Etiquette Question

[RobS]

Would be interested to hear any views on the following scenario. This occurred at the Luton Main Event last weekend.

I raised in early position. The big blind is the only caller. On the flop he checks, I check. On the turn he bets, and I call. The river goes check check. He then declares 'one pair'. I know I've won the hand as I have AK on a K high board. However, I want to see what cards he is playing with, and ask to see his hand which he is reluctant to show.

Now I last played at Luton in the Main Event of the previous festival back in April. At that time the rule was that at a showdown both hands must be shown, regardless of how the betting went, and this was strictly enforced by the dealers. This obviously appears to have been changed in the meantime. But irrespective of this, I would have thought that as my opponent in the above hand made the last betting action, that on the river he should have automoatically shown his hand 

I bear no ill feeling to my opponent in this hand, but the reason I ask is that at the time he said nothing, but five days later he has written that 'Asking to see a losing hand is the height of bad etiquette', referring directly to the above hand. Is this fair comment? I always try to conduct myself in a polite and professional manner at the table and wouldn't want to do anything that is seen as bad etiquette. I would like to know what more experienced players think of this scenario so if was out of line I don't make the same mistake in the future.

Regards

Rob

[Karabiner]

As it went check check on the river and he is first to act he is also first to show.

In any case you have every right to see his cards in a competition.

If it were a cash game, I would consider it bad form to ask to see the loser's cards.

My .

Good luck !

[Yogi-Bear]

Im of the same opinion. If it got to showdown then they should have been shown anyway. Just one of those things that differs from card room to card room, and in some places event to event.

Until everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet things like this will continue to happen up and down the country. Hymn sheet??? well it is Sunday.

~Yogi~

[jammer]

I remember this hand Rob, and as far as i could tell consensus was that you were right. Seemed just more tetchiness on his part, from what was (yourself and big bad pham aside) a table that looked like it thought the bloody sky was falling in (Why do so many players not try and enjoy the game for pete's sake?)

Nonetheless he's first to act before you and you had been calling him, just wait for him to show his hand first.

However, people not turning their hands over at the end of the final round, in a drawn out chinese standoff while the rest of the table sits bored mindless, is my current pet hate. 

[dik9]

9.01 ORDER OF SHOWDOWN.
Upon completion of action on the final betting round, the dealer shall ask the players to show their hands. If more than one player contests a pot through the final betting round, the pot will be awarded to the best hand pursuant to the rules of the game upon a showdown of hands. If there has been a bet but no raise on the final betting round, then the player who made the bet shall show his hand first, followed by other players still contesting the pot, in clockwise rotation. If there has been a bet and raise or multiple raises on the final betting round, then the person who made the final raise shall show his hand first. If there has been no bet on the final round then the showdown begins with the player who had the obligation of first action on the final betting round--the player under the gun in draw and board games or the player with the highest board in stud games.

9.02 PROBABLE WINNER AT SHOWDOWN.
In the interests of efficiency and speeding up the game, a player who is reasonably certain he has the winning hand should turn over his hand immediately, regardless of the order of showdown. If a player does so, then other players at the showdown who can beat that hand should also turn their hands over immediately.

9.08 REQUESTS TO SEE A CALLED HAND.
Players shall not be entitled to see a called hand except in cases where there is a reasonable suspicion of collusion, in which case the floorperson shall be called over for examination of the called hand. This is contrary to the traditional rule. However the traditional rule, which was designed to prevent collusion, has not served its original purpose. Asking to see called hands slows down the game, causes resentment and impedes action. In high limit games, the right to see a called hand is limited to situations where a floorperson is present for the request. The purpose of this rule is to protect against collusion, not to satisfy a player's curiosity or get a read on a player's style of play, or worst of all, to intentionally irritate a player. Abuse of this rule is very bad for poker as it kills action and causes resentment. A player who was involved on the turn may request a hand be shown, this is entirely the choice of the player involved but continuous requests to see hands shall be considered a breach of poker etiquette and may be grounds for removal from the game. There is no right to see a called losing hand under any circumstances in head's up play.

These rules are "CARO AND COOKES"

[ariston]

Dont agree with those rules at all and they are the exact opposite of the TDA rules. If I call somebody or am last to act on the river I want to see what he has been betting at me with/ what he was willing to defend his blind with- its not players curiosity it will help my future play against this player. If it means me sitting and waiting to turn my hand over in order then so be it. Poker is a game of information and how a player has bet his hand on the flop/turn/river etc is key information. Maybe he has made a semibluff on the turn with a straight/flush draw, I need to know that for the next time he makes the same move. I don't often ask to see a players cards but if I want to I should be allowed to- the phrase Ive paid for the right to see comes to mind.

[redsimon]

Would be interested to hear any views on the following scenario. This occurred at the Luton Main Event last weekend.

