Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT)

[Ginger]

I need to revert back to the "dangler" I posed about Online Sats.

As I have Posted elsewhere, I have no role in the OSAP, but online sats for APAT sort of "crosses" the line, so I checked it out with Des.

The present position is that it's likely (note "likely") that the following will be the case.

Online Sats will be run for the European Amateur Poker Championship (pencilled in for Deauville in April, but tbc) & The World Amateur Poker Championship, provisionally scheduled for Vegas next summer.

By their very nature, the buy-ins for these two events may well be higher, thus justifying Online Sats, & it's planned that these will indeed take place.

Tikay gave a reply to this question yesterday Claire, hope this clarifies it for you.

[Claw75]

I need to revert back to the "dangler" I posed about Online Sats.

As I have Posted elsewhere, I have no role in the OSAP, but online sats for APAT sort of "crosses" the line, so I checked it out with Des.

The present position is that it's likely (note "likely") that the following will be the case.

Online Sats will be run for the European Amateur Poker Championship (pencilled in for Deauville in April, but tbc) & The World Amateur Poker Championship, provisionally scheduled for Vegas next summer.

By their very nature, the buy-ins for these two events may well be higher, thus justifying Online Sats, & it's planned that these will indeed take place.

Tikay gave a reply to this question yesterday Claire, hope this clarifies it for you.

Thanks Ginger.  Yes, I saw that yesterday, but I still don't understand the reasoning behind 'no satellites' for the UK based events.

[TightEnd]

The official answer is not yes/no!

The official answer is that there are not online satellites for the uk based events but are likely to be for the European and World events that are likely to have higher buy ins

£75 for Event 1 has been carefully set to be a) affordable to most recreational players as a very occasional rather than an every week expense yet b) to generate a prize pool even before the added value that is worth fighting over

I can tell you from my own experience that a £10 rookie comp at Luton (which i do not play) with say 75 runners makes a prize pool of over £3000 for an average spend of £40 each on a routine quietish midweek night.  The field contains both experienced players and complete rookies. With this in mind I don't think £75 for a competition with added value in several ways is excessive. It is certainly cheaper than the chepest festival event you will find, which I think is correct.

Finally, I don't think we are ducking any questions...the vast majority have been answered. Those issues where there are concerns and feedback we have gone away to consider whether our thoughts need to be modified.

[matt674]

If you earn an income (rather than a bit of spare cash) from poker then you're a professional poker player.

Internet players may not be in the same league when it comes to a live tournament as they are online but as most recreational players will come into poker from playing online then take the same amount away from their skill and the differential still remains. And would you seriously consider it being amended to an amateur (unless you earn your money online) tournament?

I disagree with using this terminology to define professional, i work 35 hours a week as an importer of fabric from the far east - i pay tax and i play online poker in my spare time. Yet if you look at my record from feb 2004 on thepokerdb.com then yes in my spare time i manage to make a nice income from poker as well - but i'm not a professional. Some might say "semi-pro" but then your entering an even bigger "grey area" as to who gets defined as what and who is legible and who isnt.

I dont envy what definition APAT finally settle on as no doubt someone will be excluded who feels they should be allowed to play whilst someone who shouldnt really be playing does, even more if one of these people end up winning one of the tournaments and taking an EPT or WSOP seat.

Just as with DTD i think this will be an interesting venture to keep an eye on - it will no doubt set a precedent as to the path that poker may well be taking in the future.

[matt674]

Maybe i should read a whole thread thru again before quoting one post as after it there is a suggestion of capping the amount of money a player can win before he becomes ineligable to play. Whilst i think this would be a good idea in principle its going to be impossible to police and you are going to have to rely on the honesty of the players taking part - and if there is a big prize like a WSOP or EPT seat up for grabs for the winner some people may not disclose their true earnings. It also means that the term "amateur" poker tour would be incorrect as some amateurs would not be allowed to play.

Alex B's definition is good but as Bongo says - when there is a $10000 or €10000 seat available to the winner you'll suddenly find that players are more willing to take part in a £75 freezeout. Also as thetank says some people (myself included) enjoy playing poker for the craic. Personally i would play any tournament even if the buy in were only £5 or £10 if it means i get to play something i enjoy whilst having fun - hence why i have travelled to Birmingham and Glasgow to participate in both BlondeBashes.

[I, Zimbra]

This does suggest that maybe Doubleups definition incorporating tournament winnings might be the way to go.

If you've won less than a certain amount in the last 12 months before the registration of the first tournament you can enter all the tournaments for the following season (this would stop anybody finding themselves in the position of being unable to enter halfway through the season just because they've won some cash in a tournament).

doesn't adopting an entry criteria based on any of the following

- career winnings over $xk
- last year winnings over -$xk
- if you are in say top 200 of Euro rankings

risk penalising the successful amateur who might have a full time job and yet have hit any of these crtieria


Do you not prefer merely excluding those who are sponsored pros?

