Should i quit the cash tables?

[suzanne]

Before I went to the Western p4c game I went through a bad patch on stts (what used to be my breadwinner) so I ventured onto cash and found I did pretty good.

Normal night would be loose $25/30 on $5 stts, with the odd win, go on cash 10/20c and win $30/50.

Since then I found I have done better on stts but cash has gone to hell.

I went through $200 in the week after p4c which is a lot for me, then got my form back and im doing reasonably ok..ie won back my $200 and holding steady.

Trouble is....when I went through my bad patch I took a fair bit of abuse about my bad play and I now have a couple of players who STALK me.

They sit at my table with a bigger roll and tease me to go allin, so unless ive got a hand im blinding away.

I dont know what to do...I either have a totally disasterous night like 2 night ago when I lost $80 or a good night like last night when i won $170

I have moved up to 50/1 and I know i have FISH written all over me but these (2 guys) are basically bullying me into playing iffy hands and then slagging me off big time when they hit.

I enjoy playing cash but this has dented my confidence.

If players are looking for me it must mean im a soft target??

So should I give it up for a while?

[suzanne]

Can a mod please delete this...after reading it I think I answered my own question

[JungleCat03]

A couple of points I'd make suzanne.

First stts and cash are really different games.

Cash to me is a lot about patience and stamina and mentally outlasting people. One of the reasons why cash games can be so popular is the majority of people just don't have the patience to sit there and nut peddle at the lower levels. Boredom soon sets in for most people and they wnat to dance around in pots with all sorts of funky hands. Wait them out and take them on with mroe solid holdings and you'll come out ahead in the long run. It's rock like, it's nut peddling, it can be very boring but at these limits you can beat the game playing this way.

(If you play higher limits you'll need to expand your repetoire of hands and mix it up more as the players will be better and less liable to pay off your good hands.)

While you are waiting for hands, keep an eye on the players around you. They are throwing information at you in every pot they play. Soak it all up. Put them on hands based on how they play. When you're wrong, think about why they played that hand the way they did. Get inside their heads. Do they call big bets on the turn with flush draws? Do they bluff a lot? When they overbet the pot, what does this mean?  The next time you get in a pot with them, this will be invaluable information.

You might see them call a big bet with top pair on the river. Great. Next time you are in a pot with them with a set or two pair on the river, make a big bet, chances are you'll get called.

Work out your game plan as you go along. Who's the value in the game(is flushie on the table)? Who are the stronger players ? In general try and play your bigger pots when you have position and therefore more information.

BUT play YOUR game on YOUR terms.

Don't let other players goad you or bully you. If they are doing it in the chat and you can't ignore them, turn the chat off! It's crucial that you don't let other players unsettle or fluster you as you wont be focusing fully on the game. Laugh at them. One reason they might be trying to unsettle you is because they feel they don't have a poker edge over you so are lookign for other means to mess up your concentration. Don't let them!

One thing you mentioned was the swings in cash. Well cash is a bit like that. You can have some magic nights on cash where you win big scores but you will also lose sometimes. That's the way it goes unfortunately. No limit can be a volatile game. One big pot can be the difference between being well up or well down for the session.

If you lose some big hands and are not sure of how you played them, post them up on the hand analysis page. Don't worry if you feel embarrassed about your play. You'll get positive feedback from most posters and consructive criticism. Learn from this and you'll have improved. Maybe you played the hand perfectly and were unlucky.

Hope some of this rambling has helped in some way.

Good luck, let's hear how you get on!

[Tonji]

Lots of excellent advice from JungleCat. Take a short break from Cash Games, then jump right back & get that enjoyment back. Switching between sites can help. Good Luck Suzanne

[Wrigley]

I guess it's always a good idea to switch to another game if you're fed up with cashgames.

Try SitNgoes or multis, maybe even omaha.

[LukieD]

Managing your bankroll well is extremely important. From the sounds of it you are playing stakes which don't currently suit your bankroll. Playing .50/1 the min. buyin in is $10 but realistically that doesn't give you much to play with so say you are buying in for $50 you bankroll should be AT LEAST $1500. Then if you lose a buyin it won't affect you roll as much.

