Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT)

[AdamM]

I've been persuaded to at least have a go at putting things right.

I honestly don't intend to post controvertially. When I'm in a rush or not concentrating 100% I don't put my true meaning across and sometimes upset some people. Unfortunately I seem to be one of several people who aren't given alot of breathing space. I made a post on this thread and logged off for an hour or two. I came back to see what response there'd been and found myself to be public enemy number 1. I rushed a post out to try and stop the flow but the damage was done. I had decided to leave Blonde for good, not because people had disagreed with me but because of the manner in which they'd done it. I object to being insulted. I don't know where calling someone a cock sits in the Blonde ethos but it certainly wasn't done 12 months ago, whatever the provocation.

I'm going to have one crack at clarifying my position. I'm going to type slowly and re-read it twice before I hit post.

I don't think anyone should be excluded from APAT for their lifestyle choice. I think the buyin should be a little lower than it is to disuade bigger budgetted players. If any known pros make regular appearances a polite word from the organisers would probably do.

I admire anyone making their living from poker. When I lost my job 18 moths ago I tried looking for full time work and was claiming job seekers allowance. I would play the odd £10 home game or even a £30 freeze every now and again but I certainly wouldnt have been able to afford a £75 two day event. I wouldnt have been able to afford the petrol let alone the game.  When I decided to start up a small business and play low stakes poker to support my family I signed off Job Seekers Allowance. My views on this are not pertinent to this discussion so I should have left them out.

Similarly I admire anyone putting themselves through education by winning money at poker (particulary Ginger, who is also supporting a family). I do believe that makes them proffessional but I reitterate, I DONT believe they should be excluded from APAT events.

I know several people who grinding a living by playing low level games and deal casino cash games and private home games. they are making their living from poker so, I believe are proffessional. I see no reason why they shouldnt be allowed to play. in any given card room there are dozens of these guys. what's the point removing them from the APAT? Someone hit the nail on the head earlier saying its an AMATURE tour rather than a NOVICE tour. there's going to be some very strong players involved who's lifestyle in no way depends on their poker winnings. why exlude weaker players who's lifestyle DOES depend on their poker winnings (or loses)

One more time, just incase Im not clear. I don't believe anyone should be excluded just for being dependant on poker to live (which is what I think is the basic definition) I think it should be an open door policy where if 'NAME' players turn up some common sense is applied and a polite word is had.

Also to clarify, my intention was not to offend. I apologise to anyone who I have upset and if anyone feels any particular part of my controversial post was particularly offensive to them, I'm happy to apologise for that publiclly and specifically.

Finally, I do feel that personal insults, ridicule and threatening behaviour does go on through this forum. could people please remember that Blonde is supposed to be above that. If someone post something that you don't like, politely explain why you don't like it and give them a chance to explain, reposition or agree to differ. don't be dismissive and don't insult people. I certainly didnt direct any of my post at anyone individual and as I've said, and specific offence caused is something I'm happy to apologise for, but the responses were specific and personal.

As I said in my 'happy to be amature' thread a while ago, I'm trying to be less controversial and be less inclined to bite at a bit of ribbing but theres a line and some people keep crossing it.

Sorry again to those offended and thanks to those who've supported me over this.

[byronkincaid]

 

[TightEnd]

Well done Adam


Just for clarification the derogatory post to which Adam refers was deleted as flaming. So don't waste your time trying to find that one!

[Colchester Kev]

Welcome back ..... Perhaps on reflection my original post was written too soon after reading yours, and i could have worded it better ............ I still dont agree with you though

[AdamM]

Im ok with you disagreeing with me. I don't know you well but you always seemed like a nice bloke.
If someone I like disagrees with me I'm interested to hear why so maybe I can change my mind. I'm always willing to reassess my position on things. Unfortunately ontop of my ability to write my thoughts down badly and upset people, I've also got a temper I'm in constant conflict with. I try very hard to be a calm, peaceful listener but I have a tendancy to react quickly and do or say things I later regret.

Don't we all?

[Colchester Kev]

Im ok with you disagreeing with me. I don't know you well but you always seemed like a nice bloke.
If someone I like disagrees with me I'm interested to hear why so maybe I can change my mind. I'm always willing to reassess my position on things. Unfortunately ontop of my ability to write my thoughts down badly and upset people, I've also got a temper I'm in constant conflict with. I try very hard to be a calm, peaceful listener but I have a tendancy to react quickly and do or say things I later regret.

Don't we all?

If we get time at the bash next month, I would gladly have a beer with you and discuss why i disagree so strongly with your views.

Ps. I am a nice bloke

[Wardonkey]

Welcome back Adam.

[Dewi_cool]

Im ok with you disagreeing with me. I don't know you well but you always seemed like a nice bloke.
If someone I like disagrees with me I'm interested to hear why so maybe I can change my mind. I'm always willing to reassess my position on things. Unfortunately ontop of my ability to write my thoughts down badly and upset people, I've also got a temper I'm in constant conflict with. I try very hard to be a calm, peaceful listener but I have a tendancy to react quickly and do or say things I later regret.

Don't we all?

If we get time at the bash next month, I would gladly have a beer with you and discuss why i disagree so strongly with your views.

Ps. I am a nice bloke

Why dont we have a I disagree smiley?

[BrumBilly]

Terrible Idea Dewi Can't agree to that!

[Harmony26]

Glad to see you back, Adam.

[thetank]

Why dont we have a I disagree smiley?

       >:?  or could all work in the right context as such a thing.

