ABE, Anyone but England?

[Nem]

I cant wait for Scotland to qualify for a major championship, since they stopped making any more "only fools and horses" we need another bloody good comedy on tv

[thetank]

I'll support the Scots at anything including Elephant Polo as long as they are not playing England.

I ignored Mel Gibson. I suggest you ignore the media if it distorts your normally sensible view that much.

While neither agreeing, nor disagreeing, with the points made by Lazaroonie, I think the comparisom of one singular motion picture written by an American, to several tabloid newspapers published every day, over the course of many years, is not altogether a fair one.

Ignoring a film is possible, ignoring the media is slightly more difficult. It's scope goes beyond that of just the printed page, Laz saw the man with the inflatable spitfire on the telly.

[thetank]

Interesting thread... but however you dress it up, it really is a football thing, I personally love it when Scotland lose and I fully appreciate the Scottish boys revelling in an England defeat.

We dont want to kick 7 bells out of each other, we just like to have a chirp or give a rub down when the results go the way we want them too.

It is the same for @rse & Spurs fans, we work together, play together,drink together.... but will never want each others team to win anything. Its just the way it is.

I cant wait for Scotland to qualify for a major championship, since they stopped making any more "only fools and horses" we need another bloody good comedy on tv

Kev makes a lot of sense. Just a football thing folks.

I take exception to the last sentence, but they'll be plenty oppurtunity to extract revenge for that kinda remark in a week or so.

[TightEnd]

Fair enough, the analogy I made with the film was an unfair one stilted in my favour. I apologise.

Surely though most people with half a brain, and Laz has an excellent brain, should take the witterings and xenophobic claptrap of the tabloids and the consequent spitfire wielding antics of the "fans" who blindly get brainwashed by their output with a huge pinch of salt and recognise that it is not reflective of the vast majoritiy of people's views.

That said, millions of people a day buy the red-tops...a whole different debate but one which supports Laz not me to be fair

[NoflopsHomer]

Following on from this thread. I'd recommend you all watch this. Stewart Lee does a gig in Glasgow where he rips into both the Scottish and English, and does this whole section on Braveheart and says that William Wallace was gay (because he wore a skirt), but that that was a good thing because Scotland wasn't afraid to have a national hero who was gay, where as England's heroes weren't so progressive. Anyway it's very funny and worth watching whether you're a 'scot' or a er....'an eng'.

[GlasgowBandit]

I'm proud of the way the tartan army and Scottish club sides travel. We don't clash with police and wreck the town if we lose.

Except Rangers who are the only club in scotland with an affinity towards England - coincidence? 

Right, lets get back to the matter in hand.  Its not about hate, its sporting rivalry.  I don't want to see England win at anything.  Infact I take joy from seeing you boys loose.  The main reason for this is as a scot we are reminded of all the English achievements at every turn, through your biased commentators.  If you could win with grace then I think that would dilute much of the problem.

The whole idea of Britain is only to make England more powerful, the thoughts and wishes of the Scots, Welsh and the occupied part of Ireland are not often considered when any decisions are made, even in the sporting arena people from within the Isles are only classed as British when it suits the English media. 

Take examples from any sport when any the Celts are doing well theya re considered to British but when they are not performing then automatically they revert back to being from the country of birth.  Colin Montgomery, Paul Lawrie, Barry McGuigan, Ian Woosnam, Liz McColgan, Lee McConnell they have all suffered like this at the hands of English commentators over the years no doubt the same will be said of Andy Murray in years to come.

In regards to Nationality I would describe myself as a Celt.  I was born in Scotland, but like many others in the West of Scotland my family are origianally from Ireland and that is something I have never forgotten, I hold both a British and Irish Passport.  If travelling abrod, I tavel on my Irish passport.  If meeting anyone abroad of I would never describe myself as being British.  Its the negativity that surrounds it.  Britain had committed so many atrocities in many countries over many years. British no thanks - I can't wait for the day that we can travel as Europeans!

[henrik777]

It is just before the England v Brazil match. Ronaldinho goes into theBrazilian changing room to find all his teammates looking a bit glum.

"What's up?" he asks.

"Well, we're having trouble getting motivated for this game. We know it's important but it's only England. They're sh*te and we can't be bothered."

Ronaldinho looks at them and says, "Well, I reckon I can beat them by myself. You lads go down the pub."

