call or fold?

[Claw75]

Single-Table Tournament
Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
$5 - NL - 9 Seat - Extended 10243272-21 Holdem No Limit 30/60
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : Hand Start.
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : Seat 1 : straycatz has $3,150
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : Seat 2 : jrwinfish has $2,560
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : Seat 3 : Chazzer1 has $4,180
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : Seat 4 : Claw75 has $1,740
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : Seat 6 : nicking has $1,900
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : Seat 8 : Kev-Colch has $3,050
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : Seat 9 : melearp has $1,420
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : jrwinfish is the dealer.
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : Chazzer1 posted small blind.
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : Claw75 posted big blind.
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : Game [21] started with 7 players.
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jul 5 23:22:52] : Seat 4 : Claw75 has
[Jul 5 23:22:55] : nicking called 60
[Jul 5 23:22:59] : Kev-Colch called 60
[Jul 5 23:22:59] : melearp called 60
[Jul 5 23:22:59] : straycatz folded.
[Jul 5 23:23:01] : jrwinfish called 60
[Jul 5 23:23:01] : Chazzer1 called 30
[Jul 5 23:23:06] : Claw75 raised 120
[Jul 5 23:23:11] : nicking called 120
[Jul 5 23:23:11] : Stakes: 30/60 Current level: 2 Next level in: 7 min. 
[Jul 5 23:23:14] : Kev-Colch folded.
[Jul 5 23:23:17] : melearp called 120
[Jul 5 23:23:18] : jrwinfish called 120
[Jul 5 23:23:19] : Chazzer1 folded.
[Jul 5 23:23:19] : Dealing flop.
[Jul 5 23:23:19] : Board cards [ As ]
[Jul 5 23:23:27] : Claw75 bet 480
[Jul 5 23:23:31] : Stakes: 30/60 Current level: 2 Next level in: 7 min. 
[Jul 5 23:23:34] : nicking called 480 and raised 960

[Graham C]

For me, fold.  I don't think you are getting the odds to call for the straight plus a reraise like that is saying he has something.

Mind you, he could be trying it on as he has similar chips to you but it's a brave move considering your preflop raise then a decent bet after the flop.

What did you do? 

[Claw75]

What did you do? 

I'll tell you later

[Graham C]

mmm teasing

I'd put him on two pairs.  He's called the preflop raise so he has something not too shabby, then the reraise is pretty strong.

Going for Aces and Queens.

Probably miles out

[Claw75]

mmm teasing

I'd put him on two pairs.  He's called the preflop raise so he has something not too shabby, then the reraise is pretty strong.

Going for Aces and Queens.

Probably miles out

do you not think he would have raised pre flop with AQ?

[Graham C]

Probably not, not unsuited anyway.   For me in the early stages of a tourney, it's a nice hand but not a mega hand, I'd probably just call early on.

[Rookie (Rodney)]

K J ?

[Claw75]

I don't actually know what he had because I folded and he didn't show.

[Royal Flush]

Horrible pre flop raise, even worse pass!!!

5 players have limped infront of you, you are OOP with an average hand. You raise 120, thats never getting people to pass (although kev did, which is another matter!) as 120 more is great value.

So you are now in a big pot OOP with a hand you need to flop. Luckily you do hit the flop, not only that but you have a gutshot draw aswell, you make a bet and then pass when you are raised all in! What did you raise AJ with and bet 500 for if you are going to pass to resistance?!?!

[Lee]

Claw, with every move you make in poker, try and have a reason for it.

As JD says you are OOP in a multipot and raise so everyman and his dog has value to play the pot with you. If you are raising to thin the field out or take the blinds, then you must raise much higher, 3rd and 4th to call in this pot have odds to call you with 72off. AJ is a poor hand, more often than not, it will only get action off a hand that is beating it.

Once you've hit the flop and raised so strongly and got re-raised, i'm surprised to see you folded. It is pointless to lead out with such strength and then fold to resistance, you'd be better off checking and letting someone else dictate the action (especially with you OOP) and then decide. If you are raising from the BB with AJ, i'm presuming you think you have the best hand, you've hit as good a flop as you can hope for really. If you are shooting for AAJ, KQT or AJ7 flop, then don't raise. Your raise will never scare anyone off and it's telling people that you have a semblance of a hand at least. The amount you raised versus being able to check and hide what is a decent hand going into a 5 way pot undisclosed, is just not worth it.

In this hand you have a very good and strong sign that if you raise this little, you will play a 5-way pot. The guy/girl who folded must have been a miss-click i presume as if he/she calls the blind to play the pot before it is raised, then your raise should certainly not change anything (if its a good enough hand to play in a multipot parting with 60 chips, then its guaranteed to be ok in a 5 way pot for 2 more BB's). The strong sign that you will play it 5-way is the UTG limper. If he/she will call from UTG, then they are pretty much 99% sure to call your small raise too. Once UTG calls your raise, then everyone else has value to call and hope for a nice flop. 33 on an A37 flop for example.

It's not so easy to throw a blanket over it, but in general, if you are going to bet the pot OOP and then fold to a re-raise, i'd suggest not raising at all.

