Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT)

[Indestructable]

Thanks for response.

[Royal Flush]

Can we approach the GC directly? In due course, yes............we will open direct channels with the GC if we can.

Gala & Grosvenor? We shall see.

How do you get a casino chain or the gaming commission to listen to you? Is it not possible they just ignore you? I have never tried to do so, are they eager to take up discussions with APAT?

We believe that when our Rules have been used a few times, & the feedback shows how much better/more consistent they are, others will adopt them. So even if you don't play our Tour Events, even if you don't become a Member in fact, it's likely that the APAT bow-wave will impact on Poker locally, regionally, & nationally. Those who don't want that will be able to join APAT & lobby for change via us, or do their own thing. The important thing is that the catalyst for change is there.

The idea is that the casino keeps the rules you had for the APAT event for the normal events? What about Casino chains, surely they all have to keep to the same guidelines? If say you had an event in Luton, and they decided to keep the same rules used for the APAT event then would it not make the difference between casino's even greater? Surely this has to be done from the top down rather than individual casino's adopting them? Which i guess takes us back to the paragraph above.

it got inferred that we were creaming off the difference between £67.50 & £68.25. A one-eyed donkey could reason out that it was a simple mistake

Then how come it got past the Chairman and MD of APAT?

my reputation has been tarnished by innuendo suggesting we'd nick a few bob. Me!

I got the impression at Rob's party (it was a bit hard not to get it, you did a good job of getting it across) that you felt i thought you were trying to rip people off/steal money. At no point have i accused yourself, Richard or Des of doing any such thing. If you are referring to other people then i am sorry. If it was directed at me then i will stop posting on any thread to do with APAT because i really can't be bothered dealing with the hassle that comes about when raising players concerns.

[Gamblor21]

nice open post flushy... as i said in newcastle i agree with alot of what you said and to be honest have kept out of the thread as i don't want to seem as though i am "slagging" the APAT.

It is a touchy subject which seems close to many peoples hearts, and has to be looked at objectively by all parties! Remember we all want what is best for poker.

[tikay]

Can we approach the GC directly? In due course, yes............we will open direct channels with the GC if we can.

Gala & Grosvenor? We shall see.

How do you get a casino chain or the gaming commission to listen to you? Is it not possible they just ignore you? I have never tried to do so, are they eager to take up discussions with APAT?

We believe that when our Rules have been used a few times, & the feedback shows how much better/more consistent they are, others will adopt them. So even if you don't play our Tour Events, even if you don't become a Member in fact, it's likely that the APAT bow-wave will impact on Poker locally, regionally, & nationally. Those who don't want that will be able to join APAT & lobby for change via us, or do their own thing. The important thing is that the catalyst for change is there.

The idea is that the casino keeps the rules you had for the APAT event for the normal events? What about Casino chains, surely they all have to keep to the same guidelines? If say you had an event in Luton, and they decided to keep the same rules used for the APAT event then would it not make the difference between casino's even greater? Surely this has to be done from the top down rather than individual casino's adopting them? Which i guess takes us back to the paragraph above.

it got inferred that we were creaming off the difference between £67.50 & £68.25. A one-eyed donkey could reason out that it was a simple mistake

Then how come it got past the Chairman and MD of APAT?

my reputation has been tarnished by innuendo suggesting we'd nick a few bob. Me!

I got the impression at Rob's party (it was a bit hard not to get it, you did a good job of getting it across) that you felt i thought you were trying to rip people off/steal money. At no point have i accused yourself, Richard or Des of doing any such thing. If you are referring to other people then i am sorry. If it was directed at me then i will stop posting on any thread to do with APAT because i really can't be bothered dealing with the hassle that comes about when raising players concerns.

Hi James,

I hope you had an enjoyable weekend. Dealing with your questions/points in order.....

1) It's possible they'll ignore us, yes, but until we try we won't know. Why should they ignore anyone? We dealt with them, via The Broadway's Compliance Officer, & they were most helpful. I don't think the way to effect change is to give up without trying. We shall try.