[tikay]

Hi Adam, delighted you are still with us, & that was a very brave Post you just made. I look forward to seeing you at bB3, we can share a pot of tea, and maybe I will bring along my "private" jar of Ovaltine.

blonde remains a non-flame forum, & we will continue to deal with flaming as we always have.

[tikay]

OK, I am going to continue the generic response to the various issues raised in this thread. Please remember these are "thinking out loud", & your constructive feedback is all being taken on board.

My APAT colleagues & I had another lengthy Conference Call last night to work through various issues, & the work willl continue. We will make this thing work, & it must be said, the response has been much higher than we dared hope, so we are on the right road, we just have to get the detail right. It's very hard work, & most time-consuming, but also satisfying, especially if we achieve our aims.

But it's easy to see why previous attempts to form such an organisation have failed, everyone says we need one, but any attempt to form one results in a few peeps standing on the sidelines & chucking stones - but thats how they get their kicks. I find it a curiosity that they do this, just as it will always remain a mystery to me why folks vandalise phone-boxes or run keys along the side of parked cars. But it is what it is. I like trains, they like chucking spanners in the works.

My one-time Chairman, John Kirkland, OBE, had a rule about these things. We were not allowed to bring problems to him, unless we also gave him a suggested solution. "Don't bring me your problems, bring me your answers" he'd say. "Anyone can say whats wrong, but the brighter ones think it through & come up with an answer first". The satisfying thing about blonde is that so many of you have aired sensible suggstions - it's noted, thank you.

Anyway, enough of that, lets try & answer some more questions.

[thediceman]

it is called the amateur  poker tour not the novice poker tour

i think there is a call for 3 tours

the amateur the novice and the pro tours

once you move up from one to another you cant move down

Indeed it is, as I understand, intended to be an amateur tour and not a novice tour. I have just picked up on an earlier statement by one of the APAT team that said "it hopes it's core market to be recreational/hobby players not use to playing live" or something to that effect and suggested a cut off point. I would hate to see these recreational/hobby players miss out on an opportunity just because the same old faces, who have limited interest in the development of the grass roots game, register first just because this looks like it is fun. I suggested festival main event players as a cut off point because I really don't think this tour is targeted towards players who regular pay £1000 plus for festival comps. With regards to your own situation there is always the opportunity of "common sense" being applied by the APAT at there discreation. There has to be a defining line somewhere otherwise we can see an amatuer event dominated by anything but the recreational/hobby player. Say someone like Gary Bush played the APAT comp just for fun and won. Congrats to Gary for this achievement but I don't think Gary Bush, English Amateur champion gives any creditabilty to it being a comp for amateurs.

You saying there should be 3 tours, which maybe already exists with WPT & EPT for the pros, this APAT tour for the majority and the pub tour/comp, for the novice players who are not interested in casino comps. Whilst I suggested a cut of point, which clearly concerns you, it was just a suggestion. I would prefer to penalise a few players in that grey area rather than see the event taken over by poker faces and excluded lower profile players. Maybe you have stumbled over a defination for the cut of point which could be to excluded any players that have played on the EPT. This is easily workable. Personally I still think this risks seeing to many "faces" at the exclution of attracting newer faces to the live scene but hey it appears more important to not dare exclude anybody rather than develop the grass roots of poker. Personally I think the more players attracted out of the pubs and off the interent and into casino's/live games provides a greater opportunity to win a few more £££ so I say yes let's encourage the recreational/hobby player not scare them away.

[tikay]

If an Event sells out, how will we allocate seats?

We don't know yet!

A "click-fest" at midnight on August 31st? No, no way. That would be horrible.

Lets re-wind a bit. Pre-Launch, 4 days ago, the question that pre-occupied me was "supposing only 20 or 30 or 40 people want to turn up & play, how embarrassing will that be?". Maybe my colleagues were more bullish, but I'm more conservative in these things. As it turned out, demand has been huge. Membership alone, never mind "expressions of interest", far, far, exceeds the capacity of any UK Venue. We don't, & never will, control Venues capacity. Maybe if APAT works & we get a lot of recreational players to support us at Live Events, it will help to drive capacity up.

I only know of 1 venue in the UK that can seat more than 200 comfortably. ("comfortably" being key), and that's not open yet. Yes, APAT & DtD are busy talking to each other, & Rob is 100% APAT supportive. He has a rule that if someone wants to bring an event to DtD, the sponsors MUST add value. He has confirmed we would be DtD compliant. But thats further down the line, so watch this space.

Back to September 23/24. We don't yet know the solution to how we allocate seats (assuming it sells out), but we WILL try & make it fair, & accountable, to our Members. Expect some sort of solution within the next week.

Members pay their tenner & do not get a seat at Event One? That will be regrettable, but we don't control capacity. But for that £10, they get a lot more than the right to play a single Live Event. 7 Live Events are scheduled for Season One, & 20 or 30 Online events. And, lets not forget, the Members will be collating their aspirations via their committee, & APAT will use it's voice to lobby Venues & the GC for change for the better, to unify rules, to get a better deal for poker players, to get more added value. I guess some bright spark will say "you have sold Membership for APAT, but the Member cannot play Event One". Let's hope Mr Spark includes asuggestion of how to sort it in a fair & accountable way.

It's a complex equation, but faint heart never won fair lady. We have come up with a range of options, & are evaluating them right now. But it's a nice problem to have. Septmber 23/24 WILL be good days, fun days, enjoyable days, satisfying days. I'm utterly confident of that.