Another important thing is to take breaks at the right time. If you lose a buyin and realise you are playing badly then stop and take a break. If was an unlucky bad beat it might be worth taking a break to avoid tilting. Another piece of advice I have heard is if you have a couple of bad days then drop down to a lower level, get your confidence back whilst at the same time risk losing less and then when you feel you have your game back move back up.

Whilst moving between STTs, Cash and MTTs can help some people you must be careful because each requires very different skills and some people are unable to effectively vary between each which can lead to losing $$$$$.

[TightEnd]

Suzanne, I take it you do not want this deleted?

Even more so because of the excellent advice from JungleCat and others?

[Claw75]

Hi Suzanne,

If these guys are intimidating you, why not try playing on another site for a bit?  Hope you keep winning!

Claire x

[thetank]

Name and shame I say.

The hunters may become the hunted 

[KeithyB]

       JungleCat

[KeithyB]

Hi Suzanne,

You know I can never resist commenting on one of your hand analysis/ self analyis type postings. I think this is probably due to the fact we clearly  move in similar areas and levels of the poker world  ( but folks I’m not one of her stalkers…ok! )

Loads of points raised so going through them in order


Normal night would be loose $25/30 on $5 stts, with the odd win, go on cash 10/20c and win $30/50.

Since then I found I have done better on stts but cash has gone to hell.

As Jungle Cat says, in his excellent post, these are two very different games. Cash games are all about being patient and being very selective about which hands and positions you play whereas STT’s quickly build into situations where, out of necessity, you are involved in pots far more frequently.

Going from STT’s to cash games will make the cash game seem very boring and will result, unless you are very disciplined, in a mental urge to play far more hands than you should.

I went through $200 in the week after p4c which is a lot for me, then got my form back and im doing reasonably ok..ie won back my $200 and holding steady.

Is this the result of your “form” though or just natural poker variance?  Every poker player in the world will experience peaks and troughs like this.  Have you looked back at the big hands that you lost in the first week together with the ones won in the second and noticed any differences in the way that you played them?

Trouble is....when I went through my bad patch I took a fair bit of abuse about my bad play and I now have a couple of players who STALK me.

They sit at my table with a bigger roll and tease me to go allin, so unless ive got a hand im blinding away.

Ok….not nice. After all I imagine that essentially you play poker, like myself, primarily for fun.  Yes we play to win but ultimately it’s entertainment as much as anything.

Firstly are you saying these players stalk you together or separately?  If it’s together then don’t play them as it’s highly likely they could be involved in collusion against both you and other players.

If it’s individual stalkers then I reckon you have the ability to take them on and beat them providing you just play your normal game and don’t react to any chat.

I would imagine these guys try verbal abuse with lots of players and have singled you out now maybe because you reacted to it initially? Did your style of play change when the abuse started?

If you don’t want the hassle of putting up with these guys ( I’m assuming they are guys! ) then don’t play them. Like I said before this online poker thing should primarily be fun!!!!

If you want to take one of them one then you have to ensure you do not get distracted by any comments in chat box.  Patience again will be a virtue here, wait for premium hands only and then play them strongly.  Likelihood is that your all-ins with premium hands will get paid.   It’s also worth trying to ensure that you sit to the left of your opponent therefore getting position on him in virtually all hands.

I dont know what to do...I either have a totally disasterous night like 2 night ago when I lost $80 or a good night like last night when i won $170

Again variance must be mentioned here although, to me,this is quite a large variance if you’re only playing 0.10/0.20.   ( depends though on how many hours you’re playing too of course! )

But lets put things into perspective here Suzanne….even if you have two bad nights for every good one you will still end up in profit!!!!!

I have moved up to 50/1 and I know i have FISH written all over me but these (2 guys) are basically bullying me into playing iffy hands and then slagging me off big time when they hit.

Not a good move here Suzanne to be honest.  You are not moving up for the right reasons, your variance will now be five times larger, you will need a much bigger bankroll and you will be meeting better players.  Think about the fact that any standard preflop raise will mean investing $3/$4 in a single hand….are you comfortable with that?

I enjoy playing cash but this has dented my confidence.

Probably the most revealing and relevant line of your post.   I think you are very much a confidence player. If you can stick to your game and not let things affect your confidence too much you will do well.

If players are looking for me it must mean im a soft target??

Suzanne, it means that probably they gained a reaction from you and you let this affect your play?

So should I give it up for a while?

No I don’t think so but perhaps you have to evaluate a few things.