2) We have to start somewhere, & we have. I don't see how else it can be achieved. Surely, if it were that simple, someone would have done it by now?

3) We made a mistake, I apologised immediately, as you know. Most of us have made mistakes from time to time, & me more than most. If that makes me a one-eyed donkey, point taken.

4) The day after Rob's party you & I, & Jane, met up in Brighton, even played some cash games together, sat next to each other, & chatted away merrily about this & that. You never raised these concerms then. You know my phone Number, you have rung me many times, my e-Mail, & we've exchanged dozens of PM's. If you are that worried about players concerns, or what had been said the previous evening, you were free to discuss it with me in Brighton. Many, many, players have raised questions & I have, I believe, answered every one of them, fully, openly, & honestly. We are trying to change things for the better. Is that not a good thing? I hope you will continue to debate this issue.

Take care now, & best wishes to Jane.

[tikay]

nice open post flushy... as i said in newcastle i agree with alot of what you said and to be honest have kept out of the thread as i don't want to seem as though i am "slagging" the APAT.

It is a touchy subject which seems close to many peoples hearts, and has to be looked at objectively by all parties! Remember we all want what is best for poker.

Hi Ian, nice to hear from you.

Yes, it sure is a touchy subject, judging by the tone of some Posts. But most Tourney players complain about inconsistenies in application of Rules, poor structures, structures that change mid-comp, players not being consulted, da de da de da.

Do you think that we, as the players, should do nothing, or try & bring about change?

Poker has given me so much enjoyment & fun, & I have a finite time left in the game. I'd like to help deal with some of it's problems while I am still compos mentis. Poker's popularity has exploded in the last 5 years, but we stilll have no organisation to it, players are readily exploited, & there is no mechanism or structure by which players voices can be heard in the corridors of power.

I'm getting some grief, but I think someone needs to do something, & I am prepared to stick my neck out & give it a bash. There are other, far more capable, that have not tried, & if they had, I would not have felt the need to get involved. It's not as if I have much free time to embark upon this APAT adventure, but I'm glad that I had a go. I'll probably fail, but at least I tried.

I look forward to seeing you soon.

[Gamblor21]

Hope to see you soon Tony aswell, I should be i Newcastle tomorrow for the GP sat. I said in Vegas when it all broke that i did have my reservations, but said i would wait till i saw you in person to discuss them! Tea & a Juice tomorrow my shout...

I do agree that poker players are taken advantage of, and don't get there collective voice heard at the moment, and i have some strong opinions on tournements vs the world gam. I do hope that this will be a step in the right direction... Yet do not agree with some of the opinions of the APAT. But would'nt life be boring if we all agreed!

See you tomorrow, i will be mostly winning the seat!

[tikay]

Hope to see you soon Tony aswell, I should be i Newcastle tomorrow for the GP sat. I said in Vegas when it all broke that i did have my reservations, but said i would wait till i saw you in person to discuss them! Tea & a Juice tomorrow my shout...

I do agree that poker players are taken advantage of, and don't get there collective voice heard at the moment, and i have some strong opinions on tournements vs the world gam. I do hope that this will be a step in the right direction... Yet do not agree with some of the opinions of the APAT. But would'nt life be boring if we all agreed!

See you tomorrow, i will be mostly winning the seat!

We can't expect everyone to think the same Ian. The APAT Members will have the chance to get their many & varied views organised, & their voice heard. Other folks may wish to try a different route, with a different organisation, & if it's for the betterment of our Poker Scene, Good Luck to them. Believe me, they'll need it!

Quite a few people are telling us what we cannot do. I prefer to see what we can do.

It will be a pleasure to discuss it with you when we hook up tomorrow.

We may have different views, but I know that won't alter the respect I hold you in as a player & as a guy.

[Royal Flush]

Hi James,

I hope you had an enjoyable weekend. Dealing with your questions/points in order.....

