Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT)

[AdamM]

such a frustrating topic for someone trying to bite their lip and not post anything controvertial.

I am going to try and have another say and think carefuly about my phrasing.

I think the issue of Pro/amature as it's being discussed in this thread is a HUGE red herring. As I posted in a thread recently I've just returned to full time work after trying to grind out a living from low stake poker. I never drew any profit from my Tshirt business and wasnt drawing unemployment benefit so there's no doubt 'technically' I was a Pro. that said, three months ago I couldnt afford a trip to Birmingham and a £75 entry fee. now Im an amature again I can easily afford £75 (though I still think it's too much)

I have a feeling that when the words Pro and Amature are banded around theres alot of ego at stake. maybe some players who proudly call themselves pros suddenly see a nice juicey game they are excluded from. maybe some players who are sharks in their local game are afraid that this 'amature event' will be filled with bigger sharks than them. maybe there are some players afraid of admitting that rather than being pros they're unemployed.

As I say, I think the agrument is a red herring. put together events that are unattractive to the genuine pros and worthwhile to amatures. For me that's a £50 1 day game with a reasonable starting stack (10kish) and a moderate clock (30 mins ish).

If you get some online pros or some low stakes live grinders, thats ok. many of them will add to the atmosphere anyway (particularly some of our resident online pros) you're unlikely to get many 5 figure winners in the door, and if the odd one turns up, over a field of amatures they won't have a huge edge.

Please make a bold executive decision on this and get the discussion moved on because I fear this issue will cloud over all the potential good the organisation can achieve

Also, please reconsider the 600/1200 to 1000/2000 jump. it's a swing and a miss.

[Karabiner]

AdamM the perfect example of what I have been trying to say....

[dik9]

The crux of my problem, is that I am 100% behind a poker association for the UK, and all the good it can do, for cardrooms, pro's and amatuers alike. However this association is under the umbrella of a commercial enterprise. No credible association should be under an umbrella like this.

The foundation is fantastic but the building is not!!

These should be two seperate entities. With the association completely detached from any commercial interest. Run by people who care about poker and do not care about the money they may make. Tikay , yourself and Mel are doing this without financial interest, showing that you care about the direction of poker, so you are the right people with the right motives, as would be agreed by anyone on this forum. The dark cloud however is APL.

This is a backdoor way of holding legal comps, without the expense of running, staffing and hiring of a property, and completely amazed that the Broadway has swallowed for this. Do they know that you intend to pay by cheque and that they won't be able to have a sniff at the £8,500 ish in prize money?

Juice is a neccessity for DTD for eg, but I am so passionate that a casino should never charge players to pay. By that extent the Broadway will have allowed someone else to charge it rather than themselves, on their premises. I can tell you now what will happen, the Broadway will see that they can make £500- £1000 a night and still get full (because juice is the norm now) and my fights against it will be undone. This gets my goat. Not only that, If and i say If it remains at £7.50 juice it will be over 10% and if it is agreed by the gaming board, opening a whole new can of worms.

Casino's can hold good comps, with good structures with varying degrees of entrance for their amatuer poker players, direction is needed in areas like house rules, unified rules, payout structures, greivance procedures, penalties etc. The people that run these cardrooms (supervisors and TD's) know what will be successful, and if I was still working @ the Broadway, I would be screwing that someone could come in and run a comp "the way players want it run", we know how they want it run, they are our customers (ok technically not being as though this is a private comp). It is the management that puts the interest of the pit first that we are fighting.  Is this a "watch how it should be done" excercise?

Every poker player in the country should be included FREE or maybe voluntary donations and I so wish I was further down the line with my project (no plug because i am no where near completion). This maybe why I am so outspoken on this subject, because it incorporates some of my ethos and then goes off at a completely different tangent than I would. I can see that I am not doing any favours towards APAT, so will bow out of this debate and stop sticking my oar in. May still ask a few questions though

[RioRodent]

Wow... It's been a job trying to keep up with this thread!!!

I've just introduced our cat to the neighbours pigeons, so I'll now share a thought with you all...

I wonder... if the APA (no T) had been launched yesterday, with a £10 membership fee, purely as an association to provide a voice for the amateur, recreational player... with no mention of cheap tourneys with attractive added value...

Would so much of this thread have been taken up with trying define the line between amateur and professional? Would so many, who by their own admission play poker as their primary source of income, be so keen to sign up?  I think not.

Unfortunately the definition on the APAT homepage - "any individual who earns his or her SOLE income by playing poker" - opens the door to just about everyone.

Well, that was my thought for the day... now back to reality...

