Etiquette Question

[The Camel]

You are accusing me of bad etiquette and then say you don't want to get into a slanging match?

You are clearly delusional.

I admit I should have tabled my hand. But, it is not the "done thing" for you to ask to see my hand.

You made a dreadful call on the turn and got lucky. I felt aggrieved about that and then very annoyed when you rubbed salt into my wounds by asking to see my hand. Ray Hammer said at the time "You've won the hand. Isn't that enough?"

If this is the first time it has happened in 15+ years would you not agree that it is unusual?

I was in Vegas in April so don't know what happened then. With the exception of the short blonde dealer who sometimes turns all the cards over no dealer has ever exposed my hand at Luton.

You say I threaten to spoil your chances of getting sponsorship again. I reckon that a sponsor wouldn't like you to upset other players. I don't think what you did is a very good advert for the site you represented.

I absolutely guarantee that Willie Tann, DC, Julian or The Hendon Mob would NEVER have asked to see my hand in that situation. Perhaps their manners at the table is one of the very many reasons they are sponsored in the first place.

[mikkyT]

You are accusing me of bad etiquette and then say you don't want to get into a slanging match?

You are clearly delusional.

I admit I should have tabled my hand. But, it is not the "done thing" for you to ask to see my hand.

two wrongs make a right then I guess.... 

It is not the "done thing" to muck your cards in a showdown when you are first to act. However, in this case, you called your hand without turning it.

[The Camel]

When I lose it I really lose it.

I am very close to losing it now. I haven't been this angry on a poker subject for a very long time.

I would however like Dave Colclough to read the thread completely.

If he disagrees with me that Rob showed bad etiquette in asking to see my hand I will withdraw my allegations completely and unresevedly apologise.

[Robert HM]

Gents, it looks like your views are diametrically opposed. Maybe an independant arbiter would be the way forward. It's difficult to come between you two as you both have vastly more experience than me on the tables (though I have more experience at argueing than both of you    ).

What say you both PM the Blonde one, maybe via tikay, and in the meantime agree to differ?

[RobS]

You seem determined to come out of this smelling of roses but I don't see how you can. You tried to avoid showing your hand and encourage me to show mine first, even though ETIQUETTE DICTATES that you should show first. And then you decide to slaughter me in the public domain.

I really don't mind you criticising my play, in fact I find that quite interesting. I only take offense when you try to criticise my gamesmanship and manners.

It's also interesting that you can't manage to credit me with anything beyond basic thinking. My 'dreadful' call on the turn was not dreadful at all for the simple fact that when you bet, I put you on a weak holding (which is precisely what you had), with the plan of setting you in on the river if you checked to me (and I hadn't hit one of my 14 outs). As it happened I hit one of those 14 outs, however if the river had come 8, T, J, or Q I am sure you would have check-folded the best hand when I set you in.

For the benefit of others I held AK with the K of diamonds, Keith held 45s (not in diamonds), and on the turn I think the board was 9423 with 3 diamonds.

I am prepared to agree to disagree on the etiquette matter. I think basically your idea of 'etiquette' was probably right in the 90's (obviously before my time), but nowadays it is correct etiquette for, in this precise situation, you to immediately table your hand when I checked behind you on the river.

Anyway what's done is done, I bear you no ill feeling. But wouldn't it be great to get some water-tight rules applied to all cardrooms consistently in the UK and then disagreements like this wouldn't arise.

Good luck.

[tikay]

Well the water-tight rules thingy is something that you KNOW we at blonde, & the Forum Membership, are all lobbying for, & working towards.

But let's sort this other business out first, & get it put to bed. I am sending a link to this thread to Dave, to seek his comments. All being well, he will respond tonight.

Lets wait until he does, eh guys?

[RED-DOG]

I once had a dispute over a game of snooker, we couldnt agree or resolve the matter so we decided to ask a pro that we were both friends with to give his opinion, this he did, and as it happened he ruled in my favour

The other guy never spoke to him again

[tikay]

Well thanks for THAT Red........

[Royal Flush]

I understand both points of view here, just a pity how they have been put across.

Rob i think if you showed your hand first then it was bad etiquette, i also believe Keith should show first. I would have waited for him to open his hand then open mine if i wanted to see it.

[The Camel]

I understand both points of view here, just a pity how they have been put across.

Rob i think if you showed your hand first then it was bad etiquette, i also believe Keith should show first. I would have waited for him to open his hand then open mine if i wanted to see it.

Bingo!

That's exactly what should have happened if he wanted to see my hand. Although in his position I would have been more than happy to take the pot without seeing the other guys hand.

I was 99% certain I had the losing hand. That's why I didn't table it. The only hand I could beat was the bare ace and I didn't think he could call me with that (he actually called with the bare king!!!). That's why I declared one pair and prepared to muck.

You are allowed to see all cards at showdown. But, just imagine what a farce it would be if everyone decided to do just that!

[RED-DOG]

Well thanks for THAT Red........

Sorry, wasnt trying to be facetious, Its just that being the person who decides the matter isnt always the most enviable position

I'll shut up now

A bit

[elblondie]

Well I'm only throwing in my tuppence worth because I was asked. And if RED-DOG is to believed neither of you will speak to me again. Etiquette is a very hard word to spell and it's even harder to agree what comes under the umbrella.
However, If I was playing this pot in Keith's position. I would have immediately turned my cards over after the check-check action on the end. I think it is a pain in the neck when the person who should be first doesn't do this. (I consider it bad etikette)
In 20 years of poker I don't recall ever asking to see a losing hand when I have won the pot. I dont think it's nice to rub the loser's nose it. (I consider it bad etuiquet) Although of course you do have every right to annoy people if you so wish.
Personally I think you should both drop the ball as you are both acting a bit silly here. This isnt some political sitting on the fence. I genuinely believe that neither of you acted in the interests of a friendly smooth running poker game.
 

[mikkyT]

 

I'll get me coat...

[-bw-]

great reply from the Blonde one 

[Robert HM]

Well thanks for THAT Red........

I'll shut up now

I just had to see that again