1) It's possible they'll ignore us, yes, but until we try we won't know. Why should they ignore anyone? We dealt with them, via The Broadway's Compliance Officer, & they were most helpful. I don't think the way to effect change is to give up without trying. We shall try.

2) We have to start somewhere, & we have. I don't see how else it can be achieved. Surely, if it were that simple, someone would have done it by now?

3) We made a mistake, I apologised immediately, as you know. Most of us have made mistakes from time to time, & me more than most. If that makes me a one-eyed donkey, point taken.

4) The day after Rob's party you & I, & Jane, met up in Brighton, even played some cash games together, sat next to each other, & chatted away merrily about this & that. You never raised these concerns then. You know my phone Number, you have rung me many times, my e-Mail, & we've exchanged dozens of PM's. If you are that worried about players concerns, or what had been said the previous evening, you were free to discuss it with me in Brighton. Many, many, players have raised questions & I have, I believe, answered every one of them, fully, openly, & honestly. We are trying to change things for the better. Is that not a good thing? I hope you will continue to debate this issue.

Take care now, & best wishes to Jane.

Cheers for clearing up those 3 points for me.

As for point 4:

To be honest i didn't know what to say! I was quite taken a back at Rob's party. Then back in Brighton it seemed as all was well as we discussed the muppetry of the NL table you had landed yourself in. I also don't like talking to people about stuff like that when they are playing, you were there to enjoy yourself and a game of poker rather than have a Q+A about APAT. There is a time for pleasure and a time for business, although obviously not ever being involved in running a business the one thing my father always used to say was that you should always be able to separate the two. If you couldn't then you would lose friends very quickly. The ability to be able to be locked in battle with someone over business and be able to maintain a friendships with that same person in a bar at the same time makes your life a lot less stressfull!

I know you are very passionate about APAT, as are Des and Richard, i will continue to debate the issue i just hope that it won't be taken personally! It is hard when you are that pasionate but without trying to be offensive maybe something can be learned from Tighty here who has come across as nothing but a complete professional dealing with my questions on here whilst chatting to me casually on MSN. You are lucky to have him on board!


And yes it was an excellent weekend, a couple of things happened we all wish didn't but it didn't spoil the weekend and everyone had good fun. What was amazing was that Kev was in a room with 20 pies all lined up on a table and he made no attempt to nick a single 1!!!!

I hadn't realised that the Will Hill GP sat was that close as well or i would have planned to stay up for a couple of more days, if only to be able to min raise you to death in the cash game again  

[tikay]

Hi James,

I hope you had an enjoyable weekend. Dealing with your questions/points in order.....

1) It's possible they'll ignore us, yes, but until we try we won't know. Why should they ignore anyone? We dealt with them, via The Broadway's Compliance Officer, & they were most helpful. I don't think the way to effect change is to give up without trying. We shall try.

2) We have to start somewhere, & we have. I don't see how else it can be achieved. Surely, if it were that simple, someone would have done it by now?

3) We made a mistake, I apologised immediately, as you know. Most of us have made mistakes from time to time, & me more than most. If that makes me a one-eyed donkey, point taken.

4) The day after Rob's party you & I, & Jane, met up in Brighton, even played some cash games together, sat next to each other, & chatted away merrily about this & that. You never raised these concerns then. You know my phone Number, you have rung me many times, my e-Mail, & we've exchanged dozens of PM's. If you are that worried about players concerns, or what had been said the previous evening, you were free to discuss it with me in Brighton. Many, many, players have raised questions & I have, I believe, answered every one of them, fully, openly, & honestly. We are trying to change things for the better. Is that not a good thing? I hope you will continue to debate this issue.

Take care now, & best wishes to Jane.

Cheers for clearing up those 3 points for me.