Imagine the same hand, where you raise it up to 300 preflop, KJ, Ax, 89 etc. will normally fold and AQ or AK or high PP's should reraise you (easy fold with AJ). If you get re-raised, then you can fold having only parted with 300 chips and (for me) i prefer this as i'm not left in the no-mans land that you are after you've hit the flop. AJ is a pain, looks so good and late on in a torny, it can make your eyes light up a little, but if you are going to play it, IMO you must find out asap if someone has a better Ace or you find yourself in spots parting with chips that you don't need to.

Teaching yourself to watch the table instead of surfing on blonde, watching eastenders and talking on msn will benefit us all. When UTG limps, make a note of it in your head and when the action comes round to you, judge your best move, taking into consideration the moves before you. I guarantee you by watching your table you will pick up things, you never knew you could.

If i wanted to raise AJ from your position (which i'd check most of the time), my betting would be the complete opposite to yours. I'd show strength preflop and weakness after. I have been caught too many times playing hands like this too weak pre-flop, only to find myself parting with far more chips on the flop, than i was worried about betting pre-flop.

Thats how i play it anyway, hope this either helps or confirms your chain of thought.

[Graham C]

Lees Post

  I've read a few of your replies Lee and they are always excellent and very helpful.  I've hopefully learnt a few things from some of the stuff you've said and look forward to seeing some more replies in the future.

[Claw75]

Claw, with every move you make in poker, try and have a reason for it.

As JD says you are OOP in a multipot and raise so everyman and his dog has value to play the pot with you. If you are raising to thin the field out or take the blinds, then you must raise much higher, 3rd and 4th to call in this pot have odds to call you with 72off. AJ is a poor hand, more often than not, it will only get action off a hand that is beating it.

Once you've hit the flop and raised so strongly and got re-raised, i'm surprised to see you folded. It is pointless to lead out with such strength and then fold to resistance, you'd be better off checking and letting someone else dictate the action (especially with you OOP) and then decide. If you are raising from the BB with AJ, i'm presuming you think you have the best hand, you've hit as good a flop as you can hope for really. If you are shooting for AAJ, KQT or AJ7 flop, then don't raise. Your raise will never scare anyone off and it's telling people that you have a semblance of a hand at least. The amount you raised versus being able to check and hide what is a decent hand going into a 5 way pot undisclosed, is just not worth it.

In this hand you have a very good and strong sign that if you raise this little, you will play a 5-way pot. The guy/girl who folded must have been a miss-click i presume as if he/she calls the blind to play the pot before it is raised, then your raise should certainly not change anything (if its a good enough hand to play in a multipot parting with 60 chips, then its guaranteed to be ok in a 5 way pot for 2 more BB's). The strong sign that you will play it 5-way is the UTG limper. If he/she will call from UTG, then they are pretty much 99% sure to call your small raise too. Once UTG calls your raise, then everyone else has value to call and hope for a nice flop. 33 on an A37 flop for example.

It's not so easy to throw a blanket over it, but in general, if you are going to bet the pot OOP and then fold to a re-raise, i'd suggest not raising at all.

Imagine the same hand, where you raise it up to 300 preflop, KJ, Ax, 89 etc. will normally fold and AQ or AK or high PP's should reraise you (easy fold with AJ). If you get re-raised, then you can fold having only parted with 300 chips and (for me) i prefer this as i'm not left in the no-mans land that you are after you've hit the flop. AJ is a pain, looks so good and late on in a torny, it can make your eyes light up a little, but if you are going to play it, IMO you must find out asap if someone has a better Ace or you find yourself in spots parting with chips that you don't need to.

Teaching yourself to watch the table instead of surfing on blonde, watching eastenders and talking on msn will benefit us all. When UTG limps, make a note of it in your head and when the action comes round to you, judge your best move, taking into consideration the moves before you. I guarantee you by watching your table you will pick up things, you never knew you could.

If i wanted to raise AJ from your position (which i'd check most of the time), my betting would be the complete opposite to yours. I'd show strength preflop and weakness after. I have been caught too many times playing hands like this too weak pre-flop, only to find myself parting with far more chips on the flop, than i was worried about betting pre-flop.

Thats how i play it anyway, hope this either helps or confirms your chain of thought.

Wow  Lee.  I never expected to get such a detailed or helpful response - thanks for taking the time and trouble.  I'm going to copy that to read over again and digest.  I love this board.

Thanks for your reply too Flushy.  I know that weak raising pre-flop is one of my, ahem, weaknesses.

I have yet to read a poker strategy book, as I wanted to find my own game first, then try to improve on it.  I think I've reached as far as I'm going to get now (though this board is extremely helpful) and it's time to step up a gear.  Can anyone recommend any good reading for NLHE sng/mtt play, where topics such as position and optimum bet/raise amounts are covered?

thanks again.
 
 

[mikkyT]

Harringtons on Hold-em... nothing comes close. IMO!

[Jon MW]

Got to be Harrington on Holdem.

One of the best poker strategy books around and as it's geared towards tournament play it seems tailor made for what you're looking for.

[Claw75]

thanks guys - I'll get on to Amazon now!