So Ronaldinho goes out to play England by himself and the rest of the Brazilian team go off for a few jars.

After a few pints they wonder how the game is going, so they get the landlord to put the teletext on. A big cheer goes up as the screen reads " Brazil 1 - England 0 (Ronaldinho 10 minutes)". He is beating England all by himself!

Anyway, a few pints later and the game is forgotten until someone remembers, "It must be full time now, let's see how he got on." They put the teletext on.

"Result from the Stadium 'Brazil 1 (Ronaldinho 10 minutes) - England 1 (Lampard 89 minutes)."

They can't believe it; he has single-handedly got a draw against England!! They rush back to the Stadium to congratulate Ronaldinho. They find him inthe dressing room, still in his gear, sitting with his head in his hands.

He refuses to look at them. "I've let you down, I've let you down."

"Don't be daft, you got a draw against England, all by yourself. And theyonly scored at the very, very end!"

"No, no, I have, I've let you down. I got sent off after 12 minutes."





Sandy

[Sheriff Fatman]

I support the Scots/Welsh/Irish (including the Republic of Ireland) teams whenever they're playing, unless they're playing England.  This is partly because I identify much more closely with them than with the mainland European teams.  (Besides, if we dig back far enough we've probably all got some ancestry with at least one of these countries.)

The other reason is that they are usually among the underdogs to qualify for a tournament from their Group (there's usually one or two 'big' European teams in there) and I have a strong tendency to support the underdog.

Put the situation in reverse and this element is missing.  England, if anything, are hyped up to an extent beyond what their historic achievements deserve.  We're bracketed in the same category as Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Italy, etc but we've achieved far less historically than these teams.  Consequently, as a team who are consistently hyped beyond their abilities, we're an easy team to hate, and that's before we take into consideration any nationalism!

I don't pretend to understand the history/politics behind the anti-English sentiment among the Celtic nations.  However, I can understand from my own experience how these sentiments develop from an early age.  I grew up in an area where coal mining was the main industry for most people.  Within my family mine was the first generation which didn't automatically go down the pits as a career 'choice' upon reaching adulthood.  

Consequently, it was very hard, during the 1980's especially, to avoid anti-Southern sentiment when living within this environment (the 'North/South divide' was a very real thing in those days, less so nowadays!)  My point is not to argue the merits of this but to merely use it as an example.  If these prejudices exist and are passed on from generation to generation (as was the case at the time) within England itself then its not difficult for me to see how the same thing happens among the Celtic nations where there's a much greater weight of history available to support those prejudices.

I think the majority of people (as Tank and Laz have indicated by their posts here) merely take these sentiments to the extent of a bit of sporting rivalry, and that's how it should be.  After all, there's absolutely nothing wrong with displaying a bit of National pride.  However, there are a minority on all sides who view it as something far deeper than this, which can sometimes lead to problems.

The one puzzling thing for me is that the problems seem to be isolated to football rivalries.  They stopped the Home Internationals in the mid-80s because of all the crowd trouble and yet I'm not aware of any similar problems arising from 5/6 Nations Rugby matches which attract similar numbers of travelling supporters amongst the same national groups.

Sheriff

[jammer]

The whole idea of Britain is only to make England more powerful, the thoughts and wishes of the Scots, Welsh and the occupied part of Ireland are not often considered when any decisions are made, even in the sporting arena people from within the Isles are only classed as British when it suits the English media. 

I don't agree with this at all bandit. This is the media yet again, and us in england feel something similar. What you are really talking about is a LONDON bias - all those backslappers in fleet street.

The rest of england hates them just as much as scotland so try to tarnish the rest of us with the cockney centre-of-the universe bias Cracking example - national stadium should have been in birmingham. Second city, easy to get to from everywhere, the perfect place. But no. They stick it in some cess pit in the arse-end of London that noone can get to and will cost a fortune.

[TightEnd]

I'll leave comments about NI being an "occupied part" of Ireland alone. I suspect I might be struggling if I open up that one.

and the whole idea of Britain is to make England more powerful? Sorry, you've lost me....I thought the ABE thing was merely a sporting phenomenon according to most on here, clearly for a minority this is not the case

Don't national assemblies in Scotland, Wales and N Ireland help counter your thought that  "the thoughts and wishes...........are not often considered when any decisions are made"?

and

[lazaroonie]

Fair enough, the analogy I made with the film was an unfair one stilted in my favour. I apologise.

