Discuss - Use of Poker Tracker cheating or not ??

[dik9]

Sorry, i was just going on the theory of evolution

[M3boy]

Lively debate - as I knew it would be

[Harry Demetriou]

Had this kind of discussion many times with friends in recent years.

The problem is that different rules apply to internet play than do to live games and the dividing line appears to be what you can do to police the internet and attempts made by internet players to get an advantage over rivals.

Lets start with a live game and a simple straightforward example.

I cannot sit down at a table in a live game and have friends standing behind me sweating me and advising me on what to do when it is my turn to act. This is considered cheating.

However online I can have a room full of friends advising me but this (although ethically wrong) would not be deemed cheating as there is no way of policing it and as such would be "Acceptable."

But does this mean that anything that can't be policed is acceptable?

Certainly NOT but like in real life llet the buyer beware!

Someone having access to information that you do not have would be considered cheating. eg a friend of yours is playing omaha at the same table as you and at the same time is calling you up on his cell phone telling you what cards he has discarded. You have additional info that your rivals do not have and this is not acceptable but cannot be policed but in my opinion is definitely not acceptable.

With poker tracker everyone has access to the program or others like it so you could say that it is OK to use it to gain an advantage over rivals who do not use these programs but how would we argue that using a phone and disclosing hole cards would be acceptable as everyone is also able to do this.

I guess what I am trying to say is that because this is the intenet different application of the rules of poker apply. I would go as far as to say that because of policing/monitoring difficulties ANYTHING goes and as such if you are unhappy about it simply do not play.

Downloading any program that performs some kind of hand analysis (like poker tracker) is potentially extremely dangerous. If you can see your own hole cards on the computer screen then the program knows what your hole cards are. Problem is what happens if there is a little trojan virus or other program running in the background that sends off details of your hole cards to some other remote computer and a rival player? This certainly is unethical and cheating but you are unlikely to know it as you have already allowed your computer to lapse security wise when accessing the poker site.

Bottom line is that regardless of what you may believe is right or wrong there is a lot of money to be had in online poker and despite any and all security measures by online sites with regard to the integrity of their games there will be a lot of skull duggery going on and to be honest it isn't that difficult to get some kind of unfair advantage over opponents and as such the final answer probably lies within the moral code of each individual that participates in online poker.

Just a few of my own personal thoughts on this subjet.

[thetank]

 how would we argue that using a phone and disclosing hole cards would be acceptable as everyone is also able to do this.

The way I see it, it's not up to us to decide what is acceptable and what is not.

It's up to the individual online poker rooms, who decide the rules and lay them out in their terms and conditions of use. It's their ball and they can do what they like with it.

Comparing actions that violate these rules with actions that do not makes little sense to me. To me, it's like a discussion of the ethics of check raising, wholly ridicolous.

I don't know of any rooms, that don't not cleary define that collusion of the type you've describred is bang out of order.
People still do it, of course, but there are ways to detect them, they do get caught (and punished) sometimes.

My advice to anyone who thinks the use of pokertracker is against the ethos of some sort of poker dogma that they've conjured for themselves is simple, don't play online.

All it really is, is a program to help you make notes.

Downloading any program that performs some kind of hand analysis (like poker tracker) is potentially extremely dangerous. If you can see your own hole cards on the computer screen then the program knows what your hole cards are. Problem is what happens if there is a little trojan virus or other program running in the background that sends off details of your hole cards to some other remote computer and a rival player? This certainly is unethical and cheating but you are unlikely to know it as you have already allowed your computer to lapse security wise when accessing the poker site.

This is true, but to play online, you are also downloading Party Poker's software, or Pokerstars, or Full Tilt or Ladbrokes etc. What's to say these programs don't contain your trojan horse applications?

With a progrm such as pokertracker, owned and operated by repected persons, with a reputation of some 3/4 years trading in what is still a very young industry. I feel as safe with Pokertracker as I do with any of the major sites software themselves.

I wouldn't download any program that doesn't already have a reasonably long established reputation.

Also, its worth pointing out that you can run pokertracker on a second pc. Thus removing any such risk.

[matt674]

This is true, but to play online, you are also downloading Party Poker's software, or Pokerstars, or Full Tilt or Ladbrokes etc. What's to say these programs don't contain your trojan horse applications?

With a progrm such as pokertracker, owned and operated by repected persons, with a reputation of some 3/4 years trading in what is still a very young industry. I feel as safe with Pokertracker as I do with any of the major sites software themselves.

I wouldn't download any program that doesn't already have a reasonably long established reputation.

Also, its worth pointing out that you can run pokertracker on a second pc. Thus removing any such risk.

So what is the difference between a program that tells you things like:

"Tracking every player you have ever played against and keep detailed notes on each player. You can see how often they see the flop, raise pre-flop, check-raise, win at showdown and much more."

And a database which gives you information like players MTT winnings and losses?