As for point 4:

To be honest i didn't know what to say! I was quite taken a back at Rob's party. Then back in Brighton it seemed as all was well as we discussed the muppetry of the NL table you had landed yourself in. I also don't like talking to people about stuff like that when they are playing, you were there to enjoy yourself and a game of poker rather than have a Q+A about APAT. There is a time for pleasure and a time for business, although obviously not ever being involved in running a business the one thing my father always used to say was that you should always be able to separate the two. If you couldn't then you would lose friends very quickly. The ability to be able to be locked in battle with someone over business and be able to maintain a friendships with that same person in a bar at the same time makes your life a lot less stressfull!

I know you are very passionate about APAT, as are Des and Richard, i will continue to debate the issue i just hope that it won't be taken personally! It is hard when you are that pasionate but without trying to be offensive maybe something can be learned from Tighty here who has come across as nothing but a complete professional dealing with my questions on here whilst chatting to me casually on MSN. You are lucky to have him on board!


And yes it was an excellent weekend, a couple of things happened we all wish didn't but it didn't spoil the weekend and everyone had good fun. What was amazing was that Kev was in a room with 20 pies all lined up on a table and he made no attempt to nick a single 1!!!!

I hadn't realised that the Will Hill GP sat was that close as well or i would have planned to stay up for a couple of more days, if only to be able to min raise you to death in the cash game again  

Well I am a retired businessman, & you are corect in your views about business & pleasure. But APAT - to me - is not business, it's pleasure (mixed with a little pain here & there). I stand to gain nothing except the satisfaction of having tried to change things for the better. Businessmen get paid, I don't. It's true I was given some shares, but I have pretty much decided to return them to APA, as some folks really think I'm doing this for personal gain, &, one by one, I'm trying to remove the problems players have with my motives.

I'd like everyone in Poker to do something for the game so many of us are passionate about. Because, then, the players would get a fair deal, & I would not have lost the respect of those who have got the wrong end of the stick.

I hope you will, if not enjoin me in working via APAT, continue to make a contribution from an independent position.

Yes, Tighty has been magnificent & I readily acknowledge, as you suggest, (without giving offence, & none taken) that he's handled the pressure extremely well, & is a better professional than me. I guess that's why he is the Media Director, but the workload is too much for one man, so I've lent a hand with the various Poker Fora feedback. I major in enthusiasm, energy, effort & endeavour, but Media skills I have none, I am just trying to help.  I don't have MSN, so that ones a bit tricky for me. Would you prefer that I left Tighty to answer your points as & when they arise? I'm cool with that if you are.

Raise me to death in the cash game again? Yes, you are far the better player James, we both know that, & you probably make a great deal more than me. I just try to enjoy myself, & I do, but most would agree, my game ain't so hot. 

I'm more than a little weary right now, with two very long days ahead of me, so I'm off to bed now.

I'm sorry you won't be at Newcastle tomorrow, we could, perhaps, have chatted on APAT. Still, it looks like young Mr Bradley will get the chance to articulate his misgivings, so that's good.

I will have limited time Online between now & Thursday, but I'm sure Tighty will be around.

Take care.

[Royal Flush]

Well I am a retired businessman, & you are corect in your views about business & pleasure. But APAT - to me - is not business, it's pleasure (mixed with a little pain here & there). I stand to gain nothing except the satisfaction of having tried to change things for the better. Businessmen get paid, I don't. It's true I was given some shares, but I have pretty much decided to return them to APA, as some folks really think I'm doing this for personal gain, &, one by one, I'm trying to remove the problems players have with my motives.

I'd like everyone in Poker to do something for the game so many of us are passionate about. Because, then, the players would get a fair deal, & I would not have lost the respect of those who have got the wrong end of the stick.

I hope you will, if not enjoin me in working via APAT, continue to make a contribution from an independent position.

Yes, Tighty has been magnificent & I readily acknowledge, as you suggest, (without giving offence, & none taken) that he's handled the pressure extremely well, & is a better professional than me. I guess that's why he is the Media Director, but the workload is too much for one man, so I've lent a hand with the various Poker Fora feedback. I major in enthusiasm, energy, effort & endeavour, but Media skills I have none, I am just trying to help.  I don't have MSN, so that ones a bit tricky for me. Would you prefer that I left Tighty to answer your points as & when they arise? I'm cool with that if you are.

