Where has the beautiful game gone ?

[AndyG]

Hi everyone, I like many others have been in love with the game of poker for years and have not been suprised by its massive increase in popularity after all it is the true "beautiful game". However along with this increase in popularity I wonder if the game itself has lost some of its beauty, Will we ever again see a final table made up of world class players or will it from now on be a table of 10 with a couple of players who have been lucky enough to avoid damage along the way and the rest of the final table made up of chuck it in with any 2 suited cards and see what happens if its you day its your day. Sure everyone makes moves and it has always been the case you cant win anything without the ablility to do that but am I on my own when I watch players making calls that are beyond comprehension sometimes. Take this weeks WPT (not a small buy in by any means) guys puts a strong raise in pre flop with AA and gets called by K 10 ! where does the K 10 player think he is pre flop ? surely 67 or 89 or a hand like that is a better hand to be just calling the raise with pre flop, does it not occur to the guy that if he is up against AK KK or AA he is in dire trouble if he hits his flop unless he hits what he hit 2 pair that is.

It doesnt matter how strong your starting hand is if your raise gets called by a couple of loons preflop how strong is your hand likely to be after the flop vrs 4 other random cards ? are we reaching the point where poker has become 2 card lottery ?

[matt674]

Sure everyone makes moves and it has always been the case you cant win anything without the ablility to do that but am I on my own when I watch players making calls that are beyond comprehension sometimes. Take this weeks WPT (not a small buy in by any means) guys puts a strong raise in pre flop with AA and gets called by K 10 ! where does the K 10 player think he is pre flop ? surely 67 or 89 or a hand like that is a better hand to be just calling the raise with pre flop, does it not occur to the guy that if he is up against AK KK or AA he is in dire trouble if he hits his flop unless he hits what he hit 2 pair that is.

It doesnt matter how strong your starting hand is if your raise gets called by a couple of loons preflop how strong is your hand likely to be after the flop vrs 4 other random cards ? are we reaching the point where poker has become 2 card lottery ?

I dont care where they come from but i want people calling my preflop AA raises with K-10 every day of the week - if it doesnt occur to the guy that he is in dire trouble then good, law of averages says i will win more than i will lose and i'll continue to hopefully show a decent profit.

Yes in poker no two cards are unbeatable preflop but i hope that i can use my skill to try and minimize the luck factor as much as possible and whilst yes at the end of the day i cannot control how the cards will fall i hope that in the long run i will be able to outplay my "K-10" calling friend and will continue to build my bankroll while others fall by the wayside......

[VANDAM]

well said andy ,i see you have been given a lesson by another internmet pro ,unless you have skandi mentality do not bother turning up, you can not protect any hand now because these muppets will call with any two cards there is no skill in lobbing it in,tell me how you can get a read on one of these guys.,we have some great players in this country but i think they are getting priced out,but will it ever come back to the good ol days i think not .but we still play don't we (cannon fodder) more like,

[bolt pp]

I completely disagree, I love these guys, they pay my bills.

You dont have to get reads on these guys or play poker against them, just keep on turning over hands consistantly.

[TightEnd]

Lets face it tournament poker has a very high short term luck element, during the course of winning any tournament you have to win races, avoid outdraws, get steals and moves through against some of these festival/WPT fields .....its a big ask

and because the new breed of player seems that much more willing to gamble a lot of guys are now taking on more coin flip situations early on in the hope of getting big chips. Firstly to be able to use a big stack but secondly and just importantly to be able to withstand the bad calls that hit etc that once upon a time would have crippled them

I have written on ther main site before about how I think festival fields have changed in this regard...for most the days of sitting and wating for premium cards is over. There are exceptions but I think my argument holds.

Now that the EPT/WPT fields are full of internet players you just have to accept that a number have become extremely wealthy on the back of online...they are hardly going to change their styles when they hit the live scene when it forms such as small part of their bankrolls and they are in the event on the cheap are they?

[Bongo]

tell me how you can get a read on one of these guys.

And thus they have you on the back foot regardless of your starting hand, unless you happen to flop an absolute monster of course.