My conclusion would be :-

Firstly, you can play the game well enough to more than hold your own at the levels you currently play.  I’ve played enough with you and have seen enough of your posts about your play to know this for a fact.

Secondly, you seem to be doing ok overall from this poker thing!  The ups seem to outweigh the downs in your post!

However maybe you need to ask yourself the following questions to see if certain factors are affecting your game in a detrimental fashion at times?

1.   Are you too impatient to be involved in hands when playing cash games after STT’s?
2.   Do you let other player’s negative comments affect your game?
3.   Are other players able to tell that their comment’s have affected your gameplay/confidence?
4.   Does your current overall bankroll situation affect your gameplay?
5.   Do you look at hand histories and evaluate your play in the big cash pots (wins and losses)?

Hope this helps, Keith

[Pokerron]

Good thread, I'm glad it wasn't deleted!

Managing your bankroll well is extremely important. From the sounds of it you are playing stakes which don't currently suit your bankroll. Playing .50/1 the min. buyin in is $10 but realistically that doesn't give you much to play with so say you are buying in for $50 you bankroll should be AT LEAST $1500. Then if you lose a buyin it won't affect you roll as much.

Whilst moving between STTs, Cash and MTTs can help some people you must be careful because each requires very different skills and some people are unable to effectively vary between each which can lead to losing $$$$$.

Interesting and timely advice, I was going to start a thread asking about bankroll requirements for NL cash games.   I am sure the answers will help Suzanne too (after all this is her party!)

I currently play $100 STT with 20 x buy in which some say is too low, but it is comfortable for me and has ensured I can handle bad beats without going on tilt and chasing.   It has served me well for the last 2 years but now I keep getting the urge to try my hand at NL cash.

With that in mind I was going to use my STT bank roll to build a NL cash bankroll over the next few months, so I could give that a serious go.   Are you saying that 30 buy ins is what I should be looking at having?  Does anyone agree/disagree with that?  

I am a patient/tight/aggressive player and would also welcome advice on optimum number of players per table and whether the suggested bankroll allows for multi tabling.  

Also, all my books (other than the usual 'bibles' are on tournament strategy, can anyone recommend any good NL cash game books that have been released recently?

[LukieD]

There is huge variance between what people say is an adequate bankroll for playing cash. I have seen people say 10 buy ins is enough and others say you should have 50 for NL, and 1,000 BBs for limit. I go on ~30 buyins for NL which has suited my game (tight/aggressive). I am sure some of the better cash players who play higher stakes than me could offer some better advice though.

By the way suzanne they might be finding it easy to stalk you as they have you on their buddy lists (assuming you are playing on a tribeca.) You can set it so only people on your buddy list can see what tables you are on by opening the buddy list, selecting options > privacy and choosing "Allow only users on my buddy list." This might not stop them but will at least make it harder for them and mean they have to go through all the tables to find you.

[Bongo]

Are they intimidating you verbally or are they playing aggressively towards you aswell?

If it's the latter then you should be able to adjust your game to exploit this and give them a bit of a fleecing

[suzanne]

WOW some fantastic advise...THANK YOU very much to all who took the time to answer.

Junglecat, I must admit I don't really have the patience for cash. I only tried it one day as I went through a bad patch on stts. The 9 seaters I found VERY boring but the 6 seaters suits me to a tee. I have found if I play fishy to start with I can steal quite easily and then when I am caught out "Why did you call with that rubbish" I rock up and perhaps play one hand with a monster thus doubling/trebling up, so I then have some $$ to play properly. Perhaps this is why I "upset" people 

Obviously this can sometimes go disasterously wrong.

Good advice too about sussing out the other players and I really MUST start making notes on players.

The bullying and goading used to make me laugh and I can usually give as good as I get but its getting a bit annoying now. I will take your advice and switch off the chat if I feel myself getting annoyed and block people not on my buddy list (didn't know you could do this).

So thank you for the rambling a very good post indeed.

Bankroll....I am aware that I am playing outside of my bankroll on 50c/$1, I usually play 25c/50c so is this still too high with a bankroll of $400? The reason I am giving it a try is because I was advised by a friend to move up a stake as he considered me to be "good enough", he probably thought my bankroll was bigger though.

Keithy, your comments as always are much appreciated. As you say we have progressed at similar levels......to be continued