Opinions - What do you think of this ruling?

[TightEnd]

Surely the dealer should have said something aswell instead of letting this happen!!

its a self deal comp

[rudders]

if you announce raise, put in your call then whilst thinking there are more than 3 folders- you should be restricted to min raise ( certainly not folded). Whilst the folders are wrong (domino effect does occur) you do have a respnsibility to "protect your raise" if you dont apply this rule then the raiser can allow folds to occur gaining an unfair advantage over others yet to act- ie can modify his raise as less people to act.

 Incidently this happened on the bubble in aruba- and jack mcclelland ( think this is his name) the  tourny director made this ruling.All very heated but confirmed after by a number of knowledgeable players/ administrators. ( I thought it was wrong initially but can see the sense of it)

[mikkyT]

if you announce raise, put in your call then whilst thinking there are more than 3 folders- you should be restricted to min raise ( certainly not folded). Whilst the folders are wrong (domino effect does occur) you do have a respnsibility to "protect your raise" if you dont apply this rule then the raiser can allow folds to occur gaining an unfair advantage over others yet to act- ie can modify his raise as less people to act.

 Incidently this happened on the bubble in aruba- and jack mcclelland ( think this is his name) the  tourny director made this ruling.All very heated but confirmed after by a number of knowledgeable players/ administrators. ( I thought it was wrong initially but can see the sense of it)

Why? You have verbally indicated your intent to raise. Maybe its a throw back to lots of pot limit comps being the norm in the UK, but usually players will put their call part of the bet in first to determine the size of the pot to subsequently raise.

Slightly off track but when I'm playing pot limit, and I bet the pot. I say raise, put my call in, then say pot. Then the dealer counts the pot total and I put the chippies in.

[Royal Flush]

Slightly off track but when I'm playing pot limit, and I bet the pot. I say raise, put my call in, then say pot. Then the dealer counts the pot total and I put the chippies in.

Any dealer should know what pot will be when its your go to act, all this "put the call in first" lark is BS. To be honest any player should aswell!!!

Anyway Mikky you dont seem to get the point, if i am in MP and i say raise, then the next 3 fold leaving me just the blinds, i can now raise less than i was going to as i have basically nicked position!

[JungleCat03]

Slightly off track but when I'm playing pot limit, and I bet the pot. I say raise, put my call in, then say pot. Then the dealer counts the pot total and I put the chippies in.

Any dealer should know what pot will be when its your go to act, all this "put the call in first" lark is BS. To be honest any player should aswell!!!

Anyway Mikky you dont seem to get the point, if i am in MP and i say raise, then the next 3 fold leaving me just the blinds, i can now raise less than i was going to as i have basically nicked position!

Yes you should be horsewhipped for orchestrating three people to fold out of turn.

Oh no wait, you did nothing wrong. So you gain a marginal advantage because three people nothing to do with you weren't paying attention. Tough.

You are more disadvantaged by having your raise restricted than you are advantaged by knowing that the three people next to you weren't going to play their cards to a raise in my view.
 
If anyone should be punished, it should be the people acting out of turn, in particular the one to the raiser's left. I think it's impractical to deduct chips/ sinbin them and perhaps a tad over the top, but they could be forced to wear a cap saying "I'm a nobhead who acts out of turn" for a round. This will work as a deterrent for most (not all) people.

This rule is far more mature and apt than the one in place.

[thetank]

If anyone should be punished, it should be the people acting out of turn, in particular the one to the raiser's left. I think it's impractical to deduct chips/ sinbin them and perhaps a tad over the top, but they could be forced to wear a cap saying "I'm a nobhead who acts out of turn" for a round. This will work as a deterrent for most (not all) people.

This rule is far more mature and apt than the one in place.

In all seriousness, I think that's the best suggestion I've heard on this issue.

[Royal Flush]

If anyone should be punished

This is not school! The rules are no there to punish people they are there to keep the game fair! Yes it may not be your fault, but you have gained from this, this has to be leveled out, this i imagine is the only way to do it.

Now i agree those who pass out of turn should be warned, my real pet hate is people looking at their cards and say passing on the button as they run out for a cig, this should incur a time penalty IMO.