Cheers,
Alan  

[dik9]

Wow... It's been a job trying to keep up with this thread!!!

I've just introduced our cat to the neighbours pigeons, so I'll now share a thought with you all...

I wonder... if the APA (no T) had been launched yesterday, with a £10 membership fee, purely as an association to provide a voice for the amateur, recreational player... with no mention of cheap tourneys with attractive added value...

Would so much of this thread have been taken up with trying define the line between amateur and professional? Would so many, who by their own admission play poker as their primary source of income, be so keen to sign up?  I think not.

Unfortunately the definition on the APAT homepage - "any individual who earns his or her SOLE income by playing poker" - opens the door to just about everyone.

Well, that was my thought for the day... now back to reality...

Cheers,
Alan  

Exactly!

[mikee_j]

Just about trawled through all the posts in this thread..... phew. The first thing i have to say is that this to me is something that really is exciting and it seems like a great idea.

Reading the posts i have to agree with everything that Jon MW and diceman have posted about the 'pro/amateur' debate.

The whole argument of who can enter seems to have missed what I would consider the vital point.

The Pros might want to enter it for the social aspect which is fair enough, but just because they're not entering because of the 'easy money', it won't make them worse players. If the more experienced and skilfull semi-professional type of players enter, it's more likely they will win and less likely that a proper full time, recreational amateur player (say for example, me) will win instead.

Although I would quite like to play against some named players live some time (even online playing against some pros on Full Tilt has been quite cool) I would also like to win - or at least cash - or at least get some points. All of these are less likely the higher the bar is set for who is allowed to play.

If these events end up being dominated by players who already earn £000's a year playing poker then I won't even consider staying with it for a second year. The benefit this tour offers over those weekly games is the added money, the title etc - if I have no chance of winning these I might as well stick to online or, if live, the weekly poker tournaments in casinos.


From a personal point of view this is definately something i want to play in because it will create that festival style play of long levels and large starting stacks without having to pay £000s for buyins. but i would be slightly 'put off' or less interested to make the effort to travel and play in some of these tours if there were high earning semi-pros playing.

i will be keeping a keen eye on developments.

[Wardonkey]

I really don't understand the antagonism against APL as a profit making organisation. It is not a union or a charity, why shouldn't those that invest time and money in such a venture make a few quid if it's succesful. At £10 per membership no member is being asked to risk anything substantial and in fact due to the large overlays offered by the proposed tourneys if they play just one event then they will get more than their money back.

They have said on a number of occasions on this thread that the 'juice' issue is being looked at, I am sure they will not end up charging more than 10% of the buy-in, in the same way that casinos currently calculate their maximum reg fee.

[dik9]

Ask anyone that is running an illegal cardroom for the pleasure of it, rather than the money. 100's of little clubs that put the comp that players want, cheap entry deepstacked tournies, and face closure and prosecution.

[Wardonkey]

Ask anyone that is running an illegal cardroom for the pleasure of it, rather than the money. 100's of little clubs that put the comp that players want, cheap entry deepstacked tournies, and face closure and prosecution.

Sorry, I have no idea what your point is...

[dik9]

This is a backdoor way of holding legal comps, without the expense of running, staffing and hiring of a property,

It is also a way round the licensing issue. Effectively everything is laid on, including a shrowd of an association, which legitimises it.

[thediceman]

2. The competitions are aimed at recreational/hobby players and not at pros. Because of the feedback we have received we are going away to readdress the issue of "amateur/pro" and we will let you know what we decide.

So the competitions are aimed at recreational/hobby players. And was it not stated these competitions are designed to allow amateur players the opportunity to experience main event structures they normally don't get the opportunity to experience?.

I just can't agree that only excluding sponsored players as pro's and not those who make any sizeable income from playing poker is a good thing for the creditabilty for an organisation and it's claim to be for the interests of the amateur player. A number of players who are clearly not recreational/hobby players have already stated they would want to play in this fun event just for the social element. Then there will also be a number of non recreational/hobby players who will want to play in this amateur tournament just for it's added value. To allow players who clearly don't fall into the classification of a recreational/hobby player to me means these events are clearly open invitation to ALL players and not just amateurs. As a result I would question if such an association is really representing me as an amatuer as oppossed to poker players in general.

Will the APAT tournaments gain any creditability as an amateur association if it has players who are seen playing regularly at the various UK festivals and especially anybody who plays in the main events which have £1000 plus entry fees. Where is the creditabilty if these "known profitable poker faces" actually win oneof the APAT events. If the events are to be open events, other than the sponsored pro than maybe the concept of it being a association for just amateurs needs to be dropped.