[AndyG]

This wasnt meant as any form of slight towards players its just I do have a tinge of sadness that I dont think we will see again a competition final table made up of players that use finese, position and reads to win mainly due to the fact that somewhere along the way they will have been mugged by someone with A4 "SUITED" who had to throw his chips in after his pre flop raise has been reraised cos he is "pot commited" when his original raise is prob only 20% of his stack lol, ofcourse this player will blow his stack at some point with another play at a later date it just depends who is the lucky guy on the day.

As I said this is not a dig at anyone just an observation that in my opinion all comps are now treated like a £20 rebuy and as a player that over the years made a decision to keep moving up buy in levels to avoid this style of play and endless crapshoots I now find it difficult to get a game, but that is my choice.

However I do feel that it is only a matter of time before there are competitions run that are invite only as the growth of televised poker continues, people want to see personalities and craftsman on televised final tables not whoever happened to be lucky that day and will never be seen again 

[Bongo]

If you want the beautiful game then watch "High Stakes Poker" full of name players, deep stacks, no blind increases and they can buy more chips at any time. It's a joy to watch.

[VANDAM]

High Stakes poker ,a breath of fresh air, great tv, great players,proper poker,bring it back quickly,Daniel Negrano brings $1,000,000  to the table,he is a class act

[Tonji]

If you want the beautiful game then watch "High Stakes Poker" full of name players, deep stacks, no blind increases and they can buy more chips at any time. It's a joy to watch.

  sheer class, alot more finesse than your average TV tournament.

[allym]

Spot on Bingo and VANDAM! High Stakes Poker brilliant stuff! Sammy Farha deserves a mention aswell he played pretty much any 2 cards! Roll on series 2!

[totalise]

well said andy ,i see you have been given a lesson by another internmet pro ,unless you have skandi mentality do not bother turning up, you can not protect any hand now because these muppets will call with any two cards there is no skill in lobbing it in,tell me how you can get a read on one of these guys.,we have some great players in this country but i think they are getting priced out,but will it ever come back to the good ol days i think not .but we still play don't we (cannon fodder) more like,

hi Vandam

if this is the case, then you should be a multi-millionaire from poker as long as you play against these people correctly.. as the player profile you mentioned above is the easiest to beat... unless you are just "unlucky" against them

Of course, if you are like many of the old school, I bet the words "how could you call, dont you know what I was representing" are uttered very often


Poker, like any unsolvable game, will go through differing periods of revolution, and the ability to adapt and change is essential to being a winning player. What does your definition of "beautiful game" entail.. sitting there waiting for the nuts? hoping people underbet hands when you are on draws? is this where the problem stems from? because if you have an ounce of common sense, having someone lump in their stack with A4 suited should not be cause for concern

Naturally its easy to blame the internet players.. these are the ones that cause the old timers the most problems.. but when you think about it, the old timers dont cause the internet players any problems whatsoever, they are the people the hotshots want to play against.. so I ask again.. who is playing the game wrong?

Profit source in poker comes from people making mistakes.. if you cant identify where they are making mistakes, or if you are the one making mistakes, it is likely that you are nowhere near as good as you think you are

instead of doing an inward analysis of all this however, just write it off as *bad luck* and blame it on the internet players.... or better yet, blame it on variance.. as long as its someone else playing bad and not you

[VANDAM]

i have just woken up after reading that,tell me what skill  there is with internet poker i'll tell you nobby head not alot and yes i do moan when i paid £300 to enter a freez and raise with queens and get call with 7/2 off and the nobby head hits full house on the flop over and out.

[thetank]

Can't you get away from your overpair? 

[totalise]

i have just woken up after reading that,tell me what skill  there is with internet poker i'll tell you nobby head not alot and yes i do moan when i paid £300 to enter a freez and raise with queens and get call with 7/2 off and the nobby head hits full house on the flop over and out.

if you are losing your entire stack on a 772 or 722 flop, then you might want to take a look at that part of your game rather then saying the other guy played bad. I'd expect better play in a £300 comp

Anyways, its apparent that you are stuck on your ways, and your opinion is such that you will always pour scorn on internet players, so thats the end of my participation in this thread

"nobby head"... gold