[thetank]

Now i agree those who pass out of turn should be warned, my real pet hate is people looking at their cards and say passing on the button as they run out for a cig, this should incur a time penalty IMO.

I agree, anyone leaving the table for a ciggy, shouldnt be allowed back for at least 3 minutes

[JungleCat03]

If anyone should be punished

This is not school! The rules are no there to punish people they are there to keep the game fair! Yes it may not be your fault, but you have gained from this, this has to be leveled out, this i imagine is the only way to do it.

Now i agree those who pass out of turn should be warned, my real pet hate is people looking at their cards and say passing on the button as they run out for a cig, this should incur a time penalty IMO.

I realise that the hurt from being used as your prefect's toastrack for so many years still cuts deep flushie but punishment is not the sole tenure of schools.

It occurs in poker in many instances and in fact in your post, you specify a punishment that you think should take place!

Swear in a comp, expose your cards, put your hand in the muck before a hand is finished, act out of turn, string bet, collude, cheat in some other way.......all these are examples of actions that are punished in particular places. 

In this particular example, the person being DISADVANTAGED ( i've used this word to forestall any further emotional reaction you might have to the word punishment) is the person who has not made any mistake or sought to get any advantage.

That he has incidentally been handed a slight advantage by the mistakes of others is not a reason to now not only remove that advantage but DISADVANTAGE him further. Yes he gains slightly by having foreknowledge that the three people to his left will fold.

But it is a much bigger disadvantage that he has his raising ability crippled as he is tied to a particular raise or has his hand killed.

THAT's not fair.

[Karabiner]

I can only think that this original rule about three people passing would be to prevent someone hiding their cards until others have acted thus gaining an unfair advantage. Perhaps in the early days of the cardroom some people used to try this on and therefore this "rule" was implemented.

Rather like the "betting out of turn" stroke that quite a few used to pull when a bet out of turn did not go. They would deliberately bet out of turn feigning strength trying to induce players acting before them to check.

[rudders]

 
In this particular example, the person being DISADVANTAGED ( i've used this word to forestall any further emotional reaction you might have to the word punishment) is the person who has not made any mistake or sought to get any advantage.

That he has incidentally been handed a slight advantage by the mistakes of others is not a reason to now not only remove that advantage but DISADVANTAGE him further. Yes he gains slightly by having foreknowledge that the three people to his left will fold.

But it is a much bigger disadvantage that he has his raising ability crippled as he is tied to a particular raise or has his hand killed.

THAT's not fair.


[/quote]


more than a slight advantage in a lot of situations-also I agree that initial folder is  main problem- but like I said you have a resonsibility to protect your raise. you will not have a problem about having your raise limited if you do this- ie take some responsibility for your own actiion (ie your raise) rather than complaining when you dont and you have price to pay.....

[Royal Flush]

more than a slight advantage in a lot of situations-also I agree that initial folder is  main problem- but like I said you have a resonsibility to protect your raise. you will not have a problem about having your raise limited if you do this- ie take some responsibility for your own actiion (ie your raise) rather than complaining when you dont and you have price to pay.....

Exactly, you should stop the people passing out of turn.

[thetank]

One Word - "Oi"

all it needs.

[Rod Paradise]

I realise that the hurt from being used as your prefect's toastrack for so many years still cuts deep flushie but punishment is not the sole tenure of schools.

[mikkyT]

In this particular example, the person being DISADVANTAGED ( i've used this word to forestall any further emotional reaction you might have to the word punishment) is the person who has not made any mistake or sought to get any advantage.

That he has incidentally been handed a slight advantage by the mistakes of others is not a reason to now not only remove that advantage but DISADVANTAGE him further. Yes he gains slightly by having foreknowledge that the three people to his left will fold.

But it is a much bigger disadvantage that he has his raising ability crippled as he is tied to a particular raise or has his hand killed.

THAT's not fair.

Actually, since poker is a game based around captialising on the mistakes of others, I think this falls within the boundary quite well What does slansky say?

In all seriousness though I think this is a very good point and the person should not be disadvantages through no fault of his own.

As to flushys comment about knowing the pot etc etc. In self deal you rarely get that.