Playing ‘Monster’ draws in NL holdem

[MrSpeed]

I have a couple of hand history’s that I think could help myself and other members of the forum in how they should play monster draws on the flop/turn in no-limit holdem. I and I’m sure others would be grateful for any thoughts on this subject.

For all these examples, we shall assume a cash game (or early slow-structure tournament) situation, i.e. 100+BB’s.
 
Case 1: 
hand KdJd. 6-max NL holdem. $50 NL. Currently 2 stacks deep (200+BB’s = $110) after winning several large pots. I had been playing tight and have only shown down large (mostly winning) hands. The table is generally weak with pretty much ABC poker on display.

In this case I limped in second position. (As I said my table was weak with a lot of flops multi way, 70+% when I joined the table. Therefore I’m looking to flop big and get paid off.) The cutoff limps along with the button raising to 4xBB. The BB calls and so do myself and the button.
Now the flop. -Js-Td. I am now in the position of having a good ‘drawing’ hand out of position against the preflop raiser.

What is my best course of action?

In this instance I check raised, this lets me see the action of the other 2 limpers without putting in anymore money. I am most fearful of someone who has flopped the str8. The pfr makes a 2/3 pot bet, $5 into 8. I know he would do this with most hands and fold KK,QQ and any weak A to a check raise. I now raise to 15, with the result being he shoves leaving me 20 to call with. I am clearly getting good odds and call. He shows AcQc,. My check raise represents a bigger hand and I feel his all in with only top pair is bad against most hands I’d make this move with. 

Any suggestions on where I went wrong? If at all. Please ignore for the time being whether or not the preflop call was correct. 
Also, what is the best way to play str8 flush draws on A high flops against people you suspect will call all-in with any A? i.e. TsJs on Ad9s8s flop…



Case 2:
Similar situations to before. hand AhKh utg. $50 NL. Some time later in the session I am on a new ‘good’ table with a donator/fish 2 to my left. His play is weak/calling station, having doubled up thro him regaining back my earlier losses. The BB has just reloaded after being all in preflop with 88 against the tightest player at the table who had AA (raise, reraise, re-reraise, all in, called with 88).

In this case I raise to 4xBB=$2 and get 2 callers, the button (donator) and the BB (88 maniac). The flop comes -Qh-Th. Yip, I’ve flopped the royal flush draw again.

The BB leads out for ½ pot, $3 into 6. I raise to 8, the button goes all in for 2 more (he could have anything from KKK to lone J as he never raises preflop). The BB now min raises (this could be a sign of trouble however he did it twice against AA preflop and still called the allin). I am thus less likely to believe him. He may have anything from top pair with str8 draw, 2 pair or bad K…or of course the nuts.

What is my best course of action?

In this case I shove all in, in effect putting the BB all-in. The BB calls all-in for his last 35 and shows AsJs for the flopped nuts.  The button shows JJ for open-ended str8 draw.
Did I play this hand wrong on the flop. I feel if I call and miss the turn I may fold my top pair top kicker (which could be winning on its own) to his turn bet.

Any suggestions on where I went wrong? If at all.

Note: I lost both hands when the turn and river were blanks in both cases. However, I’d be interested to know if my play was correct irrespective of the outcome.
In retrospect I was 48% to win the 1st case and ?% to win the 2nd case.

I’d also be interested in the thoughts people had when playing even deeper. Say against another big stack with 200-300 BB’s.

thx,
Mr Speed.

[fergus8]

just stop n go

[SupaMonkey]

In this instance I check raised, this lets me see the action of the other 2 limpers without putting in anymore money. I am most fearful of someone who has flopped the str8. The pfr makes a 2/3 pot bet. I know he would do this with most hands and fold KK,QQ and any weak A to a check raise. I now raise to 15, with the result being he shoves leaving me 20 to call with.

Preflop there is 17 in the pot, now he makes a 2/3rds bet (=11 approx) and you raise to 15? This doesn't seem to make sense.

How much did the cutoff have in this hand? If he had a similar amount to the button then i would raise enough to put the button in straight away.