Surely though most people with half a brain, and Laz has an excellent brain, should take the witterings and xenophobic claptrap of the tabloids and the consequent spitfire wielding antics of the "fans" who blindly get brainwashed by their output with a huge pinch of salt and recognise that it is not reflective of the vast majoritiy of people's views.

That said, millions of people a day buy the red-tops...a whole different debate but one which supports Laz not me to be fair

part of the problem is that the witterings and xenophobic claptrap is INCESSANT. It is a physical impossibility to watch any match in which John Motson is commentating, without every event in the match being linked somehow to the England team. That to be honest, is very alientating to non English people

England winning the world cup wont make me happy. But I will derive pleasure from knowing that some good friends of mine would be happy at that prospect. If that makes any sense.

[marcro]

I find it amazing and very sad that such feelings between nationalities, and even countries making up a nation, is so prevalent in today's society.

[The Baron]

Put the situation in reverse and this element is missing.  England, if anything, are hyped up to an extent beyond what their historic achievements deserve.  We're bracketed in the same category as Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Italy, etc but we've achieved far less historically than these teams.  Consequently, as a team who are consistently hyped beyond their abilities, we're an easy team to hate, and that's before we take into consideration any nationalism!

Believe me Portugal, Italy, Holland and Spain (all underachievers in football bar Italy) are all indoctrinated the same way in their countries about their national teams. The only difference is that the Scottish lads don't see this day in day out, hour after hour. It happens though.

[Newmanseye]

I'm proud of the way the tartan army and Scottish club sides travel. We don't clash with police and wreck the town if we lose.

Except Rangers who are the only club in scotland with an affinity towards England - coincidence? 

Right, lets get back to the matter in hand.  Its not about hate, its sporting rivalry.  I don't want to see England win at anything.  Infact I take joy from seeing you boys loose.  The main reason for this is as a scot we are reminded of all the English achievements at every turn, through your biased commentators.  If you could win with grace then I think that would dilute much of the problem.

The whole idea of Britain is only to make England more powerful, the thoughts and wishes of the Scots, Welsh and the occupied part of Ireland are not often considered when any decisions are made, even in the sporting arena people from within the Isles are only classed as British when it suits the English media. 

Take examples from any sport when any the Celts are doing well theya re considered to British but when they are not performing then automatically they revert back to being from the country of birth.  Colin Montgomery, Paul Lawrie, Barry McGuigan, Ian Woosnam, Liz McColgan, Lee McConnell they have all suffered like this at the hands of English commentators over the years no doubt the same will be said of Andy Murray in years to come.

In regards to Nationality I would describe myself as a Celt.  I was born in Scotland, but like many others in the West of Scotland my family are origianally from Ireland and that is something I have never forgotten, I hold both a British and Irish Passport.  If travelling abrod, I tavel on my Irish passport.  If meeting anyone abroad of I would never describe myself as being British.  Its the negativity that surrounds it.  Britain had committed so many atrocities in many countries over many years. British no thanks - I can't wait for the day that we can travel as Europeans!

After reading your post Bandit, I struggle to find where being British has a negativity surrounding it. I know you are a fairly level headed bright bloke and i would have thought these minor prdjudices are beneath you.

In history there have been atrocities committed by many different cultures and nationalities throught the ages, Is that any reason why we in this modern age should continue to carry a grudge?

I for one think not, Having both an Irish and Highland Scottish family ancestory I have an axe to grind as much as anyone else, yet on my CV, Passport and Driving License my nationality is British, I see no good can come of hanging on to old grudges. Take the Orange and Hibs marches as an example, what possible good comes from the grudges that these marches promote each year? None as far as I can see, similarly with holding grudges against the British nation.

Please dont take this post the wrong way, I just struggle to comprehend your reasoning.

Cheers

Billy

[ifm]

Glasgowbandit you are the reason this thread was a bad idea, very predictable stuff, nonsense of course.
The Ireland jab i didn't expect though.
As for golfers who play for "Great Britain & N Ireland" in comps and "europe" in others your argument is pretty much dead, same with athletics Liz McColgan runs under a British flag.
There is no doubt Britain have raped and pillaged their way across the world, history is quite clear on that but the contributions to other societies are also there for all to see.