boxing / safety

[AdamM]

I watched Matthew Macklin fight Jamie Moore last night for the British Light Middleweight title. in the 10th rounds, after a good fight and a brutal 9th round, Macklin took a punch that knocked him out cold. After 15+ mins of attention from paramedics he was taken to hospital. I'm struggling to find any upto date info but hopefuly it's just (?) concusion and not more career / life threatening.

Many years ago boxing used to be 15 rounds and it was reduced on safety grounds. Should it be reduced further still?

Look at UFC as a comparison. their bouts are 3x5 min rounds. championship bouts are 5x5 min bouts. There's never been a serious injury in UFC, let alone a death. even in the old days when there were no rules (except no biting or eye gouging but they were more like guidelines than RULES). even in the modern UFC, fighters only wear light 8oz MMA gloves. The big difference with the gloves is that 16oz boxing gloves spread the impact over a large area, giving a clubbing effect. Damage done is mostly internal and KOs tend to be from brain trauma. the MMA gloves do just enough to stop knuckles shattering. the effect is much closer to being hit bare knuckled. the big differnce is that good strikers aim for specific targets with their middle knuckle and KO's are less to do with Brain trauma and more to to with hitting these sweet spots. they are also able to strike with unpadded knees and elbows and can punch from a full mount position. as I said, with all this in mind, there's never been a serious injury in the UFC

most other martial art sports rarely compete over more than 3 rounds. I'm not saying 3 rounds for boxing. I do think that 6 rounds is plenty though. Obviously there'd be more judges decisions but I'd be happy with that. After 6 rounds the losing boxer is far more able to at least effectively guard and defend. I know there have been some amazing fights that've gone 10+ rounds but before there's another death in the ring would it not be better to reduce the length of fights?

comments from fight fans?

[Karabiner]

I saw that KO and found it truly chilling. One reason why I hardly ever watch boxing any more.

I've not heard any updates on the guy's condition either which is probably a good sign. Let's hope so.

[Rooky9]

I think there are two major differences in the hitting in boxing and UFC...

firstly boxing has (generally) a far higher punch frequency than UFC
secondly in UFc they can protect themselves far better... holding opponents to prevent a full force punch.

Fact of the matter with boxing is that is you get hit with force repetitively then your body with shut down. It wasn't nice seeing last nights situation, but I think these kind of things are less frequent than they used to be.

[bolt pp]

What a fight it was, great stuff, its what boxings all about.

Karabiner you say this is one of the reasons you hardly ever watch boxing any more but when did you enjoy watching boxing?

the 40 round fights of the 50s where you could still punch an opponent until he was layed out, the 15 round fights of the 60s and 70s where there was still very little referee intervention and limited medical help available, or the Tyson era where he knocked everything out that moved?

[brad.strider]

i liked the rocky balbao era were all punches sounded like BOOF, BOOF

[BrumBilly]

Thought provoking post. Thanks.

I think there's an argument for longer fights. The best boxer/fighter isn't necessarily the quickest starter and some of the best fights are those that have ebbed and flowed with boxers taking the initiative from each other and 'thinking' on their feet (adapting their fight plan in light of the situation on the ground). I don't watch much boxing these days but that's a matter of access rather than anything else (despite the sorry situation that is the heavyweight division).

As far as boxers getting hurt. I think a lot of the punishment and damage that boxers experience is down to poor management and incompetent refereeing. The amount of one-sided fights with boxers taking a needless beating is a joke.

That's a strong point you make regarding the various types of glove used in the combat sports. I'm guessing the oversized gloves in boxing are designed to reduce the risk of fight stopping cuts (not sure tho). I agree that the use of UFC type gloves would lead to fewer knock outs but that'd probably be offset by an increase in severe cuts and facial injuries.

This promts a question on hand injuries. Does the use of bigger gloves encourage 'harder hitting' and increase hand injuries (or is that idea off the mark...just thinking out loud here but interested to see if there'a a parallel between the hitting here and the tackling in NFL vs Rugby League) .

p.s. Didin't see the fight referred to in the OP but hope the injury wasn't as serious as it sounded.

[AndrewT]

This promts a question on hand injuries. Does the use of bigger gloves encourage 'harder hitting' and increase hand injuries (or is that idea off the mark...just thinking out loud here but interested to see if there'a a parallel between the hitting here and the tackling in NFL vs Rugby League) .

The supersized oven gloves that are used in boxing do allow harder hitting. They also allow the punchee to take more punishment before they get cut. Also, the punch which actually has the greatest risk of causing brain damage is a hook which violently rotates the head and rotates the brain within the skull - this leads to ruptures within the brain as it is 'torn from its moorings'. The big glove, with a greater surface area, and more force behind it does more damage with this type of punch. Oddly, this is also an argument against the headguards that the amateurs use.