What other ways are there to define entry away from the very grey area of "who is a pro?"

This might just be the biggest stumbling block for the APAT to actually get around; how do you define who's a pro and who's not?

If it can get around this, it has a great chance.

It's interesting that in most sports/past-times/competitive endeavours, we have very clear ideas and criteria as to who are amateurs and who are not; poker does not seem to fit into that category and is one of the reasons why I do not consider it a sport... yet.

[Royal Flush]

Hello

Just looking for a bit of clarification on a point I raised yesterday.  I asked whether the events were direct buy in only, and was advised by Tighty that they were.  Tikay later confirmed that there would not be any satellites to the UK based events.

Of course that is APATs decision and I have no quarrel with that, I just wondered if someone could explain to me the reasoning behind the 'no satellites' line?

thanks

Claw given that the smallest comps you can play in the UK are in most parts £10 rebuys, then a £75 freezeout is highly unlikely to price any amatuer out. It may well price out people who don't play in casino's and stick to the events like in the blonde poker league. However i dont think they are the target of the APAT. Its for LIVE players and as such £75 is well within the budget.


On a side note, anyone else notice it's cheaper to play a £200/£300 local freezeout in a festival than it is to travel to play this £75 comp in Brum 

[Karabiner]

The nearest place to Nottingham that runs a regular £200/£300 FO is Walsall.

[I, Zimbra]

On a side note, anyone else notice it's cheaper to play a £200/£300 local freezeout in a festival than it is to travel to play this £75 comp in Brum 

Yes, the travel thing is why I probably won't be able to play the opener; I am hoping that the December 'UK Open' will be at a London venue and then I can happily play.

Once you include travel and accommodation, that £75 will easily go over the £200 mark for anyone who doesn't live near the venue.

In essence, if I do pay the £10 it will be a sort of 'gamble' on whether they'll hold an event near enough for me to make it worthwhile. But then, £10 isn't a huge amount on a gamble like that... I am still undecided, but my heart definitely wants to sign up (for whatever that's worth).

[TightEnd]

On a side note, anyone else notice it's cheaper to play a £200/£300 local freezeout in a festival than it is to travel to play this £75 comp in Brum 

we have to hold it somewhere James!

 and of course if an event is local to you you do not have travel and hotel costs!

[Claw75]

Hello

Just looking for a bit of clarification on a point I raised yesterday.  I asked whether the events were direct buy in only, and was advised by Tighty that they were.  Tikay later confirmed that there would not be any satellites to the UK based events.

Of course that is APATs decision and I have no quarrel with that, I just wondered if someone could explain to me the reasoning behind the 'no satellites' line?

thanks

 However i dont think they are the target of the APAT. Its for LIVE players and as such £75 is well within the budget.

I don't think that's quite right flushy - the blurb says that they want to attract people for whom this may be their first live poker experience, or did I totally misread that?  

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I am not in any way suggesting that £75 for what is being offered is in any way expensive. I am sure I would not be alone, however, in simply not being able to justify to myself spending £75 on a single game of poker.  As I said before, I fully accept it is APAT's decision whether or not they want to run satellites, but I was unclear as to the reason for the decision.  Now I have an answer, that's fine!

[Royal Flush]

A lot has been posted on this thread since i was last on.

The main points seem to be:

Should an organisation for the players be making a profit of the players? I would say no.

How do you define a 'pro' or more importantly how do you stop them entering? Well you can't as such its a bit silly to restrict them from entering the comp.

What do you get out of the APAT as a member? You get the right to play in a selection of events around the country and also you will have you will join a collective voice.

The collective voice? You get a group of people (we don't know who yet) telling your local casino how you want poker to be run. Is a standardised set of rules really that important for a amateur who most likely only ever plays in 1 or 2 venues, it seems to me more like a concern for the pro. I guess thats because the APAT is run by pro's. We will have to wait to see who is brought on board to try and improve grass roots poker. As someone who plays poker on-line, on the circuit and at local comps i really don't see the need for a combined voice for amateurs, when they have problems with something at the casino they just tell the staff, and if its what they all want it's what happens!

The selection of tournaments? Billed as 'good structured comps' i think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would say that a structure missing 150-300 and going str8 from 600-1200 to 1k-2k is a good structure! Personally i would use the term crapshoot. As for finishing at midnight, this could be a good idea, i do not know. People who have jobs don't want to be messing up their bodyclocks playing to 4am so it is probably a good idea. Of course that means you get a lot of players having to hang around for day 2 and getting no money. This of course comes back to the question of why people play them. If its for a fun weekend then i don't think anyone will complain about this. Personally i don't mind playing till 5 am but i don't have to be up on Monday morning.