[thetank]

The fundamental difference as I see it, is that
"Tracking every player you have ever played against and keep detailed notes on each player. You can see how often they see the flop, raise pre-flop, check-raise, win at showdown and much more."
Is no more information than would be available to you anyway, from the natural course of playing the game. If you were so inclined, all the info pokertracker gets you, you could get yourself with (albeit extensive) note making.

A database that gives information like MTT players winnings and losses would not be freely available to you during the natural course of playing the game.

Winnings only, all fine and good as far as I can see. After all, the same facility is available for live poker with all-time money lists and the like.

As I've said though, it's not up to me to make the distinctions. If a poker sites T&Cs are fine with it, then I'm fine with it. If I wasn't, I wouldn't play.

[matt674]

The fundamental difference as I see it, is that
"Tracking every player you have ever played against and keep detailed notes on each player. You can see how often they see the flop, raise pre-flop, check-raise, win at showdown and much more."
Is no more information than would be available to you anyway, from the natural course of playing the game. If you were so inclined, all the info pokertracker gets you, you could get yourself with (albeit extensive) note making.

A database that gives information like MTT players winnings and losses would not be freely available to you during the natural course of playing the game.

Winnings only, all fine and good as far as I can see. After all, the same facility is available for live poker with all-time money lists and the like.

As I've said though, it's not up to me to make the distinctions. If a poker sites T&Cs are fine with it, then I'm fine with it. If I wasn't, I wouldn't play.

And do you honestly think that you would have the time to take the hand histories from a two hour cash game session where you were playing 3 tables simultaneously and then make a note of every bet from every player, every check raise, every showdown etc. etc? It would take you so long that you would hardly end up playing poker.

so the solution - get a program to collate all the information for you.

Tournament histories are freely available from some sites - allowing you to see the results of any tournament you wish to see the results for. This history gives you not only the names of the people who cashed in the tournament but also those who finished outside the money. Again if you so wished you could take the time of noting not only how much money people were winning when they cashed but also how much they were losing when they didnt. Again this would take so long that you would hardly end up playing poker.

so the solution - get a program to collate all the imformation for you.

In my opinion they are either both cheating or they are both acceptable but i dont see how you can say one is and the other isn't. As you say at the end of the day the decision lies with the site, if they say it is acceptable then we live by their rules.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Harry

PokerTracker doesn't 'look' at your hole cards in the way you describe.  It obtains its information from the hand histories which the site provides (most site nowadays have the option to write these onto your hard drive).

There are some applications (probably most of them against the T&Cs of the sites) which get information via 'screen scraping'.  These, to me, do not use widely available information and so are much closer to contravening the ethics of online play.

As to the issue of people communicating via MSN, this should be easily detectable by the sites if they are looking for instances where groups of players are constantly sitting down at the same tables as each other.  Provided this is flagged up, the sites should be able to identify collusion via the relative plays made by the two.

One of the methods used by some sites nowadays is to scan your own screen when their software is open (effectively they have the function to screenscrape you!)  I have always been uneasy with this on general privacy principles but it is a valid way of detecting some forms of cheating and you can do nothing to prevent it as the right for them to do this is in their T&Cs.  Party definitely uses this functionality as there have been threads on 2+2 where players have received warnings that illegal software is being used - triggered by a cookie left by one of the illegal, pay for datamined information, websites.

The ways in which the sites have reacted to these threats is interesting too.  Stars have basically been guided by what they can and can't detect and take action against (much in line with your own argument on the differences between live and online games).  Party have, at various stages, acted to clamp down on one form of software or other and have ended up being vague and inconsistent about what is and isn't allowed (at one point there were threads on 2+2 showing people receiving different answers to the same question on the issue from Customer Support).

The biggest issue for me is that the IT literate can find ways to circumvent the need for hand histories to obtain information and the products they come up with have the potential to be very slick and powerful.  Personally, I would draw the 'legal' line at anything which doesn't use publicly available information, such as hand histories, and which doesn't take any action to advise or act on the players behalf.  PT falls within the legal category on this basis, hence my support of it, most of the other products out there go beyond this.

Sheriff

[thetank]

 i dont see how you can say one is and the other isn't.

I don't see how I can say either is cheating or not. I aint now, and am not likely to be in the future, the author of terms and conditions for poker sites. I just abide by them.

Anyway, last time I checked, Pokerstars don't mind you using thepokerdb.com. 

[dik9]

At the moment I work as a collusion monitor for a network, I am not allowed to play on these sites, because of the information I have on their players. If you personally track one player, you would have the same info as me, but it is physically impossible to do this. Why should I therefore be disallowed to play? The only advantage i would get, is that I know who is under suspicion for collusion, and would avoid those tables?

[thetank]

 Why should I therefore be disallowed to play?

Coz your bosses said so.

An employee of a casino in the UK, as I understand, isn't allowed to punt in one.
Many barman arn't allowed to drink in the pub they work when they're off duty, coz their boss doesn't allow it.