I agree with AdamM that boxing should seriously consider switching to the lighter gloves.

[AdamM]

UFC fighters often break their hands in a fight, but then so do boxers. Boxers generally punch harder than UFC Fighters probably down to a combination of the extra protection the gloves give and also the obvious fact that they focus more of their training on punching. as I said, although the lb/sq" power will be more the knockout frequncy doesn't equate because the impact spreads and the damage is done internally. KOs in the octagon are 'flash knockouts' rather than concusion.

UFC bouts are sometimes extremely bloody and if the cut isn't interfering with vision it's pretty much never stopped, no matter how much blood is spread over the fighters and canvas. when fighters are on the ground and the crown / forehead are cut it'll be squirting everywhere but the fight will continue. pretty unpleasant to watch. however, there is no count. Bang, down, jump on top. the fighter punched has about 5/10 seconds to gather enough senses to grab hold of their opponent and stiffle the attack or it's over. that's the big difference. obviously that wouldn't work in boxing. The UFC fight isn't stopped because they can't recover from a punch. it's stopped because in the time that a boxer would be taking a standing 8 count a UFC opponent would still be punching the downed opponent or cranking an arm/leg/neck. a boxer is allowed to gather themselves and get knocked down again and again.

I would say to any boxers / boxing fans reading, I'm not criticising boxing. I'm a fan myself. It's not common knowledge that Bruce Lee considered Western Boxing to be one of the most effective martial arts he's ever trained in and to this day his system teaches beginners in three ranges: Short-ju jitsu / long-sticks & middle-boxing. It's also not common knowledge tha Ali trained with Bruce and was happy to admit that in a non refereed fight, he would't have been the favourite.

the two things that sets boxing aside from most other martial arts is:
a) they train much harder than your average martial artist. That's why the modern UFC or similar fighter is so good. they're training like boxers.
b) The set up of the bouts is focused almost entirely on the spectacle at the expense of the fighters. Martial arts is about the combat first and the spectacle second. or at least it should be. look at olympic Tae Kwon Do to see how that can go wrong.

a UFC champion can fight more often than a top boxer. the four main champs at the minute will each defend their title 3 or 4 times a year and do so at 100% fitness. I doubt a boxing champ could do that.

looking forward to Calzaghe on saturday. great fighter.

[kinboshi]

I love boxing.  Definitely a tough sport, and there are the occasional bad injuries and even fatalities.

But there are more dangerous sports.  Showjumping for one.  More people die or receive serious injuries jumping over fences on horses than do in a boxing ring.

There is definitely an argument for smaller gloves though. 

[bolt pp]

I love boxing.  Definitely a tough sport, and there are the occasional bad injuries and even fatalities.

But there are more dangerous sports.  Showjumping for one.  More people die or receive serious injuries jumping over fences on horses than do in a boxing ring.

There is definitely an argument for smaller gloves though. 

you should see the eye related injuries of tiddlywinks, brutal!!!!

[BrumBilly]

Great posts...appreciated!

[lvlarc_uk]

Reducing the number of rounds would only further kill the sport of boxing. It's the commissions that have to be cleaned up, that also allow fighters to fight when they don't make weight which happens more and more over Asia. Fighters
 are also burning themselves to bone to make the weight these days just a day before the fight, weigh-ins should be altered.

[kinboshi]

Reducing the number of rounds would only further kill the sport of boxing. It's the commissions that have to be cleaned up, that also allow fighters to fight when they don't make weight which happens more and more over Asia. Fighters
 are also burning themselves to bone to make the weight these days just a day before the fight, weigh-ins should be altered.

They have tried to improve the weigh-in procedure, but you're right - it needs further work. 

Boxers need to be weighed periodically during the build up to a fight, and must stay within certain limits.  This is difficult for those that get called up last minute, but if they get called up for a fight at say welterweight - they should have been training and be within the limits set for a welterweight - otherwise they aren't fit to fight.

The problem is money.  The alphabet soup of organisations involved in boxing are unlikely to come to an agreement that potentially jeopardises big money fights.

Looking forward to Calzaghe's fight on Saturday though. 

[AdamM]

reading up, the official UFC gloves are 4oz-6oz. around 1/3 the weight of boxing gloves.

Weigh ins is an excellent point. fighters should be weighed every day the week of a title fight including the day of the fight. Ricky Hatton for example weighs in at 10 1/2 st but will be between 11 1/2 and 12 st when he fights. that's very common. Calzaghe would have been over 13st on saturday night, not the 12st on the card.

It's a shame the organisations couldn't get together and unify but it's a bit too political for that. what other sport can there be 6 world champions in?