Deals in the comps? A few pages back it was said deals would not be allowed, that is surely not really in the spirit of the event. Why can't players not chop up their cash and play for the added prize pokerstars are adding? Maybe that is what was meant. If so, good on ya!

And please don't be calling the buffet free if its being paid for out of the juice you take of the players!!! It's not free its just pre paid!!!

I also agree with IFM (uck) Dik9 has made some very good contributions from a wealth of subject knowledge and experience.

[matt674]

A lot has been posted on this thread since i was last on.

The main points seem to be:

Should an organisation for the players be making a profit of the players? I would say no.

How do you define a 'pro' or more importantly how do you stop them entering? Well you can't as such its a bit silly to restrict them from entering the comp.

What do you get out of the APAT as a member? You get the right to play in a selection of events around the country and also you will have you will join a collective voice.

The collective voice? You get a group of people (we don't know who yet) telling your local casino how you want poker to be run. Is a standardised set of rules really that important for a amateur who most likely only ever plays in 1 or 2 venues, it seems to me more like a concern for the pro. I guess thats because the APAT is run by pro's. We will have to wait to see who is brought on board to try and improve grass roots poker. As someone who plays poker on-line, on the circuit and at local comps i really don't see the need for a combined voice for amateurs, when they have problems with something at the casino they just tell the staff, and if its what they all want it's what happens!

The selection of tournaments? Billed as 'good structured comps' i think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would say that a structure missing 150-300 and going str8 from 600-1200 to 1k-2k is a good structure! Personally i would use the term crapshoot. As for finishing at midnight, this could be a good idea, i do not know. People who have jobs don't want to be messing up their bodyclocks playing to 4am so it is probably a good idea. Of course that means you get a lot of players having to hang around for day 2 and getting no money. This of course comes back to the question of why people play them. If its for a fun weekend then i don't think anyone will complain about this. Personally i don't mind playing till 5 am but i don't have to be up on Monday morning.

Deals in the comps? A few pages back it was said deals would not be allowed, that is surely not really in the spirit of the event. Why can't players not chop up their cash and play for the added prize pokerstars are adding? Maybe that is what was meant. If so, good on ya!

And please don't be calling the buffet free if its being paid for out of the juice you take of the players!!! It's not free its just pre paid!!!

I also agree with IFM (uck) Dik9 has made some very good contributions from a wealth of subject knowledge and experience.

  now there's a smiley i never thought i'd use on one of flushys posts!!

I dont think the clock should be much of a concern though - that is easily remedied and i'm sure that when the first event kicks off there will be a decent structure in place. I'd prefer the early finish as most days i have to get up the following morning for work but if its a weekend then i'd rather play as late as possible to get the event as far along as can be so that fewer people have to return on the sunday with the possibility of no reward.

Suppose this thread will be a "watch this space" to see what the APAT will offer to the poker player, recreational - amateur - semi-pro or professional.

[TightEnd]

James

1. the holding company is profit making, the Association is non profit. An organisation in APL (the holding company) that is generating no profit has no chance to be professional in its dealings with the various stakeholders that it will seek to interact with on behalf of its members...websites cost money to maintain, events cost money to put on etc etc (usually apat will not be receiving juice the venue will, the bradway is an exception). I think you will find that apat offers in time value for money for its members. I am surprised that you with your background think profit is a dirty word. Acceptable levels of profit are the lifeblood of business. Racketeering or anti competitive behaviour clearly isn't. £10 initial fee and then £5 per annum thereafter strikes me as reasonable to cover costs, especially if the association succeeds in effecting change

2. The competitions are aimed at recreational/hobby players and not at pros. Because of the feedback we have received we are going away to readdress the issue of "amateur/pro" and we will let you know what we decide.

3. I believe a collective voice can represent the vast majority of players in this country who are recreational or amateur. How many times have we seen comments that people do not like rules being different across say the same chain of casinos? We can also work with gaming organistations and sponsors towards gaining regular added value for people wherever they are playing

4. The structure. No 150-300 but there is 75-100. No 800-1600 but there is 500-1000 which you never see elswhere. By the time the 800-1600 level is missed players will have been playing for over 6 hours and the average stack will be 60kish. Frankly suggestions that this is a crapshoot demean someone as intellligent as yourself.

5. Deals. This is different. the first three finishers receive gold silver and bronze medals representing if you like the ultimate amateur ethos we see in sporting amateur events. The added value package is unsplittable and the aim is to have a competitive final table through to the end with no one in say 8th hanging on to ladder up for £75 more...play to win!

6. The buffet is being provided free by the Broadway. The players juice is not paying for it. As I said previously the players juice is going to fund other added value items and expenses.







 

[mikkyT]

TightEnd you go down in my estimations. I had you out as a sensible chap and its been good to read your well written responses to the questions here.

But you've crossed the line by confusing flushy with someone else. At least I assume thats what you did:

someone as intelligent as yourself