Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT)

[dik9]

OK here goes, my first thought was if it's good for Tikay it's good for me.

It has now been 12 hours to digest all the information and have thought of nothing else (sad aint I) As stated in one of my earlier posts, I am extremely interested in this as I too was trying to organize a non-profit making poker association for players, clubs and GC, but not getting very far. Tikay was aware of this a long while back, when the uniform rules cropped up again.

Now this is my own opinion and no-one elses and I just hope I don't fall out with blonde on this issue as I love it!!

The foundation and the principle of an association for a number of reasons is paramount and Tikays (possibly Mels and Richards (I don't know)) interest is 100% genuine and done for the right reasons. I can even understand the members fee (but not the juice on it all be it 75 pence) It is not the juice that is the problem, it is the implication it will have across the board from casino to casino. Making the members fee £11 and £6.75 juice would be fine. Therefore giving you £7.75 instead of £7.50 LOL, this would then be within the current boundaries of the GC.

My problem arises with a few things.

Sponsorship is bad for an impartial association

All players including Pro's should have a voice

A limited capacity comp for members is a bad idea, and will upset some members on a few things.

Charging Juice at a venue that NEVER charges juice (and I am still unsure who will recieve the juice) This worries me 2 ways:

If it is for the Casino, then the players have not benefited at all and will now risk having to pay reg fees in a place that swore never to charge them.

If it is for APAT or Amateur Leisure ltd (or whatever it is called) then a whole new twist in my book has arisen. This is worse than opening an illegal cardclub as some business man has engeniously come up with a plan to earn money from a venue that already supplies a licensed premises, house dealers, a database of players that will now want to play in their local, but will get charged a tenner for it. WITHOUT ANY RISK TO HIMSELF!!
If it is for the latter, does that mean that places that already charge a reg fee will charge a double reg fee or will the casino have to forfeit their charge. Or will this be limited to places that don't at present charge a reg fee?

There is an arguement to say the reg fee will go back in added prizes, but wont that come from the sponsors, as every prospective member will know that getting these new amateur poker players to sign up to pokerstars to get cheaper membership or other benefits. What a coup!!

Once again I feel that those who love the game, get used to make other people rich.

I may have missed the mark completely in which case I am truly truly sorry and will take back everything I have said. But I cannot help thinking that some clever dick has come up with a new way of extracting money from poker!!

Rant over Sorry

[Sark79]

It will be good I am sure.  Hopefully this can act as a foundation for players to reach the big time.  It is a great idea, in almost all other sports there are staircases of talent that provide a platform for the talent to rise to the top. Why not in poker as well.  The APAT will be that staircase.  I would love to play in it at some time in the future.  Very best of luck to all those involved   

[Bongo]

Give me a UK venue that can hold several hundred please!

This assembled brain is struggling with that!

To quote the bit I left out of that message:

I don't envy you! 

[totalise]

Tightend,

this is what I intend to do when I set up the Unknown Poker Professionals Tour:

For the remaining Poker Championships,  you will hold regional qualifiers with delegates at each venue to enforce the APAT/UPPT ethos. Each venue will hold 100 or so players, and there will be as many venues as is needed to fit all the players in.

At each venue, the players will play down to whatever the capacity of the casino where the final is held, divided by the number of qualifiers.. so 10 qualifiers, host casino can hold 150.. each tournament plays down to 15 people

The chip counts are bagged and tagged, and then they all convene at the main casino at a later date to play it down to a finish in a 2 day affair.. with the blind structure following on from the qualifiers (aggregating the blind level of each qualifier to ensure a fair blind restart)

Normally I wouldn't divulge such sensitive information, but as our respective tours are non overlapping, I feel its ok to share the genius ideas

[TightEnd]

My problem arises with a few things.

Sponsorship is bad for an impartial association

All players including Pro's should have a voice

A limited capacity comp for members is a bad idea, and will upset some members on a few things.

Charging Juice at a venue that NEVER charges juice (and I am still unsure who will recieve the juice) This worries me 2 ways:

1.The Association is sponsored by PokerPlayer . This gives it in exchange for that sponsorship coverage very month for the next year, raises the profile of the Assocaition and brings forward the day that it will be listened to. This in no way introduces any absence of neutrality to the association

The tour is sponsored by PokerStars, who add value to the comps


2. Amateur players have no collective voice worldwide, some Pro organisations have been formed in the US. APAT is a start to give this broad and amorphous group of players a collective voice AND their interests are likely to be very different from that of the Pros.

