Advice on Situation Please

[Ginger]

There's a little previous to this, but I want to know if it was just bad timing or plain stupid.

This is for a seat in the Stars  WSOP 150 Seat Guaranteed ($350 + $20)

knuckles61 came to the table when I was table leader by a nice margin (he had very large stack though around 23k ish) I was around 18k sitting inside the top 10 and above average. I had a few hands when it was either his BB and Button, and for example he called my x4 and x2 raises (no problem, I really had hands) Unfortunatly even when I would hit the flop (AJ on a A95  rainbow board) and bet strongly out he would still call to the river with his T5 soooooooted, and river the T. He did the same with AK v J8o (rivered a J) At the time it felt like he was trap checking a big hand (possibly a set?), hence the no all-ins.

This happened 3 times to myself, and he was hitting with everyone more than missing (Wayne_Izard  had just managed a nice trebled up, thanks to him not laying down bottom pair), so when for the 3rd time I take him on, I said to myself if I hit either of my cards I have no choice but to move in. Unlucky? bad timing or what?

Had he taken enough of my chips previously that he can justify the call? (preflop) or was he just being a lucky fecker and riding it?
 
Table '27639395 3' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: gernn (5812 in chips)
Seat 3: meggsy (10985 in chips)
Seat 4: Wayne_Izard (16788 in chips)
Seat 5: knuckles61 (35875 in chips)
Seat 6: Ginger_MMM (8107 in chips)
Seat 7: lucia2004 (9078 in chips)
Seat 8: munchkin_man (5675 in chips)
Seat 9: londonbred (7155 in chips)
gernn: posts the ante 50
meggsy: posts the ante 50
Wayne_Izard: posts the ante 50
knuckles61: posts the ante 50
Ginger_MMM: posts the ante 50
lucia2004: posts the ante 50
munchkin_man: posts the ante 50
londonbred: posts the ante 50
knuckles61: posts small blind 300
Ginger_MMM: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ginger_MMM [ Ah]
lucia2004: folds
munchkin_man: folds
londonbred: folds
gernn: folds
meggsy: folds
Wayne_Izard: folds
knuckles61: calls 300
Ginger_MMM: raises 1800 to 2400
knuckles61: calls 1800
*** FLOP *** [ ]
knuckles61: checks
Ginger_MMM: bets 5657 and is all-in
knuckles61: calls 5657
*** TURN *** [ ] []
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
knuckles61: shows [ ] (a pair of Kings)
Ginger_MMM: shows [ Ah] (a pair of Queens)
knuckles61 collected 16514 from pot
Total pot 16514 | Rake 0
Board [ ]
Seat 5: knuckles61 (small blind) showed [ ] and won (16514) with a pair of Kings


How do I deal with someone like that?

[bhoywonder]

ul J


its hard to deal wi someone like that

you took a stand..and thats about all you can do with this type..we all know he shouldda folded but do these types ever fold??

v ul

[turny]

very unlucky ginger

dont those players really wind u up. calling stations that always seem to hit!

maybe your all in with 2nd pair was brought on by your frustration of this guy keep hitting.that was your only mistake but i can understand your thinking.

as they say in the long run these type of players will pay you off no consolation when u just bombed out of a chance to win a wsop seat.

[marcro]

With a lot of patience!

[Lee]

When a player who has lost his fold button starts having the flop smack him in the face, then carnage is always around the corner.

Only thing that i could say is to do what you did, when you face these players. Choose your hands wisely and when you do play, either play very passively or very aggressively. Anything in between and in my experience you will just bleed off chips and find yourself making frustrated plays rather than well thought out ones.

On that flop i can't see anything other than the said result happening. You could look at the hand in many ways. You raise 3xBB against the chip leading nutter, if your hand is so good, his thinking could be "why on earth a 3xBB raise, obviously doesn't want me in the pot". He can call and then force you have to make a decision for your torny on the flop. As it happens, he hits the flop and checked, hoping you would bet and be committed to the pot, which you did.

His only concern could be AK on that flop, however i don't think he can put you on this as your moves (IMO) don't illustrate AK. If you have AK then i would expect a smaller raise pre-flop (or an all-in) and a milking bet on the flop. In other words  a raise to 1.6k pre-flop and then a 2.5k bet on flop etc.

