Where Did I Go Wrong Here?

[Phil]

Ok, I'm normally a fairly tight player, but have been trying to change gears nearer the bubble (attempting to get more 1st place finishes and less 7th-10th), so playing like this is a bit alien to me, and I'm trying things out, so comments would be appreciated.

With the exception of passing pre-flop (which is obviously an option at this stage), how do you play this different?

45 Left, with 40 paid... Here's my exit hand...


------HAND 5------
Game #2875893584: Hold'em NL (300/600) - 2006/07/02 - 22:09:33 (GMT)
Table "Tourney 2955997 - 4" Seat 4 is the button.
Seat 1: mrcoffee (8788 in chips)
Seat 2: LINCOLNIA (8925 in chips)
Seat 3: flintjim (17420.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Boro1971 (14160 in chips)
Seat 5: Jayb74 (2665 in chips)
Seat 7: Nodleks (1525 in chips)
Seat 8: Popeye147 (6381.50 in chips)
Seat 9: Tench164 (24986.50 in chips)
Seat 10: Paul2014 sits out
Jayb74: posts the ante 75
Nodleks: posts the ante 75
Popeye147: posts the ante 75
Tench164: posts the ante 75
Paul2014: posts the ante 75
mrcoffee: posts the ante 75
LINCOLNIA: posts the ante 75
flintjim: posts the ante 75
Boro1971: posts the ante 75
Jayb74: posts small blind 300
Nodleks: posts big blind 600
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to mrcoffee [ ]
Popeye147: folds
Tench164: calls 600
Paul2014: folds
Paul2014 sits back
mrcoffee: raises to 1800
LINCOLNIA: folds
Paul2014 sits back
flintjim: folds
Boro1971: folds
Jayb74: folds
Nodleks: folds
Tench164: calls 1200
----- FLOP ----- [ ]
Tench164: checks
mrcoffee: bets 2400
Tench164: calls 2400
----- TURN ----- [ ][]
Tench164: checks
mrcoffee: bets 4513 and is all-in
Tench164: calls 4513
----- RIVER ----- [ ][]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
mrcoffee: shows [ ] (A Pair of Fours, Ace high)
Tench164: shows [ ] (A Pair of Kings, Ace high)
Tench164 collects 19001 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot 19001 Main pot 19001 Rake 0
Board [ ]
Seat 1: mrcoffee showed [ ] and lost
Seat 2: LINCOLNIA folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: flintjim folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Boro1971 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Jayb74 (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Nodleks (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Popeye147 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Tench164 showed [ ] and won (19001) with A Pair of Kings, Ace high
Seat 10: Paul2014 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Jim-D]

I think as soon as he calls the flop bet its kinda obvious he has a king so id be done with the hand.

[Phil]

Betting the ace is bad idea none the less though? My idea was that that was the 'scare card' I needed to continue the bluff... (and I thought AK was unlikely)

[Wardonkey]

I don't like the raise pre-flop, if you raise with small pair then you really want everyone to pass. Tench isn't going anywhere to that raise and unless you hit a set you'll never know where you are on the flop withour risking a lot of chips.

In this situation it is better to either just call and try to flop a set or just pass. Save raising with these kind of hands for when no-one has entered the pot.

[Lee]

Ok, I'm normally a fairly tight player, but have been trying to change gears nearer the bubble (attempting to get more 1st place finishes and less 7th-10th), so playing like this is a bit alien to me, and I'm trying things out, so comments would be appreciated.

With the exception of passing pre-flop (which is obviously an option at this stage), how do you play this different?

45 Left, with 40 paid... Here's my exit hand...

Firstly, everything i say here is my opinion only.

I see this a lot and have read similar quite a few times with regards to changing gears. When you realise you need to change gears regularly to start winning tornies, to start with its a bit alien. You don't actually change gears, all you do is play some medium hands harder. Hands such as 44, AT, KQ etc. More often than not, the playing of these hands is something you should have been doing anyway, so your game improves, however not in the manner you aimed for.

Your situation here with 44, is a classic example. You have been dealt a PP, it is very likely that you have the best hand pre-flop, yet you see this as changing gears as you chose to play it. His call on the flop can only spell danger for 44, he is big CL, so can play marginals, especially if he has notes on you. I can't think of anything that he could have which doesn't have you beat.

Playing marginals and changing gears is a hard thing to go through. It tests your belief in the philososphy and if there are any flaws in you doing this, you will end up on the wrong end of the outcome. Watch successful players and what they do, its invaluable to watch. Until the point where you understand the philosophy and truly believe in it, i would always suggest playing ABC poker. This is mainly due to psychological reasons. Poker needs a positive mindset and one can easily be affected by a few bad decisions. If you go through some bad times in poker, its important to draw something positive from them. Regularly crashing out as you are not quite doing it as the better players are, is something that will take its toll. Scraping into 27th place to get your buyin back is often a better feeling that trying to change gears and failing.