3.How do we come up with an unlimited capacity event?

4. The Broadway does not charge juice. The juice will be going to APL (120 x £6.75 lets say) on this occasion only and will pay for, for example, name badges, lunch for all finalists with tikay etc, welcome packs, trophies/mementoes...just some examples off the top of my head

For Event 2 onwards APL will receive none of the juice because almost every other venue takes the juice, so it is unreasonable to say that APL will be benefitting from lets say £800-1000 every event Gross profit.

This is seperate income from membership fees, which goes towards the costs and running of an effective players association


In no way shape or form is this an attempt by ANY of us to take advantage of any player or member.

[TightEnd]

Tightend,

this is what I intend to do when I set up the Unknown Poker Professionals Tour:

For the remaining Poker Championships,  you will hold regional qualifiers with delegates at each venue to enforce the APAT/UPPT ethos. Each venue will hold 100 or so players, and there will be as many venues as is needed to fit all the players in.

At each venue, the players will play down to whatever the capacity of the casino where the final is held, divided by the number of qualifiers.. so 10 qualifiers, host casino can hold 150.. each tournament plays down to 15 people

The chip counts are bagged and tagged, and then they all convene at the main casino at a later date to play it down to a finish in a 2 day affair.. with the blind structure following on from the qualifiers (aggregating the blind level of each qualifier to ensure a fair blind restart)

Normally I wouldn't divulge such sensitive information, but as our respective tours are non overlapping, I feel its ok to share the genius ideas

  brilliant stuff

do you need a media director?

[totalise]

I have recruited BoltPP as Media Relations, his discretion and conforming manner are essential to smoothing over the rough passages in that department

For Customer Liasons Officer I recruited puzzler from the WSOP thread.. his diplomacy and tacit nature can only add to the overall experience of the UPPT

I will handle all the monetary affairs, so if anyone sees t0tall3d playing 200/400 NL, you know your monies are in safe hands!

best wishes

Jay

Director of Operations

UPPT Ltd

[TightEnd]

I have recruited BoltPP as Media Relations, his discretion and conforming manner are essential to smoothing over the rough passages in that department

For Customer Liasons Officer I recruited puzzler from the WSOP thread.. his diplomacy and tacit nature can only add to the overall experience of the UPPT

I will handle all the monetary affairs, so if anyone sees t0tall3d playing 200/400 NL, you know your monies are in safe hands!

best wishes

Jay

Director of Operations

UPPT Ltd

thank you, I wish you all the best in your new venture

I do think you are discriminating against known professionals though, but now is not the time to quibble. Who decides who is known and who is unknown? We all now know you through your PHA threads so you are not unknown.

Its a difficult one

[tikay]

Tikay,

no worries

Do you see where the profit questions were coming from? The general assumption is that if an organisation is set-up with the intention of being a players organisation, its not going to be one that is designed to make a profit (ala the World Poker Organisation) for the organisers

When it came to light that it WILL be generating a profit for the organisers, thats where the whole questions I believe stemmed from......it was in no way to intimate there was a usurious side to the whole scheme (or at least, I am 99% confident of that)

The company makes money, most people (!!!) get something out of it, now everything is out in the open its easy to see what a great venture it is for all concerned. A win-win

I pretty much said all I can think of, and I managed to bump up my post count some, so its a success on all counts

"Now do I see where the profit questions are coming from?". Well, no, not really! As I asked earlier, (nobody replied), what's the problem with profit, if we get what we want?

"when it came to light" & "now everything is out in the open"......Again, you've whooshed me, I'm afraid. At what stage did we hide it? The very first Post had "Director/Managing Director, Amateur Poker Ltd" on it! More to the point - & this would always be my way of thinking through these, to me, insoluble conundrums - WHY would we (attempt to) hide it? Because we could keep it a secret for ever? I think not.....

Anyway, it looks like we have reached the same view - "it's win-win" - albeit we got there by very different routes.

It's been emotional, as that young handsome guy on 425 says.

[dik9]

My problem arises with a few things.

Sponsorship is bad for an impartial association

All players including Pro's should have a voice

A limited capacity comp for members is a bad idea, and will upset some members on a few things.

Charging Juice at a venue that NEVER charges juice (and I am still unsure who will recieve the juice) This worries me 2 ways:

1.The Association is sponsored by PokerPlayer . This gives it in exchange for that sponsorship coverage very month for the next year, raises the profile of the Assocaition and brings forward the day that it will be listened to. This in no way introduces any absence of neutrality to the association

The tour is sponsored by PokerStars, who add value to the comps


2. Amateur players have no collective voice worldwide, some Pro organisations have been formed in the US. APAT is a start to give this broad and amorphous group of players a collective voice AND their interests are likely to be very different from that of the Pros.