Given the same situation against this type of player, i think i would move all in pre-flop. Main thinking because he's a nutter, i'm pretty sure that he will call any raise i do and with these blinds, i am gonna be pot committed anyway on the flop if the flop comes anything half decent for me. If he wants to play lots of pots with filth, then he will be forced to pay the maximum before he sees anything of the flop.

If he had raised all in on the flop, what would you have done?

With AQ i would always call him (given his past record), it is only when he checks that i could be in danger (IMO).

[IveGotOuts]

any more pics ginger? 

[Ginger]

Thanks for the replies guys,

I think the problem was that I had in fact run out of patience, seeing him do the same thing again and again was extremely frustrating, and probably led to me not playing the AQ as well as it could have been.

I'm not a fan of all-ins pre-flop here, I find it very had to shove all my chips in the middle with what is essentially at best a drawing hand (especially against a maniac) when my stack isn't in dire shape against the majority of the table. But, as Lee pointed out you have"either play very passively or very aggressively" passive was shown not to work against him, so I think the all-in pre would have made him make a bigger decision, most of the time he surely would fold.

But, do I really WANT him to fold pre flop? with the hands he was calling with I can't put him on anything, and against any random cards I'm happy to push the rest of them in on that flop (then quickly turn the monitor off hoping for the best outcome lol)

Anyway, his check to me actually gave me no info/warning at all, as he had check called all his previous hands whether he hit big/small or missed. Just about any other player I would have played it far more cautiously but TBH I didn't want to give him another cheap card. If he had moved in instead of checking, I think it would have had to be an insta call (oddly as it may sound) as he had never moved in before, IMO it would of looked like a total bluff to steal the pot then and there. (that logic sounds soooo wrong, but I hope you get the idea)

I think this is just one of those situations that if you are lucky enough to catch big against him at the right time (and enough times) you ARE going to get his stack eventually, just not my turn I guess



Oh, IveGotOuts....  Ummmm no, no more piccies lol

[Lee]

Thanks for the replies guys,

I think the problem was that I had in fact run out of patience, seeing him do the same thing again and again was extremely frustrating, and probably led to me not playing the AQ as well as it could have been.

Why do you think you played it incorrect? What would you do different in the same situation?

This is one of the greatest benefits of playing like a nutter, you get people to change the way they play and loosen up and make frustrated plays rather than well executed ones. We have all been in this situation and got sucked in.

I'm not a fan of all-ins pre-flop here, I find it very had to shove all my chips in the middle with what is essentially at best a drawing hand (especially against a maniac) when my stack isn't in dire shape against the majority of the table. But, as Lee pointed out you have"either play very passively or very aggressively" passive was shown not to work against him, so I think the all-in pre would have made him make a bigger decision, most of the time he surely would fold.

But, do I really WANT him to fold pre flop? with the hands he was calling with I can't put him on anything, and against any random cards I'm happy to push the rest of them in on that flop (then quickly turn the monitor off hoping for the best outcome lol)

I also prefer playing the hand rather than an all-in, but at times the situation and the players you are on table with, dictate that your style has to change, otherwise you could be left high and dry. I think the main point here is to know why you are raising 3xBB, if you are after the blinds, then an all-in is harder to call, and if you are called you might be in decent shape with a 50/50 anyway. By raising 3xBB, are you going to pass to a re-raise?, i'd say it would be pretty impossible to as it would leave yourself in a short stack situation in a satellite comp where only the top 1 or 2 spots usually get anything.

Stats tell us that you will hit 1 in 3 flops, this is the same for him obviously. So if we play out the hand as you played it, we get:

Scenario 1

He calls 1800 chips, if he hits flop, he gets your stack. 1800 call wins 16k pot. POSSIBLE STACK SIZE AFTER HAND = +8k

Scenario 2

He calls 1800 chips, if he misses flop completely, he folds to your probable all-in. 1800 call wins 0. POSSIBLE STACK SIZE AFTER HAND = -1.8k

Scenario 3

He calls 1800 chips, if he flops a draw, he gets your stack in the middle in a likely 50/50. 50% of the time, his 1800 call wins 16k pot. POSSIBLE STACK SIZE AFTER HAND = +4k (4k as its a 50/50 to gain 8k, so halved etc.)