I raised in early position. The big blind is the only caller. On the flop he checks, I check. On the turn he bets, and I call. The river goes check check. He then declares 'one pair'. I know I've won the hand as I have AK on a K high board. However, I want to see what cards he is playing with, and ask to see his hand which he is reluctant to show.

Now I last played at Luton in the Main Event of the previous festival back in April. At that time the rule was that at a showdown both hands must be shown, regardless of how the betting went, and this was strictly enforced by the dealers. This obviously appears to have been changed in the meantime. But irrespective of this, I would have thought that as my opponent in the above hand made the last betting action, that on the river he should have automoatically shown his hand 

I bear no ill feeling to my opponent in this hand, but the reason I ask is that at the time he said nothing, but five days later he has written that 'Asking to see a losing hand is the height of bad etiquette', referring directly to the above hand. Is this fair comment? I always try to conduct myself in a polite and professional manner at the table and wouldn't want to do anything that is seen as bad etiquette. I would like to know what more experienced players think of this scenario so if was out of line I don't make the same mistake in the future.

Regards

Rob

I always thought that in tourneys both hands had to be shown to prevent chip passing etc?

[AdamM]

I think thats a regional add on mate and also pointless because cheats will then just pass chips on a different round of betting.

the way I explain betting to people when explaining the game is this. think of it as an auction or agreeing a price to continue.

1st round of betting players are agreeing a price to see the flop, then agreeing a price to see the turn, then seeing the river. to me it's logical that the final round the is agreeing the price to turn cards over.  if player 1 bets and player 2 calls they've agreed a price and both turn over. following this logic if both remaining players check player 1 must show his hand first. player 2 has not agreed any price to show cards so can muck.

[dik9]

Dont agree with those rules at all and they are the exact opposite of the TDA rules. If I call somebody or am last to act on the river I want to see what he has been betting at me with/ what he was willing to defend his blind with- its not players curiosity it will help my future play against this player. If it means me sitting and waiting to turn my hand over in order then so be it. Poker is a game of information and how a player has bet his hand on the flop/turn/river etc is key information. Maybe he has made a semibluff on the turn with a straight/flush draw, I need to know that for the next time he makes the same move. I don't often ask to see a players cards but if I want to I should be allowed to- the phrase Ive paid for the right to see comes to mind.

Ariston referring to 9.08 it is a request to see a "called" hand, if someone has bet and you have called then the caller has paid to see the bettors hand, which is as you rightly say correct.

[TightEnd]

rob.

in an otherwise excellent festival the issue you raise was one of my bug bears too. Different dealers had different interpretations of what needed to be shown at the conclusion of a hand depending on which Grosvenor they had been imported from for the week. The issue I raised after the festival about whether or not a dealer could call time on a player was also differentially applied

As we keep saying, all this highlights the need for a uniformly applied set of rules

Perhaps a start would be for all the Grosvenors to do so?

Finally, in your position I would have wanted him to show, as he declared "one pair" he has to show you one if he thinks he has a chance of winning.

Next time say "one pair" too and move to scoop the pot. Bet he shows you then!

[ariston]

Dealers calling time on a player, now there is a sore point for me. In the 1k main event at blackpool I played a hand where I raised preflop and was called by a nutter. On the flop I had a str8 flush draw and bet, called again. On the turn I bet big and was reluctantly called (I assumed he had top pair dodgy kicker) and when I missed the river I was deciding if I could get him to fold his hand. I thought for maybe a minute (I was first to act) counting my chips into different sizes to guage a reaction and the dealer said "russ you have 30 seconds to act or your hand is dead". I mucked my cards and admittedly lost it- no player had asked for a clock and it wasn't in the rules. Danny came over and calmed me down and later in the week the dealer appologised for his mistake ( I accepted the appology and theres no hard feelings). The reason I am saying this now is we have to get standardised rules. Maybe people like danny and co could get together with blonde to form these rules- I am sure if there were standardised rules casinos would use them, its just nobody can seem to be bothered doing it. Many forums have banded the idea about for a long time I think we should finally do it.

[dan]

i played at walsall last night and the dealer told a player(not me) after a while that he had 30 seconds to act. i asked who called the clock on him and he said it was a house rule that players only had 2 minutes to act

[tikay]

However, people not turning their hands over at the end of the final round, in a drawn out chinese standoff while the rest of the table sits bored mindless, is my current pet hate. 

Me too. It's the absolute height of childishness & stupidity, & it really is one of the few things that winds me up. "You have to show first", "No i don't you do".........

[TightEnd]

i played at walsall last night and the dealer told a player(not me) after a while that he had 30 seconds to act. i asked who called the clock on him and he said it was a house rule that players only had 2 minutes to act

It is at Walsall, but it isn't at the Vic or at Luton

Three Grosvenor casinos, different sets of rules...hence ambiguity, confusion and avoidable resentment

 

[RED-DOG]

We had two 5 minute+ dwels on my table at walsall, on both occasions a player had to call for the clock, which IMHO is how it should be