[MrsLime]

hand KdJd. 6-max NL holdem. Currently 2 stacks deep (200+BB’s)
[...]
In this case I limped in second position. (As I said my table was weak with a lot of flops multi way, 70+% when I joined the table. Therefore I’m looking to flop big and get paid off.) The cutoff limps along with the button raising to 4xBB. The BB calls and so do myself and the button.
[...]
In this instance I check raised, this lets me see the action of the other 2 limpers without putting in anymore money. I am most fearful of someone who has flopped the str8. The pfr makes a 2/3 pot bet. I know he would do this with most hands and fold KK,QQ and any weak A to a check raise. I now raise to 15, with the result being he shoves leaving me 20 to call with.

I am confused as to the size of the bets here.  You started off talking like "4xBB" but ended talking "15" and "20" via "2/3 pot".  Are those dollars or big bets or what?  Choose one unit or the other, but not both, or all three, please.  How much is the BB?  Please rewrite the whole post.

[Table Manners]

I love these hand soooooooo much. You've got to be prepared for the fact that you might get stacked with them, but your expected return is usually pretty hefty.

I like to pretend I've flopped a set or something else big, but I'm scared of the draws. So I'll usually bet out to begin with. If I get raised, I return with an big re-raise. At this point, most people will usually lay down a decent top pair or even 2 pair, in which case you've scooped a pretty big pot uncontested. But if they do call/raise you can still put your chips in knowing you've got stacks of outs. So each time you get called, you're ev will be closed to 0, but it's all the uncontested pots you'll win out of these hands that really make them profitable.

I think you played them both ok. In the first one you could have done with a bit more aggression I think. Maybe bet out originally, because a bet - re-raise looks stronger than a check-raise, thus I think you're more likely to get the top pair to fold. Plus I think you've got to bet bigger.

In the second one, I think I would have played it exactly the same. It's a shame that only your flush draw was live, but that's still 1/3 to win, so (although I haven't actually done the number crunching) I think your ev is still about 0.

I suppose you've just gotta have the bank roll to deal with getting called and missing these hands though.

[MrSpeed]

Tried to add some more information to my original post. Hope this helps.

Really shouldn't have written the post in work. 

spend most of the day thinking about poker anyway...lol. 

Thanks for the comments so far!

MrSpeed

[totalise]

MrSpeed

When I have a big draw that I am happy to put money in the pot with, i generally take into account the stack sizes and try to manipulate the betting so that it is my final bet that is going into the pot first, not calling off the chips:

as an illustrative point:

you have $50.. blinds are $1/2... pot is $12, you have the big draw, you can check, he bets $10 and then you can push for $30/$40 more. If you lead, he pushes and you end up calling of your stack

same blinds, your stack is $200. Pot is $12. You can lead for $12, he riases it up to $40 or so, and then you push. again, its trying to ensure that you are the one putting the final bet into the pot, part of the equity in big draws is their power of semi-bluffing, if you check call your chips off, you dont let them fold.. so you have to them hit to win, which you will do a goodly % of the time, but given dead money in the pot, you generally want to take it down without a showdown

If you are very deep then you can do all sorts depending on the player.

Now, obviously against certain people that will pay you off if you make your draw, you have no need to get your chips in the pot so quickly, as you figure to make the same if you hit, and lose less when you miss. You should also be cagey against people that you think aren't folding, because if there is zero chance of them folding, then you are going to showdown with a hand this is around 50% to win, which is ok, you make more money playing then folding, but it probably doesn't maxmize your equity in a given hand.

Also you should try and make sure to do the same with your big hands, playing sets like this always lets the other person "put you on a draw" and make scandelous calls. You naturally do this because if you play your draws fast and you made hands slower, you would get figured out quite easily.

I dont much know how this post relates to your hands actually, but it probably has some bearing.

[MrSpeed]

Thanks Table Manners and Totalise. Good posts!

I can see the benefits in manipulating the size of your bets so you don't have to call off your chips - when on a large draw. Obv the opposite is true when you know/think u have the best hand - then you don't mind calling.

Not a problem for my bankroll TM, thats one thing i'm pretty good with. Lots of buy-ins spare to deal with variance. just wasn't sure of the 'correct' way to play this sort of hand.   

I do try to play a lot of my big hands as if draws - when a draw is there. I suppose again its a case of trying to sell the story with your bet sizes. and how you have played previous hands!

As for draws with 50% chance of winning when you know you are getting called. I'm beginning to think against true calling stations it can be best to lay these down. Against such players it can usually be best to wait for a better situation. However, sometimes you lose the race to get their chips that way!

Thanks again,
MrSpeed.