There are other scenarios, these would be the main ones for me though.  He can of course raise all in on the flop if he thinks you've missed and maybe get you to fold, he could also call and be dominated, but i will use these 3 scenarios to keep it easier to read, as most of the other scenarios can be cancelled out by another.

Now the maths of this can probably be torn apart here, (feel free if you can, i'd be interested to see it), however his expected stack sizes after the scenarios are: +8k, -1.8k & +4k. This as a total is +10.2k, divide this by 3 (3 scenarios) and you get +3.4k on average.

Therefore, parting with 1800 chips each and every time in this scenario, will net a stack increase of 1.6k:

3.4k (average stack improvement) - 1.8k (cost to play hand) = 1.6k

[Royal Flush]

Thanks for the replies guys,

I think the problem was that I had in fact run out of patience, seeing him do the same thing again and again was extremely frustrating, and probably led to me not playing the AQ as well as it could have been.

Why do you think you played it incorrect? What would you do different in the same situation?

This is one of the greatest benefits of playing like a nutter, you get people to change the way they play and loosen up and make frustrated plays rather than well executed ones. We have all been in this situation and got sucked in.

I'm not a fan of all-ins pre-flop here, I find it very had to shove all my chips in the middle with what is essentially at best a drawing hand (especially against a maniac) when my stack isn't in dire shape against the majority of the table. But, as Lee pointed out you have"either play very passively or very aggressively" passive was shown not to work against him, so I think the all-in pre would have made him make a bigger decision, most of the time he surely would fold.

But, do I really WANT him to fold pre flop? with the hands he was calling with I can't put him on anything, and against any random cards I'm happy to push the rest of them in on that flop (then quickly turn the monitor off hoping for the best outcome lol)

I also prefer playing the hand rather than an all-in, but at times the situation and the players you are on table with, dictate that your style has to change, otherwise you could be left high and dry. I think the main point here is to know why you are raising 3xBB, if you are after the blinds, then an all-in is harder to call, and if you are called you might be in decent shape with a 50/50 anyway. By raising 3xBB, are you going to pass to a re-raise?, i'd say it would be pretty impossible to as it would leave yourself in a short stack situation in a satellite comp where only the top 1 or 2 spots usually get anything.

Stats tell us that you will hit 1 in 3 flops, this is the same for him obviously. So if we play out the hand as you played it, we get:

Scenario 1

He calls 1800 chips, if he hits flop, he gets your stack. 1800 call wins 16k pot. POSSIBLE STACK SIZE AFTER HAND = +8k

Scenario 2

He calls 1800 chips, if he misses flop completely, he folds to your probable all-in. 1800 call wins 0. POSSIBLE STACK SIZE AFTER HAND = -1.8k

Scenario 3

He calls 1800 chips, if he flops a draw, he gets your stack in the middle in a likely 50/50. 50% of the time, his 1800 call wins 16k pot. POSSIBLE STACK SIZE AFTER HAND = +4k (4k as its a 50/50 to gain 8k, so halved etc.)


There are other scenarios, these would be the main ones for me though.  He can of course raise all in on the flop if he thinks you've missed and maybe get you to fold, he could also call and be dominated, but i will use these 3 scenarios to keep it easier to read, as most of the other scenarios can be cancelled out by another.

Now the maths of this can probably be torn apart here, (feel free if you can, i'd be interested to see it), however his expected stack sizes after the scenarios are: +8k, -1.8k & +4k. This as a total is 10.2k, divide this by 3 (3 scenarios) and you get +3.4k on average.

Therefore, parting with 1800 chips each and every time in this scenario, will net a stack increase of 1.6k:

3.4k (average stack improvement) - 1.8k (cost to play hand) = 1.6k

Reverse implied odds?

[Lee]

never understood what that means, would be good to find out

[Royal Flush]

never understood what that means, would be good to find out

You hit your hand but its no good and you end up paying off the other player.

The flop comes KQQ and he thinks he is good and doubles Jane up.

Or in this mugs case he hits his 5 on a QJ5 flop and gets it in

[Lee]

never understood what that means, would be good to find out

You hit your hand but its no good and you end up paying off the other player.

The flop comes KQQ and he thinks he is good and doubles Jane up.