I see it more as being about professionalism and the avoidance of appearance of impropriety, rather than actual impropriety.

Anyway, using software to track stats of players in games you arn't in is akin to using a database service, and most sites have programs such as these on their banned list.

[matt674]

 i dont see how you can say one is and the other isn't.

I don't see how I can say either is cheating or not. I aint now, and am not likely to be in the future, the author of terms and conditions for poker sites. I just abide by them.

Anyway, last time I checked, Pokerstars don't mind you using thepokerdb.com. 

apologies for misunderstanding - that was the impression i got from reading your posts.

[SupaMonkey]

PT, pen & paper and your memory are all methods of note taking with different efficiences. Managers will tell you that your memory is just poorly kept records. So i don't mind people using PT but i think it is ethincally wrong to do it when you aren't at the table.

I did use PT with Ub but i didn't like it so i ditched it (i hardly ever play cash though). How do people who use think it affects their live game, i.e. when they don't have it? I think watching your opponents and making plays based on what you see is a skill that needs to be practiced so PT could harm your live game.

[Harry Demetriou]

Harry

PokerTracker doesn't 'look' at your hole cards in the way you describe.  It obtains its information from the hand histories which the site provides (most site nowadays have the option to write these onto your hard drive).

I am not specifically adressing poker tracker but was talking generically about Poker Tracker along with other similar types of software available. IMO they all come under the same umbrella as tech aids. SOme programs give you eprcentage chances of winning with your starting hand depending on your position whilst other programs play for you.

Poker tracker may not look at your hands but many others do.


There are some applications (probably most of them against the T&Cs of the sites) which get information via 'screen scraping'.  These, to me, do not use widely available information and so are much closer to contravening the ethics of online play.

But where do we draw the line at which programs are acceptable and which are not?

As for MSN it really doesn't matter because I referred to Cell Phone use and there's also Skype and noo matter which method you use there will always be another one that the sites cannot monitor. However even with the monitoring of things like MSN very few have been punished and not everyone is that stupid as to use something that can so easily be monitored.

One of the methods used by some sites nowadays is to scan your own screen when their software is open (effectively they have the function to screenscrape you!)  I have always been uneasy with this on general privacy principles but it is a valid way of detecting some forms of cheating and you can do nothing to prevent it as the right for them to do this is in their T&Cs.  Party definitely uses this functionality as there have been threads on 2+2 where players have received warnings that illegal software is being used - triggered by a cookie left by one of the illegal, pay for datamined information, websites.
The ways in which the sites have reacted to these threats is interesting too.  Stars have basically been guided by what they can and can't detect and take action against (much in line with your own argument on the differences between live and online games).  Party have, at various stages, acted to clamp down on one form of software or other and have ended up being vague and inconsistent about what is and isn't allowed (at one point there were threads on 2+2 showing people receiving different answers to the same question on the issue from Customer Support).

Inconsistent reactions by sites is very worrying and begs the question of how seriously they take online cheating. Maybe they suffer from the same problem as this debate - namely what defines cheating and what is and is not acceptable.

The biggest issue for me is that the IT literate can find ways to circumvent the need for hand histories to obtain information and the products they come up with have the potential to be very slick and powerful.  Personally, I would draw the 'legal' line at anything which doesn't use publicly available information, such as hand histories, and which doesn't take any action to advise or act on the players behalf.  PT falls within the legal category on this basis, hence my support of it, most of the other products out there go beyond this.

A never ending problem -there will always be more technically gifted individuals out there who  as a consequence will have an advantage (fair or otherwise) over their rivals but I have little doubt that there are programs out there that are being used to make significant financial gain against opponents who are none the wiser.

There was also that recent case of software that was reading username and passwoird details and sending them remotely to others from various sites and that information was used to raid peoples accounts by chip dumping against others. Highly illegal but that was from a reputable/established software firm. (How you cash otu is another story but obviously someone managed it successfully). The point is that whetehr its poker tracker or a small independant site you never know what else might be includied in the software and to be super safe you simply shouldn't download it.

Perhaps I am paranoid but I have some friends who are very high tech experts in programming and computer geniuses. They assure me it would not be too difficult to write a program that would infect the whole internet in the way a trojan virus would but it would do absolutely no damage to your computer. All it would do would be to look and identify poker players hole cards and relay them back to a central place from which great financial advantage could be taken of online players. No doubt some sites would detect this but I would bet that many wouldn't.

A bit far fetched? maybe but perhaps I should get one of them to try this as an exercise just to see if it could be done.

The problem is that should it succeed I might just be tempted to keep quiet about it all.

[matt674]

The problem is that should it succeed I might just be tempted to keep quiet about it all.

But we will know when you stop making statements like this........

I think there are a lot of fabulous young players around and I would be queing up to back them except that they are all probably better than me and making zillions already on the internet - haven't quite personally mastered winning consistently on the net yet:-(

Unless this is part of an elaborate bluff to cover up the fact that you already have the software