Raise me to death in the cash game again? Yes, you are far the better player James, we both know that, & you probably make a great deal more than me. I just try to enjoy myself, & I do, but most would agree, my game ain't so hot. 

I'm more than a little weary right now, with two very long days ahead of me, so I'm off to bed now.

I'm sorry you won't be at Newcastle tomorrow, we could, perhaps, have chatted on APAT. Still, it looks like young Mr Bradley will get the chance to articulate his misgivings, so that's good.

I will have limited time Online between now & Thursday, but I'm sure Tighty will be around.

Take care.

Of course Tikay i understand you are not in it for the money, i meant more separating the work/job etc from the fun. If you get my drift. Of course i still want to have you reply, i just want to make sure you know its nothing personal or an attempt to slander your name! Its just an opinion on APAT, not an opinion on Tikay!

I dunno about who is the better player or who makes more, i am just damn sure i know that minimum raising every pot is a good way of getting you a little of the way toward tilting! 

Enjoy Newcaslte and make sure you re-raise Ian for me! He managed to blow a monster stack on Sunday, he really does have a special talent at that!

[BrumBilly]

Hi Tikay,

       I'm trying to remove the problems players have with my motives.

I believe it would be a mistake to give up any shares in APAT and/or alter the nature of your involvement. I really think you'd be taking stick no matter what the setup because there's so many different agendas/concerns out there.  

You CAN'T please everyone! Keep on with your 'vision' and keep any tinkering to a minimum otherwise people will be uncertain as to what they're buying into. Players will either come on board or not and sometime down the line the picture will be a lot less murky and APAT can then take stock and see where it stands and where it's going.

The idea that giving up the few shares you have will somehow end the sniping is a fallacy. IT WON'T. If you were dipping into your pocket to get this thing off the ground you'd be accused of buying influence so all you can do is hold on to the essence of your original vision and get it out there.

Didn't think I'd be posting on this thread again but had to voice my two penneth.

Best,

Will.

[BrumBilly]

Just to be clear. My post is in direct response to the line I've quoted from Tikay's post so nowt to do with 'Flushy's' Q's. If it appears that way apologies, just a matter of timing.

Will.

[ripple11]

Hi Des,
          following up your reply to Indestructable, I probably would like to see a more formal procedure as regards paying for a seat and then having to withdraw. If the event is going to be well over subscribed, could there not be system in place where you can get a refund (and let a reserve play)...say upto 72 hours beforehand?

[DesD]

Hi Des,
          following up your reply to Indestructable, I probably would like to see a more formal procedure as regards paying for a seat and then having to withdraw. If the event is going to be well over subscribed, could there not be system in place where you can get a refund (and let a reserve play)...say upto 72 hours beforehand?

Hi Ripple,

I don't think there is a need for a formal procedure as such.  In my opinion the APAT should only accept 'exceptional circumstances' as a reason for withdrawal.  To do so 72 hours before the event leaves very little time for a reserve to book travel, accomodation, time off work etc.  Pulling together a list of exceptional circumstances would be a thankless task - but I believe our members can interpret what it means.  If a case should arise I think we should leave the final discussion to the player in question and Tony & Mel.

One of the benefits that the APAT offers venues is the ability to have a clear understanding of how many players will attend, allowing them to plan their staffing with accuracy well in advance of the tournament.  This makes us an attractive proposition and offers them a sound commercial reason to concede ground to us in other areas, like rules, structures etc.  To add a caveat that the numbers might go down dilutes a strong message.

In addition we will be able to advertise final player numbers and payouts in advance of the tournament.  Small things, but unique in MTT poker.

Regards,

Des.

[Karabiner]

I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet, but if one were fortunate enough
to be allocated a seat in the draw and receive the subsequent e-mail.

Will it be possible to use Neteller in the "payment link" mentioned on APAT's website,
or is that still a little further down the line ?