These events are clearly going to sell out so does the defination of pro really have to be so watered down that it practically includes everybody or will this events truley just involve the recreational/hobbie player???. Personally I want to play in this events as it allows me to play structures that I can not afford. Also the added value of the opportunity to win a package to the larger events is very attractive. This however is less attractive if I know non recreational/hobby, people who make a decent profit from playing poker, are involved. These events are then pro/ams and not amatuer events. If this is the case if I register and play the APAT tournament only to find myself against players who frequentantly play festival main events would I be entitled to a refund as the event is not as advertised, for recreational/hobby players.

 

[mikee_j]

2. The competitions are aimed at recreational/hobby players and not at pros. Because of the feedback we have received we are going away to readdress the issue of "amateur/pro" and we will let you know what we decide.

So the competitions are aimed at recreational/hobby players. And was it not stated these competitions are designed to allow amateur players the opportunity to experience main event structures they normally don't get the opportunity to experience?.

I just can't agree that only excluding sponsored players as pro's and not those who make any sizeable income from playing poker is a good thing for the creditabilty for an organisation and it's claim to be for the interests of the amateur player. A number of players who are clearly not recreational/hobby players have already stated they would want to play in this fun event just for the social element. Then there will also be a number of non recreational/hobby players who will want to play in this amateur tournament just for it's added value. To allow players who clearly don't fall into the classification of a recreational/hobby player to me means these events are clearly open invitation to ALL players and not just amateurs. As a result I would question if such an association is really representing me as an amatuer as oppossed to poker players in general.

 

But i will probably still have a go at one of the tour events for the main reason of the great structure and the fact that for many low limit players like myself, we will not have many chances to play in such a tournament with 10k stack, 40min clock and an event which goes on for 2 days.

[TightEnd]

diceman

I have a lot of sympathy for your view. The way you describe it is the way that we envisaged apat working.

All I have said is that due to the enormous feedback from those in the grey area of pro/semi pro that we are going to look again at the issue

What I do know is that it will be impossible to keep everyone happy....there is however a VERY strong argument that the first people we should keep happy is the genuine amateur to whom this organisation is aimed

[TightEnd]

dik9


Strong stuff sir


Let me make a few points



I see nothing wrong in having a players association under the umbrella of a commercial enterprise. Neither does tikay. We are both successful business people. The managing director and his experienced commerical team are working together to secure deals, some of which have already come to fruition in sponsorships, for the total benefit of our player base as it develops.

Do you expect this "talent" (not me, I'm just the whipping boy!) to do this for nothing on an entirely altruistic basis? As long as the profit gained by the organisation is reasonable and enables the association via APL to add value to its members then I see nothing wrong with commerciality. This is not George Orwell's "Animal Farm" or a society in which we are a workers collective!

Yes the Broadway is aware of our plans to pay by cheque. Yes the Gaming Commission has signed off on our structures, payouts and plans in their entirety. Juice will be kept within the 10% maximum. This commitment has already been given. It is not a backdoor way of running a comp. If the Broadway are happy to provide all their services for little or no cost then that is a terrific deal for us. Do you wish us to turn it down?

You are not still working at the Broadway, you work for another gaming organisation. I suggest to you that they would be unhappy to run their comps for free. Casinos make money directly from poker players via cash game charges, juice and then other expenditures, albeit sometimes as a loss leader. It is not realistic to expect venues or the organiser (however a contract is struck) to charge nothing.

Why is there any licensing issue here at all? this is no backdoor way to hold comps..the entire professionalism of the team running apat demands that all our comps will be held in legal licensed venues

No it is not an exercise in "how it should be done". We will make mistakes, we have done so already according to a lot of people. However we will progress and learn and think players in our association will have the opportunity to have a voice and a tremendous tournament experience alongisde that voice.

[thediceman]

diceman

I have a lot of sympathy for your view. The way you describe it is the way that we envisaged apat working.

All I have said is that due to the enormous feedback from those in the grey area of pro/semi pro that we are going to look again at the issue

What I do know is that it will be impossible to keep everyone happy....there is however a VERY strong argument that the first people we should keep happy is the genuine amateur to whom this organisation is aimed

Tightend, I fully appreciate your position and as I stated in a early post:-

"I am optimistic that the APAT has the best interests of all poker players and can only see it's creation as a benefit in the long run. Naturally with the creation of anything new there will be discussion points and initial ideas will be modified according to whatever feedback is given. I do however think the key thing is that Des appears to have put a team together that has a GENIUNE interest in improving things in the poker world for the players."

Indeed you can never keep everybody happy. The most important thing is to stay true to the intial concept which I'm confident you guys will.