3.How do we come up with an unlimited capacity event?

4. The Broadway does not charge juice. The juice will be going to APL (120 x £6.75 lets say) on this occasion only and will pay for, for example, name badges, lunch for all finalists with tikay etc, welcome packs, trophies/mementoes...just some examples off the top of my head

For Event 2 onwards APL will receive none of the juice because almost every other venue takes the juice, so it is unreasonable to say that APL will be benefitting from lets say £800-1000 every event Gross profit.

This is seperate income from membership fees, which goes towards the costs and running of an effective players association


In no way shape or form is this an attempt by ANY of us to take advantage of any player or member.

1. The Tour may be sponsored by pokerstars and so they should add value as every member is encouraged to sign up

2. Shouldn't it be both pro and am even though each has a different requirement, the amateurs should out number the pro's but at least they have a say, there is nothing in this country

3. Exactly, why is there even a comp The Tour bit baffles me

4. Thats just taking the pee out of a casino that is proud not to charge. So if it was walsall there would be no meal, trophies, name badges etc

I can understand the membership thing and agree with a membership fee

And I am by no means saying that YOU are taking advantage?

[totalise]

"Now do I see where the profit questions are coming from?". Well, no, not really! As I asked earlier, (nobody replied), what's the problem with profit, if we get what we want?

I'll say what I think below the second quote:

"when it came to light" & "now everything is out in the open"......Again, you've whooshed me, I'm afraid. At what stage did we hide it?

sorry, that came out completely wrong. Its the notion that as an organisation for players, the assumption (at least on my part) would be that money made goes back into that organisation. At least, that is how it was for me.. because my only other exposure to stuff like this is the WPO thingy... so its easy (although its wrong) to just compare APAT to that and assume that it will be the same.

Once it became clear that it is being operated differently, I have no problem whatsoever with someone making money from this.....its not like its one directional.  I just re-read the quote above and it certainly looks like there is an underhanded accusation of illicit behaviour going on! I apologise for that, and its certainly unfair to make comparisons to another organisation and expect yours to operate the same.

Win-win

[TightEnd]

1. I don't think we disagree dik9

2. Personal view, I beleive it is a forlorn task to get one body to represent the issues pertinent to both ams and pros. Willing to be proven wrong though

3. To offer players maybe new to the live game or on a limited bankroll the chance to play well structured tourneys with considerable added value in the right environment

4. The Broadway and the GC are happy and approve our plans. Might have heard from the Broadway if they thought we were taking the P. If it was at Walsall everything would be provided but at a loss to the APL.

You said that you thought that it was a way of "some clever dick wanting to make a quick buck out of poker"

I was merely saying that your possible view was completely erroneous

Whatever teething problems there are or corrections that need to be made, our intentions are honourable towards our members

[dik9]

Whatever teething problems there are or corrections that need to be made, our intentions are honourable towards our members

Never doubted you sir

[Karabiner]

Nobody replied to my question asking whether I am considered to be a "pro".

I get a living (just) presently from playing lower limit cash games and tournies online and I am moderately successful
betting on sports.

 Unfortunately I have to pay the bills and that has so far prevented me from moving up the limits.

But to me that is way better than working even if I put in 60 hours per week.

So am I welcome to play in these tournies if I wish to or not ?

An answer would be appreciated.

[Graham C]

It will be good I am sure.  Hopefully this can act as a foundation for players to reach the big time.  It is a great idea, in almost all other sports there are staircases of talent that provide a platform for the talent to rise to the top. Why not in poker as well.  The APAT will be that staircase.  I would love to play in it at some time in the future.  Very best of luck to all those involved   

I quite agree

(Hopefully) It's a way for the small time player to get a bash at the big events.  There's no way I'm forking out loads to play in a major event and the chances of qualifying online is generally slim to none so hopefully this will be a great thing.  It's still a bit out of my price bracket to pay for a tourney but I appreciate that if you want to play with the big boys, you do have to dip into your pocket - you can't expect everything on a freeroll   and as mentioned by someone earlier, it's more of a level where it can be a treat to yourself rather than a weekly bill.  If it's not too heavy with people claiming to be amateurs when they are poker pro's then it will be great for people like me and I'm looking forward to having a bash