Etiquette Question

[BlueWolf]

i agree dealers should only clock a player if they are blatantly takin the piss ( as a certain blondite does hehehehe) we seem to ahve this discussion every 2 weeks lol

[Yogi-Bear]

2 years ago, maybe more, Grosvenor sat down to make sure that rules are the same all over Grosvenor. They wrote a set, and sent them out and everyone used them. Unfortunately I read them one way and Dani in Walsall reads them another and Jeff at the Vic yet another way. So having the same rules the country over doesnt work straight away. The people making the rules, should sit down together with people who the rules are going to be used by and for. Namely the supervisors, and the players. Ironside, IFM and myself have all said the same and there are lots of poeple who agree, However after starting a thread on it and asking higher management about it, I have been politely warned away from sitting down with other companies supervisors. There my interest waned slightly or rather I was put off. Why should I make an effort if people who I am working for can't make the same effort??? It is only going to benefit everyone, and as Grosvenor have the biggest market share at the moment surely they will benefit the most.  

So for now perhaps Grosvenor should get it's house in order. We sat down to discuss the rules at the end of last year and made several changes. We still wait for these rules to be published. And there are probably now rules that need to be changed yet again, but probably won't. SOmething needs to be done and I'm sick of defending it or hearing about it. It bores me to harp on about it yet again as I'm sure it must bore you all to read it yet again.

Rules differences in the same group are not acceptable. Let's sort it out.

~YOGI~

[RED-DOG]

we seem to ahve this discussion every 2 weeks lol

Are you timing us?

[BlueWolf]

not me no, not my job anymore lol

[TightEnd]

Rules differences in the same group are not acceptable. Let's sort it out.

this is exactly my point. Someone high up at Grosvenor....rearrange the following phrase

head out get your of your arse...

and do something!

[BlueWolf]

perhaps they just dont care? certainly looks the case

[Yogi-Bear]

It certainly feels that way to me, but I have to deal with them every day at work. Still if they aint interested they aint interested. Luckily some people are otherwise they prob wouldn't still have a business. But it's the same with all Casino groups. They are all filled with management types who are all full of their own self importance. Unfortunately the majority of these people are ex dealers with No Business skills, No People Skills, No Management Skills, just lots of experience of doing things the wrong way. Until they actually employ more managers with a clue about managing then things won't ever change.Until they actually put people in charge of areas that they understand then things won't change. And until then, the poker players amongst others will bear the brunt of the idiotic decisions made by people who have absolutely NO CLUE what is going on.


~Yogi~

[jammer]

2 years ago, maybe more, Grosvenor sat down to make sure that rules are the same all over Grosvenor. They wrote a set, and sent them out and everyone used them. Unfortunately I read them one way and Dani in Walsall reads them another and Jeff at the Vic yet another way. So having the same rules the country over doesnt work straight away. The people making the rules, should sit down together with people who the rules are going to be used by and for. Namely the supervisors, and the players. Ironside, IFM and myself have all said the same and there are lots of poeple who agree, However after starting a thread on it and asking higher management about it, I have been politely warned away from sitting down with other companies supervisors. There my interest waned slightly or rather I was put off. Why should I make an effort if people who I am working for can't make the same effort??? It is only going to benefit everyone, and as Grosvenor have the biggest market share at the moment surely they will benefit the most. 

So for now perhaps Grosvenor should get it's house in order. We sat down to discuss the rules at the end of last year and made several changes. We still wait for these rules to be published. And there are probably now rules that need to be changed yet again, but probably won't. SOmething needs to be done and I'm sick of defending it or hearing about it. It bores me to harp on about it yet again as I'm sure it must bore you all to read it yet again.

Rules differences in the same group are not acceptable. Let's sort it out.

~YOGI~

Well the steps by Grosvenor was a good start - however no set of rules will be written unambigously or perfectly on first attempt. What is required is:

1) Rules are written
2) Rules are enforced
3) The various card room managers meet up at grosvenor's behest and fine tune any areas of ambiguity on a 6 monthly basis until there is complete consensus
4) These rules can then serve as a basis set that can be picked up by other card rooms.
5) within 5 years a rock solid rule set would emerge.


However there is a distinct conflict of interests, given that card-rooms are a decidedly side issue for most casino's. In the end all they (quite understandably) care about is getting bums on seats next to the roullette and blackjack tables. Any move in the right direction should be widely praised.

[RobS]

I remember this hand Rob, and as far as i could tell consensus was that you were right. Seemed just more tetchiness on his part, from what was (yourself and big bad pham aside) a table that looked like it thought the bloody sky was falling in (Why do so many players not try and enjoy the game for pete's sake?)

Nonetheless he's first to act before you and you had been calling him, just wait for him to show his hand first.

However, people not turning their hands over at the end of the final round, in a drawn out chinese standoff while the rest of the table sits bored mindless, is my current pet hate. 

Well I don't know who you are  but I'm glad someone else who witnessed this has read my post. I completely agree with the last paragraph, at the showdown it is really irritating for everyone else at the table when someone dwells when the rules and etiquette dictate he should show his hand first. So he declared 'one pair' and clearly didn't want to show his hand unless it was the winner, and not being one to waste time I tabled my hand and at the same time asked to see his hand. If the positions had been reversed, I would have shown my hand immediately when the opponent checks behind on the river.