[ACE2M]

imo you haven't got the chips to change gears here. Your play here should be dictated by your stack, and raising into any pot here could well be your last. I would limp 44 or push with it. I don't like his play much but having limped his hand i would call the raise to, i would have re raised you on the flop.

with your stack i would just be looking for opportunities to get it all in pre flop if others have entered the pot and only looking to steal in late position in unopened pots.

[IveGotOuts]

I don't like the raise pre-flop, if you raise with small pair then you really want everyone to pass. Tench isn't going anywhere to that raise and unless you hit a set you'll never know where you are on the flop withour risking a lot of chips.

In this situation it is better to either just call and try to flop a set or just pass. Save raising with these kind of hands for when no-one has entered the pot.

Good post regarding raise only when you are opening the pot. Never just call though here IMO.

Betting the ace is bad idea none the less though? My idea was that that was the 'scare card' I needed to continue the bluff... (and I thought AK was unlikely)

I see your thinking but this guy has a lot of chips to spare and the pot is pretty big by the time you go all in, so its less likely youre going to be able to push him off his king.

imo you haven't got the chips to change gears here. Your play here should be dictated by your stack, and raising into any pot here could well be your last. I would limp 44 or push with it. I don't like his play much but having limped his hand i would call the raise to, i would have re raised you on the flop.

with your stack i would just be looking for opportunities to get it all in pre flop if others have entered the pot and only looking to steal in late position in unopened pots.

Limping with the 44 here is bad advice. Blinds are too high, its either a raise or fold.

[ACE2M]

Limping with the 44 here is bad advice. Blinds are too high, its either a raise or fold.

i disagree, its 1/15 of his stack. he misses and he can fold easy and still be in the tournament.

[Royal Flush]

I love the pre flop raise, build a pot with position. You need chips this is a great way to get some. The flop is a very good flop, he is only calling you with a king, so i also bet about 2-2.5k. However now he has called, give up, he is deep enough that he isnt passing the turn.

When it works though you picked up 4.5 bb's, thats the same as raising and winning 3 hands in a row! This way is much easier!

[Rookie (Rodney)]

   nice post flushy

[ACE2M]

I love the pre flop raise, build a pot with position. You need chips this is a great way to get some. The flop is a very good flop, he is only calling you with a king, so i also bet about 2-2.5k. However now he has called, give up, he is deep enough that he isnt passing the turn.

When it works though you picked up 4.5 bb's, thats the same as raising and winning 3 hands in a row! This way is much easier!

I appreciate everything you say flushy and i know i am a pretty tight player but do you think his stack is big enough to play this type of game?
Especially against an utg limper who can stack him?

I don't dispute yours or ivegotouts advice here has merit but you all advocate such an aggresive stance all the time which i am not convinced is the right play in all situations.

[Royal Flush]

I love the pre flop raise, build a pot with position. You need chips this is a great way to get some. The flop is a very good flop, he is only calling you with a king, so i also bet about 2-2.5k. However now he has called, give up, he is deep enough that he isnt passing the turn.

When it works though you picked up 4.5 bb's, thats the same as raising and winning 3 hands in a row! This way is much easier!

I appreciate everything you say flushy and i know i am a pretty tight player but do you think his stack is big enough to play this type of game?

My prefrence is to do this on a stack like his as its the greatest % reward. If i have a large stack i dont do this as much as people assume you are always at it, and also the gain in terms of % of your stack is not that great.

Of course it can easily go wrong and i would have lost about 4k here. I would just have to revert to pushbot mode!

Your right though, the aggresive path isnt always the 1 to take.

[boldie]

I'd agree with flush here...he called after the flop. therefore just check it out (he can't bet it once the Ace comes out...he could but not really anyways) and just take what you get.


Also about the "changing gear"...why change gear when  you are only 5 away from the bubble?...40 get paid...so when you're in 40th...you got paid and then you make the play for 1st.

It's all about the money...no point in playing marginal hands untill you've made the money. (IMO)

[SupaMonkey]

It's all about the money...no point in playing marginal hands untill you've made the money. (IMO)

Can you consider this as playing a marginal hand though? You could have made this move with trash because it is hard for people to call your raise (especially near the bubble) and if they do, you know you are in a pretty bad situation and it is easy to let the pot go. Obviously once you are called on the flop you give the pot up.

My point is that you could have pulled flushy's move with any two cards, so surely the cards don't matter.

[boldie]

fair point...indeed the cards don't really matter..it could have been 8 3 off suit.