good player. I watched a vid of him once shipping 3k at 25/50 with A-K where he got snapped by A-J or something. I thought hmm never tried that and next tournament open shipped with A-A. Got snapped by A-Q. It said in the chatbox Observer: lol @ shipping Aces.

Your super system quote has no relevance in relation to this point

You are chosing not to use any of the info you have on dwan in the fear that he might have the top of his range. Thats ok as an MO I suppose. I terms of the reminader of the game, I assume that you will therefore avoid playing anything but Nut hands agaionst dwan for the remainder of the tourney?

You seem (in part) to direct your brown nose comment at me, which I find both insulting, incorrect and childish. I only need to cite this thread as an example to prove you wrong. Evil pie is someone who I get on with, yet chose to disagree with him on this thread.

Not sure what relevance your AA hand example has without any type of context.

Going back to the discussion we were trying to have before you got childish, Im not sure what the TT and JJ hands are doing in your range. Also you have previously mentioned in the  thread that you think he has alot of Ax hands in his range, why therefore can you not complete your  assessment of the reminader of his range might be?

[outragous76]

from bryan devonshires blog - speaking of the 1500 event

" People were busting so fast that we eliminated almost 90% of the field in ten hours of play, good for a pace of about four bustos per minute"

[GreekStein]

Ridiculous thread. There is no way I am ever snapping 22 here, even in the bb, camel's posts in this thread must be a level. Firstly 22 vs atc is something like 50.5%, so barely +ev even in that best case scenario, and then even if dwan really is shoving atc the opportunity cost of snapping 22 here is huge, one the equity from dwan doing the same again the next hand and two the equity from our edge against the average wsop $1500 nlhe field.

finally!!

I'm convinced Keith is joking or just has ridic amounts of money to burn

[EvilPie]

Ridiculous thread. There is no way I am ever snapping 22 here, even in the bb, camel's posts in this thread must be a level. Firstly 22 vs atc is something like 50.5%, so barely +ev even in that best case scenario, and then even if dwan really is shoving atc the opportunity cost of snapping 22 here is huge, one the equity from dwan doing the same again the next hand and two the equity from our edge against the average wsop $1500 nlhe field.

So what would your range be in this theoretical situation?

[The Camel]

Nope not joking or levelling.

I did think I was in the bb though, I wouldn't call with 22 otb.

In the exact situation of it being his first hand and noone left to act I would call with 22, purely because of the huge advantage you gain with a double stack in these events. I would also get the added bonus of getting rid of one the best players in the world from my table if I win and the rest of the table will think I'm a complete idiot.

I think all that is enough reason to call in an event I am probably 1000-1+ to win.

[The Camel]

In the exact situation of it being his first hand and noone left to act I would call with 22, purely because of the huge advantage you gain with a double stack in these events. I would also get the added bonus of getting rid of one the best players in the world from my table if I win and the rest of the table will think I'm a complete idiot.

I think all that is enough reason to call in an event I am probably 1000-1+ to win.

I agree having a double stack is nice but I wouldn't say my equity is more than double my equity at the beginning. Maybe it is very close to double, but definitely not more. As for getting rid of one of the best players in the world from your table, he's not playing like the best player in the world if he's shoving blind. It's very much to your advantage to have him at the table for as long as he's doing this which is the main reason I say the opportunity cost of busting out is very high. If someone else doubles him up and he starts to run over the table then yeah take 0ev flips against him but for now if he's gonna shove the next hand then you have some extra quantifiable equity from that in your stack if you fold.

Really don't get the last statement. I'd be more inclined to call 22 if it were a 9 man sit'n'go which I'm 8-1 to win than in this tourn, the reason being that you get huge edges down the line, eg. on the bubble, which make your tournament life worth protecting.

I think my equity would go up way more than double if I had a double stack in one of these tournaments. And I can't see how it's even close.

[outragous76]

Ridiculous thread. There is no way I am ever snapping 22 here, even in the bb, camel's posts in this thread must be a level. Firstly 22 vs atc is something like 50.5%, so barely +ev even in that best case scenario, and then even if dwan really is shoving atc the opportunity cost of snapping 22 here is huge, one the equity from dwan doing the same again the next hand and two the equity from our edge against the average wsop $1500 nlhe field.

So what would your range be in this theoretical situation?

James mthfkn keys agreed with my range, my life is complete
I would find 66 and 88 an easy fold and call respectively, I would probably call AJ and probably fold A9, snap call KQs and A9s, 50/50 with AT KQo A8s and 77. Next hand, or if I was sure he hadn't looked, it'd be slightly looser but at this stage I'm not certain that he hasn't just deemed this an easy way to get good value from something top 10%.

[NigDawG]

i'd just ask him what he has. if he's really looking to gamble he will probs just say/effectively say. if he doesn't then maybe his range is abit tighter than people think