family pot, short stacked

[gatso]

would appreciate thoughts on this hand, I've been running it over in my head for a week now and still not sure how I should have played it. I can see a case for folding pre flop and on the turn and also for pushing on any of the streets, would like to know what you chaps would do.

I'm on the button and in major yo-yo mode, have been in a lot of pots but just took a big hit and I'm down to 1,225. blinds at 100/200, avarage around 4,000.

Action to me is 5 limpers and 2 folds, I look down at    (let's ignore the fact it's the full Wilson and treat it like any other hand). As both blinds are weak players  I'm not expecting any raise behind me so I limp and we end up with an 8 way pot.

Flop 

It's checked to mid position mateyboy (average chips) who bets 500 and folded round to me. I'm pretty sure he's missed as I've seen him make the same move several times with a big ace while he's tended to check when he's hit. That makes me fairly sure my 4 and 7 are both live against him as well as my straight draw.

I flat call. Should I have pushed here to try and keep it heads up rather than letting in someone who may have paired on that flop?

Everyone else folds

Turn  check, check

River   

Checked to me. I now know I'm behind but consider throwing in my last 525 but eventually check and muck to his 

It's over to you

[dan]

if you have made up your mind to play this after the flop i think you should push all in. why call for half your stack you are then commiting yourself anyway. your read was good on the guy who led out on the flop he might of passed his AK but if it was folded back round to him im not sure he would but you would of had 14 outs against him. obviously you dont know for sure that 6 of them are live.

[matt674]

If it were me, i would fold preflop - you have nothing invested in the pot at the start of the hand and with so many limpers you would need to catch a monster flop to have any hope of winning the hand (even if you do hold the "full wilson" - sorry, monkey still not a believer ) you would be better off keeping the chips as there is bound to be a better opportunity to push all in before the blinds get back to you.

If you do call i agree with Dan, you have to push all in after hitting the draw and getting the pot heads up - then cross your fingers.

[SupaMonkey]

Personally i would have considered going all in preflop to try and nick the pot there but i don't think you had enough and you have been called.

In your position i would have gone all in on the flop only if i was sure he had nothing (if he has something you're 69% fav to lose). You have no FE so you have to be sure he has nothing but then you are 50-50 and the win would be a sweet 3600 chips. Otherwise you should have folded.

If you had bet the river you probably would have been called. Your bet would look like a busted draw trying to buy the pot and he has enough to beat a busted draw. Plus he would be gettting 500-3100.

[totalise]

if you have made up your mind to play this after the flop i think you should push all in. why call for half your stack you are then commiting yourself anyway. your read was good on the guy who led out on the flop he might of passed his AK but if it was folded back round to him im not sure he would but you would of had 14 outs against him. obviously you dont know for sure that 6 of them are live.

you call in these stacks because you have no reason to stick the rest of it in. There are typically two reasons why people shove their stack in:

a) to get value out of the best hand
b) to make people fold

When Mr AK bets 500.. our hero has 500 left.. how often do you think he is going to fold AK in that spot...the answer is pretty close to zero..so that makes point b) invalid.. and at the moment we are stuck with 7 high, so that makes point a) invalid as well.. so you should just be calling here if you intend to play the hand.

The thrust behind this thinking in a nutshell is that you get paid 100% of the time when you hit, and you need to hit to win obviously, so calling down is preferable to moving in because :

When you call down instead of moving in.. you win the same amount of chips as if you move in, but sometimes  you get a free turn and are still in the tourney if you miss... so you win the same as jamming when you hit, but you dont ALWAYS lose the same when you miss, which is a pretty good spot to be in**

** of course it doesn't always work like this, there are no absolutes in poker, but this is the general premise behind why you do it

Its possible that by raising you can possibly get your 4 and 7 to become clean outs, but its also the case that if someone behind you has better then a pair of sevens, he isn't folding anyways, so it goes back to the point of not getting hands out that you really want to go out, and stopping others coming along for the ride (which wouldn't be bad at all with your draw.. getting overcallers and exceptional value on your $ in these spots is always nice)

[SupaMonkey]

I agree (good post by the way) by callling you are giving others 5-1 on the pot so you may encourage other callers. However, by encouraging other callers you are reducing your chances of remaining in the tournament so surely you want your 4 & 7 to be clean outs.

In this hand it worked out quite nicely but there easily could have an/other caller/s and had anyone bet on the turn, our hero would have been to forced to call. I am surprised that our hero made it to the river with his chips.

I think survival is key in a tournament. Isn't this a call in a cash game and an allin in a tournament?

[totalise]

I agree (good post by the way) by callling you are giving others 5-1 on the pot so you may encourage other callers. However, by encouraging other callers you are reducing your chances of remaining in the tournament so surely you want your 4 & 7 to be clean outs.

In this hand it worked out quite nicely but there easily could have an/other caller/s and had anyone bet on the turn, our hero would have been to forced to call. I am surprised that our hero made it to the river with his chips.

I think survival is key in a tournament. Isn't this a call in a cash game and an allin in a tournament?

I think once you decide to play such a filthy hand, its quite clear that you aren't overly concerned with staying in the tourney anyways.. so its probably best to try and maximize equity.. but calling down here IS the best way to ensure survival (apart from folding) because your chips aren't going in the middle 100% of the time. If you move in, then they most certainly will call, and then you wont survive unless you hit. Maybe a small % of the time you lose a few outs with the 4 and the 7, but then at the same time if you jam the flop and someone behind the AK guy calls, you can be pretty sure that the 4 and the 7 aren't outs anyways..  its not like they are gonna be sticking around with 22 or something like 2 upaired high cards if you just smooth call....so its not something I would worry about too much

As for the "hero has to call the turn if other people stick in the pot" comment, well thats kinda the whole point of just calling. He is getting the rite odds on the turn no matter what happens, and if he intends to get his chips in on the flop, then it doesn't matter at all whether he is calling to get them in on the turn. Most of the time you dont get a free look at the river anyways, and end up calling off your stack on the turn, but its the small % of the time that you do that makes calling imo much more preferable to pooooooshing in spots such as these

[gatso]

Cheers all. I'm now happy with the way I plated the hand.

Agree 100% with totalise, any time I wanted to put the last of my chips in I was getting a call so why rush?

Now I just need to question whether I should've been in the pot at all.