The main reason for me making the post, was that at the time he said nothing, and five days later he posts a comment on my blog saying the following:

"Asking to see a losing hand is the height of bad etiquette. In fact as far as I can remember you asking to see my hand in that big pot was the first time it has ever happened to me in nearly 20 years of playing poker in Europe.

You aren't going to make many friends behaving like that."

I think on reflection, and having read some opinions on here, that in fact it was my opponent who showed 'bad etiquette', and making out that I played with bad etiquette the likes of which he hasn't seen in nearly twenty years of play is bang out of order and he owes me an apology.

Anyone who has played with me would I hope vouch for my integrity, good manners and conduct at the poker table. The Main Event at Luton was my first sponsored event, and obviously to have a chance of further sponsorship it's important to conduct oneself in a proper manner, which I always strive to do. Having someone make completely unjustified attacks like this could damage my reputation and impact on any future sponsorship opportunites, hence why I am keen to clear this matter up.

I purposely avoided naming the player in question as I didn't think that who he is should have any bearing on the responses to my original post, but he is no shrinking violet and won't want to remain anonymous. In fact I'm sure he will have a lot more to say on this matter once he reads this thread. I believe he has just gone to the top of the European rankings after winning the main event in Sheffield. For that congratualtions Mr Hawkins and I look forward to reading your response to this thread.

Regards

Rob

[jbsc7769]

I thought this rule was pretty much standard everywhere, likely winner shows, if nobody does, last aggressive action has to show first. At any point a player may ask to see the "mucked" cards.

Even online poker rooms are the same. Many give you the option to muck and not show but if the other player wishes to see the hand, he can request the Hand History which will show the mucked cards of the other player.

[BlueWolf]

. Until they actually employ more managers with a clue about managing then things won't ever change.Until they actually put people in charge of areas that they understand then things won't change. And until then, the poker players amongst others will bear the brunt of the idiotic decisions made by people who have absolutely NO CLUE what is going on.


~Yogi~

see blackpool cash games for reference to above point lol

[dik9]

It certainly feels that way to me, but I have to deal with them every day at work. Still if they aint interested they aint interested. Luckily some people are otherwise they prob wouldn't still have a business. But it's the same with all Casino groups. They are all filled with management types who are all full of their own self importance. Unfortunately the majority of these people are ex dealers with No Business skills, No People Skills, No Management Skills, just lots of experience of doing things the wrong way. Until they actually employ more managers with a clue about managing then things won't ever change.Until they actually put people in charge of areas that they understand then things won't change. And until then, the poker players amongst others will bear the brunt of the idiotic decisions made by people who have absolutely NO CLUE what is going on.


~Yogi~

Yogi I sympathise completely! Maybe as card room managers we can unofficially meet up for a drink over a couple of days and thrash out controversial rulings to give players the hymn sheet to sing off, whilst we play the organ. I presume you have the right to change or ammend rules, so why can't we sit down (maybe at a poker table) and bring some order ourselves!!

[Yogi-Bear]

I can only imagine the rules we might make when On Tilt at a poker table.

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE.

Yogi

[The Camel]

Rob,

Now, I have no intention of getting into a slanging match about this. My words on your blog were probably a little too harsh and I aplogise for them. But they do reflect how angry I was about you asking to see my hand.

I was first to act. I could/should have just turned my hand up. I also hate these stand offs when neither player wants to reveal their cards. When it went check check I immediately announced "one pair". It is common (although possibly wrong) to announce a hand rather than table it. You showed your winning hand. I mucked.

It is the case in some provincial casinos all cards are tabled on showdown. I have expounded on my blog why this is wrong. This is not the case at Luton. You are entitled to see my hand but if you ask any experienced player they will tell you what terrible etiquette it is to do so. As I said, noone has ever asked me to show my hand in any case in Europe in the 15+ years I've been playing poker.

The phrase which comes to mind is "Get it quietly". I didn't say anything at the time because I didn't want to appear like a bad loser and I thought Ray Hammer's words spoke loudly enough.

It is my philosphy not to try and upset or wind up my opponents at poker. I like the game to be played with smiles, not scowls. Making someone show their hand in a situation like this is just going to upset him/her and what is the point of that?

[RobS]

Keith,

The point is that you should have showed your hand as soon as I checked the river without being prompted. I am quite offended that you have accused me of terrible etiquette here when it is quite blatant to me that it is you who was trying to shoot an angle to avoid showing the bag of spanners you had bet into me with.

If I had been the bettor and you the caller, then I would not have insisted on you showing the hand, and etiquette dictates that you can muck it. If I had asked then to see your hand I agree that would be bad etiquette. But that was not the case. You bet into me on the turn, and the river was checked down. When you declared 'one pair' I thought that was bad etiquette from yourself and you should have tabled the hand immediately.

And just one further point, I wrote that at the Luton festival in April all hands had to be shown at showdown, and this was strictly enforced by the dealers. I'm sure you will be able to remember this yourself? If one casino can't even decide what rules they want to use from month to month then these sort of disagreements will continue to happen.

Anyway I also don't wish to get into a slanging match about this. I am quite happy that some posters on this forum and your blog seem to agree with me on this matter.

Best of luck on your break from poker

Rob