Or in this mugs case he hits his 5 on a QJ5 flop and gets it in

Gotcha. Don't get how it comes into this hand though, we're pretty sure Jane is ahead pre-flop, so what reverse implied odds does she have?, she's already in front and at worst will normally be 60/40 in her favour.

I reckon other scenarios cancel this out too, if Jane misses flop and he pushes, he might get the fold.

[Ginger]

never understood what that means, would be good to find out

You hit your hand but its no good and you end up paying off the other player.

The flop comes KQQ and he thinks he is good and doubles Jane up.

Or in this mugs case he hits his 5 on a QJ5 flop and gets it in

Gotcha. Don't get how it comes into this hand though, we're pretty sure Jane is ahead pre-flop, so what reverse implied odds does she have?, she's already in front and at worst will normally be 60/40 in her favour.

I reckon other scenarios cancel this out too, if Jane misses flop and he pushes, he might get the fold.

I  had to ask for an explanation also lol...

The 3x raise wasn't just to get the blinds, as I was already the BB anyway.  This guy calls with anything and if I miss the flop totally there would have been a good chance I would have folded to a large bet from him. Yes, it would leave me SS but I'm an expert at coming that it would seem. There was always the small hope that I would take it there (but I don't now believe he would of folded tbh).

So I guess really the only two options should have been all-in pre (I pick up the blinds and antes,  in most cases he folds with possible less risk?) or checking the AQ and seeing what the flop brings. TBH I don't like the play either way.


Lee, you ask what I would do differently in the same situation... If not against a nutter, I still raise but wouldn't necessarily push post flop if called, stick out some sort of bet sure, but any betting without taking the hand down is going to leave me in very bad shape.

I'll sleep on it and have another look in the morning, far too tired right now.

[Royal Flush]

never understood what that means, would be good to find out

You hit your hand but its no good and you end up paying off the other player.

The flop comes KQQ and he thinks he is good and doubles Jane up.

Or in this mugs case he hits his 5 on a QJ5 flop and gets it in

Gotcha. Don't get how it comes into this hand though, we're pretty sure Jane is ahead pre-flop, so what reverse implied odds does she have?, she's already in front and at worst will normally be 60/40 in her favour.

I reckon other scenarios cancel this out too, if Jane misses flop and he pushes, he might get the fold.

She didnt, he did, i was refering to your post about the EV of his actions.

[Lee]

The 3x raise wasn't just to get the blinds, as I was already the BB anyway.

Once he calls, both blinds are up for grabs, whether you've paid for them or not.

This guy calls with anything and if I miss the flop totally there would have been a good chance I would have folded to a large bet from him. Yes, it would leave me SS but I'm an expert at coming that it would seem. There was always the small hope that I would take it there (but I don't now believe he would of folded tbh).

If you will fold here to a big bet if you miss, then IMO you are better to call and hide your hand and play a smaller pot on the flop. If he bets, then you can get to the turn having parted with less than what you raised in the first place. In other words, if he calls and you check, the pot is 1200 on flop. If he bets pot, you are only parting with 1200 chips rather than 1800 and he still has no idea what you are holding. He may bet or push on the turn, at which stage you will double up if you have him beat or fold and still have a playable stack.

So I guess really the only two options should have been all-in pre (I pick up the blinds and antes,  in most cases he folds with possible less risk?) or checking the AQ and seeing what the flop brings. TBH I don't like the play either way.

We differ here i think, i am happy in either of the above scenarios. With AQ here i want to play a very cheap flop and hide my hand OR i want to take the blinds. I am not interested in playing AQ against a nutter in a hand where i am stuck in between these scenarios. AQ (in my experience) is not a very profitable hand as it is usually only getting action off a hand that is ahead of it.

Lee, you ask what I would do differently in the same situation... If not against a nutter, I still raise but wouldn't necessarily push post flop if called, stick out some sort of bet sure, but any betting without taking the hand down is going to leave me in very bad shape.

I'll sleep on it and have another look in the morning, far too tired right now.
[/color]

If you raise pre-flop, then on the flop you are either all-in or folding, i don't see any middle ground, you are not in the position (stack size) to be feeling where you are. If someone calls a feeler bet on this flop, then they will more than likely call an all-in anyway. If they have nothing they will fold. So you are basically going to get a call for all of your stack or you are not going to get called, so stick them in and find out.