Mucking?

[Poppet7]

There is an ongoing argument in our house, wondering if any of you could help sort it once and for all...

If both players have checked after the river and the other player has turned over their cards and beaten me, do I have the right to muck or do I have to show?

[Graham C]

you can muck

[Poppet7]

Exactly what I said! I know that in online poker even if all players check and a player shows the winning hand the other players can muck, I tried to tell them that it's allowed but it turned into a big argument, and they still don't believe me! Doh!

[gatso]

Next time you play wait until you've got a winning hand at showdown and say you're going to muck it. When they insist you show your cards flip over the winning hand and mumble something like  'didn't realise I had the straight flush, good job you made me show it' while collecting your winnings.
I guarantee they'll never stop you mucking again

[Poppet7]

(cough) I think you mean my royal flush!

That's a good idea though!

[thetank]

Even though you can muck your losing cards in a showdown online, on most sites you can review the hand history and discover what all hands at the showdown were.

Within the standard TDA rules there is a rule that any player at the table can request to see a players cards that went to showdown. It is to help prevent any chip passing (a player with a winning hand mucking his cards so his buddy can be pushed the pot). It is bad etiquette to continually insist upon seing what cards people are playing using this rule.

Homegames do not use standard TDA rules, they can do as they please. It is unlikely that you have to worry about any chip passing. Private games are typically more friendly affairs and so there is probably no need for such a rule.

If they want to play like that though, you have to go along with the majority. Just make sure you put the information gained via this rule to better use than they do.

[AdamM]

think of the betting in poker as a bartering process. you're agreeing a price to continue.
round one you're agreeing a price to see the flop, round two to see the turn, round three to see the river and round four TO SHOWDOWN. at any point that agreed price can be zero. If it's check - check or bet - call it's showdown. However, if I'm dealing and a player mucks I'll only flip them over if someone asks. I'll collect the winners cards, discards, remaining pack and flop up first but if I'm not asked I'll gather th mucked cards last.
people say it's bad etiquette to ask to see them but if you want all the information available I say stuff etiquette. Cash games it's always bad form to ask to see. it's not even 'on their backs' if the money goes in prflop.

[snoopy1239]

I've never understood how abiding by the rules is bad ettiquette.

I want to see other people's cards at a showdown due to the amount of information that can be garnered.

[thetank]

I like a cardroom where the dealer enforces the rule as standard.

Where a player has to request to see, it can be see as needling a player, or even as an accusation of cheating.

There is a big potential drawback to asking to see someones mucked cards in a showdown. A player might have made a loose call. Having to show the whole table could shame them into tightening up. If they are a new player, it could even contribute to them being turned off the idea of playing live poker again.

I'll rarely insist on seeing a players cards. Unless it's one of my more experienced buddies and I want to needle them. 

[Newmanseye]

I'll rarely insist on seeing a players cards. Unless it's one of my more eperienced buddies and I want to needle them. 

Bugger, so thats why you do it!!

[snoopy1239]

So if it's checked down, who turns over first?

[AdamM]

both together, on their backs.
to correct myself, it depends on the players and the game if I flip them my self

[snoopy1239]

Well I like to learn something from my opponent if it's checked down, so I might as well just hold my cards until he/she shows.

That way, I don't have to be accused of bad etiquette if I request to see his mucked cards.

[Robert HM]

I think there was a long and heated debate about this in another thread. The Camel and another pro agreed to disagree about it in the end.